This is what I think the WoW models boils down to. Fast solo level to the cap, then raiding.

That's it. If you want to copy WoW, let people level VERY quickly, make grouping accelerate that leveling only slightly, then put raids at the end game.

What games have done a great job of copying WoW with a VERY fast solo friendly route to the level cap, then lots of raiding at the end?

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

This is what I think the WoW models boils down to. Fast solo level to the cap, then raiding.

That's it. If you want to copy WoW, let people level VERY quickly, make grouping accelerate that leveling only slightly, then put raids at the end game.

What games have done a great job of copying WoW with a VERY fast solo friendly route to the level cap, then lots of raiding at the end?

EQ2, RoM, AoC sorta. All of which are faster leveling than wow. Unless you do recruit a friend its still gonna take the average gamer a month to hit max level in wow and then half a month to get enough gear to do anything raid wise.

You describe what WoW is now but that was not how it started out.  At release there were far fewer quests, and a slower progression.  There was more focus on group play to level, because of low-mid level instances and the raiding was not really developed (BWL and Naxx were later additions).

It was not until a few years into the game that it became as you describe... really well into BC (the fast leveling part anyway).

I for one leveled rather slowly because I was an explorer/pvper... I remember running my level 35 hunter to the Badlands... from the south ... Burning Steppes was not a friendly place for a lvl 35

Skaroth

Originally posted by Frostbite05

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

This is what I think the WoW models boils down to. Fast solo level to the cap, then raiding.

That's it. If you want to copy WoW, let people level VERY quickly, make grouping accelerate that leveling only slightly, then put raids at the end game.

What games have done a great job of copying WoW with a VERY fast solo friendly route to the level cap, then lots of raiding at the end?

 

EQ2, RoM, AoC sorta. All of which are faster leveling than wow. Unless you do recruit a friend its still gonna take the average gamer a month to hit max level in wow and then half a month to get enough gear to do anything raid wise.

I'll agree that a month to cap is a pretty fair estimate. However, two weeks to gear a character is a bit quick for an "average" gamer. I'm not disagreeing that it can't be done, because it can, and it can be done more quickly than that. However, two weeks to run chain heroics in the LFG system (or even a pre-made group) to farm enough emblems for 4 piece tier 9, trinkets, jewelry, non-tiered slots, while still getting lucky enough to get a weapon from the RNG system is well beyond what could be considered average.

If we're talking about someone completely new to WoW, which I still run into fairly frequently, well the entire model gets thrown out for your average gamer.

Originally posted by Kaneth

Originally posted by Frostbite05

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

This is what I think the WoW models boils down to. Fast solo level to the cap, then raiding.

That's it. If you want to copy WoW, let people level VERY quickly, make grouping accelerate that leveling only slightly, then put raids at the end game.

What games have done a great job of copying WoW with a VERY fast solo friendly route to the level cap, then lots of raiding at the end?

 

EQ2, RoM, AoC sorta. All of which are faster leveling than wow. Unless you do recruit a friend its still gonna take the average gamer a month to hit max level in wow and then half a month to get enough gear to do anything raid wise.

 

I'll agree that a month to cap is a pretty fair estimate. However, two weeks to gear a character is a bit quick for an "average" gamer. I'm not disagreeing that it can't be done, because it can, and it can be done more quickly than that. However, two weeks to run chain heroics in the LFG system (or even a pre-made group) to farm enough emblems for 4 piece tier 9, trinkets, jewelry, non-tiered slots, while still getting lucky enough to get a weapon from the RNG system is well beyond what could be considered average.

If we're talking about someone completely new to WoW, which I still run into fairly frequently, well the entire model gets thrown out for your average gamer.

I think the definition of 'average' gamer is seriously skewed for most people here since they are veterans.  I am hardly an 'average' player and it still would take me more than a month to do the 1-80 progression and that's assuming that all I do is level and don't pursue other fun 'diversions'. 

As far as a new 80 gearing up to raid, that takes a long time for a casual.  You get on average 5 emblems per instance and it takes 30 emblems for the basic T9 items and 50 for helm, chest or pants.  It's 75 emblems if you want the non-set ilevel 245 gear.  So a casual player will get an emblem gear upgrade maybe once a week. 

People really should stop propagating the idea that the 'average' casual WoW player is a speed-leveling demon who grinds through levels and content every waking moment of the day.  Most will take their sweet time and have one or two days a week of more intense playtime and the rest of their online time take it easy.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

This is what I think the WoW models boils down to.

WoW is fun.  WoW is fun for a heck of a lot of people.  Do people want tedious camping or grinding?  No. 

The people have voted and not only with their feet, the people voted with their pocket books.

This thread should be in the WoW forum.

Originally posted by uquipu

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

This is what I think the WoW models boils down to.

 

WoW is fun.  WoW is fun for a heck of a lot of people.  Do people want tedious camping or grinding?  No. 

The people have voted and not only with their feet, the people voted with their pocket books.

This thread should be in the WoW forum.

 

It's good to know that you speak for all of us.
 

I'd say no game adequately copies what really makes WOW fun for me: controls and ability design.

Guild Wars is the only game* I can think of where the class/ability design surpasses WOW's, but GW is held back by other factors.

Some games approach the quality of overall combat experience (Darkfall being first-person-aiming is a big advantage) but inevitably they fall short in other areas (Darkfall's spells/skills are not well-designed, and in some cases are completely bland.)

I suppose this is my roundabout way of saying, "While those are critical points of WOW, they're not the reason for its success by far."  Wasn't my original intent for the post, but I suppose it's how I feel.  A bad game which has solo-leveling and raiding is still a bad game.

But yeah, if you look a little deeper there's some deep-rooted logic behind doing solo-leveling (with grouping being slightly better).  Enough different reasons that going into them here would make the post too long I think ;)

(* Speaking purely of 3rd Person Lock-Target games.  There are many examples of superior ability/class design in other genres.  Team Fortress 2 and Magic The Gathering pop to mind as superb class/ability design from other genres.)

Originally posted by Torik

Originally posted by Kaneth

Originally posted by Frostbite05

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

This is what I think the WoW models boils down to. Fast solo level to the cap, then raiding.

That's it. If you want to copy WoW, let people level VERY quickly, make grouping accelerate that leveling only slightly, then put raids at the end game.

What games have done a great job of copying WoW with a VERY fast solo friendly route to the level cap, then lots of raiding at the end?

 

EQ2, RoM, AoC sorta. All of which are faster leveling than wow. Unless you do recruit a friend its still gonna take the average gamer a month to hit max level in wow and then half a month to get enough gear to do anything raid wise.

 

I'll agree that a month to cap is a pretty fair estimate. However, two weeks to gear a character is a bit quick for an "average" gamer. I'm not disagreeing that it can't be done, because it can, and it can be done more quickly than that. However, two weeks to run chain heroics in the LFG system (or even a pre-made group) to farm enough emblems for 4 piece tier 9, trinkets, jewelry, non-tiered slots, while still getting lucky enough to get a weapon from the RNG system is well beyond what could be considered average.

If we're talking about someone completely new to WoW, which I still run into fairly frequently, well the entire model gets thrown out for your average gamer.

 

I think the definition of 'average' gamer is seriously skewed for most people here since they are veterans.  I am hardly an 'average' player and it still would take me more than a month to do the 1-80 progression and that's assuming that all I do is level and don't pursue other fun 'diversions'. 

As far as a new 80 gearing up to raid, that takes a long time for a casual.  You get on average 5 emblems per instance and it takes 30 emblems for the basic T9 items and 50 for helm, chest or pants.  It's 75 emblems if you want the non-set ilevel 245 gear.  So a casual player will get an emblem gear upgrade maybe once a week. 

People really should stop propagating the idea that the 'average' casual WoW player is a speed-leveling demon who grinds through levels and content every waking moment of the day.  Most will take their sweet time and have one or two days a week of more intense playtime and the rest of their online time take it easy.

With majority of the people that are new to WoW are usually friends of people who are higher level and want to progress to that level.  Unless they are leveling together.

With the quest helper, it's not that hard to level pretty fast.<-------seen a crap ton of players with this.....new and old.  Really boring IMO, but people want to level as fast as they can and this is the "1-80" button on their keyboard.

Originally posted by Angorim

Originally posted by uquipu

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

This is what I think the WoW models boils down to.

 

WoW is fun.  WoW is fun for a heck of a lot of people.  Do people want tedious camping or grinding?  No. 

The people have voted and not only with their feet, the people voted with their pocket books.

This thread should be in the WoW forum.

 

It's good to know that you speak for all of us.
 

I would think he speaks for the majority, seeing as how WoW does have the most subscriptions ever.

 WoW's leveling speed is not all that fast for a new person.

The people who level quickly are those who have already leveled a toon or two up to max.

A new person playing two to three hours a day, using only the default UI, no quest helper etc, maybe going to a battle ground occasionally, an instance occasionally would take two to three months to level to eighty.  Maybe even longer.

Originally posted by tehikk

Originally posted by Angorim

Originally posted by uquipu

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

This is what I think the WoW models boils down to.

 

WoW is fun.  WoW is fun for a heck of a lot of people.  Do people want tedious camping or grinding?  No. 

The people have voted and not only with their feet, the people voted with their pocket books.

This thread should be in the WoW forum.

 

It's good to know that you speak for all of us.
 

I would think he speaks for the majority, seeing as how WoW does have the most subscriptions ever.

I think the original poster points out one possible way to play wow.

If I had to boil down wow into a nutshell I would say it is a game that offers the largest variety of playstyle options and does it all in a very well crafted product that delivers exactly what it sets out to do.   From solo to group to raid to pve to pvp to casual to hardcore. 

Game developers continue to try to clone the gameplay of wow and that is why they are failing.  They need to emulate the business practice of how blizzard created wow.   Do not release the game until it is ready and make sure the features are fun.  If they are not fun, they need to be redesigned until they are fun or removed.

Originally posted by BoudahXL

Originally posted by tehikk

Originally posted by Angorim

Originally posted by uquipu

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

This is what I think the WoW models boils down to.

 

WoW is fun.  WoW is fun for a heck of a lot of people.  Do people want tedious camping or grinding?  No. 

The people have voted and not only with their feet, the people voted with their pocket books.

This thread should be in the WoW forum.

 

It's good to know that you speak for all of us.
 

I would think he speaks for the majority, seeing as how WoW does have the most subscriptions ever.

Britney Spears, sold millions of CD's so she must me a diva, she must have the greatest voice of all time? WoW is the pop of mmo's, it answers to non-gamers, casual, light mmo players. Gone are the days when you needed crowd control to complete a 5 men, when you had to have special gear for certain places. When classes had specialty no other classes had, basically the dumbed down the game to 3 classes like most 'popular' korean mmo's(tank-healer-dps) I think the new dungeon search system pretty much confirm it. And please don't take offense, there is nothing wrong with this picture... I mean movie theaters were full for Transformers, Harry Potters, etc... Are those bad movies? Hell yeah! Are those enjoyable movies? Hell yeah!

So what I'm hearing you say: you feel superior to WoW players?  

Originally posted by Kaneth

Originally posted by Frostbite05

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

This is what I think the WoW models boils down to. Fast solo level to the cap, then raiding.

That's it. If you want to copy WoW, let people level VERY quickly, make grouping accelerate that leveling only slightly, then put raids at the end game.

What games have done a great job of copying WoW with a VERY fast solo friendly route to the level cap, then lots of raiding at the end?

 

EQ2, RoM, AoC sorta. All of which are faster leveling than wow. Unless you do recruit a friend its still gonna take the average gamer a month to hit max level in wow and then half a month to get enough gear to do anything raid wise.

 

I'll agree that a month to cap is a pretty fair estimate. However, two weeks to gear a character is a bit quick for an "average" gamer. I'm not disagreeing that it can't be done, because it can, and it can be done more quickly than that. However, two weeks to run chain heroics in the LFG system (or even a pre-made group) to farm enough emblems for 4 piece tier 9, trinkets, jewelry, non-tiered slots, while still getting lucky enough to get a weapon from the RNG system is well beyond what could be considered average.

If we're talking about someone completely new to WoW, which I still run into fairly frequently, well the entire model gets thrown out for your average gamer.

I don't think that is accurate. It took me a lot more than a month (4-6 months) to get to level cap on my main. That was back when L70 is the cap. It took me (and i am prob faster than average in my guild) 2 weeks to get from 70 to 80 when WOTLK came out.

Two weeks to gear up? It depends on what gearing up means. If you only means enough to start doing some raiding (not ICC), then it should be fine.

Originally posted by BoudahXL

Originally posted by tehikk

Originally posted by Angorim

Originally posted by uquipu

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

This is what I think the WoW models boils down to.

 

WoW is fun.  WoW is fun for a heck of a lot of people.  Do people want tedious camping or grinding?  No. 

The people have voted and not only with their feet, the people voted with their pocket books.

This thread should be in the WoW forum.

 

It's good to know that you speak for all of us.
 

I would think he speaks for the majority, seeing as how WoW does have the most subscriptions ever.

Britney Spears, sold millions of CD's so she must me a diva, she must have the greatest voice of all time? WoW is the pop of mmo's, it answers to non-gamers, casual, light mmo players. Gone are the days when you needed crowd control to complete a 5 men, when you had to have special gear for certain places. When classes had specialty no other classes had, basically the dumbed down the game to 3 classes like most 'popular' korean mmo's(tank-healer-dps) I think the new dungeon search system pretty much confirm it. And please don't take offense, there is nothing wrong with this picture... I mean movie theaters were full for Transformers, Harry Potters, etc... Are those bad movies? Hell yeah! Are those enjoyable movies? Hell yeah!

As you point out at the end, it's about being fun and enjoyable. That Britney Spears sold millions of CDs does in no way mean she has a better voice that someone who sold a few thousand CDs. It only means that with all factors taken into account, it's what people found most fun and enjoyable to go buy (good marketing is a significant factor in this, especially as a CD is a single purchase, while an MMOG is a subscription).

And if someone brings up the McDonalds comparison, remember that something being "enjoyable" includes being accessible and not taking too much time in a single sitting/session - just like WoW. ;-)

WoW does all.

Hard Core PvP and Hard Core PvE all in the same game

It's a funny thing.

Most players now want fast leveling, they don't want to go back to the old days of grinding.  However, if you suggest a system with NO progression or lateral progression or some thinig like that, they'll give you a list of reasons why that's a terrible idea...???

These games are really stuck in the middle right now.  People cling to the leveling system even though there's VERY little character customization, no challenge in leveling, and no real reason for leveling.  Just going through the motions really.

I'd say reduce (or eliminate) leveling, add more complex character customization, and focus heavily on end game.

Originally posted by Tatum

It's a funny thing.

Most players now want fast leveling, they don't want to go back to the old days of grinding.  However, if you suggest a system with NO progression or lateral progression or some thinig like that, they'll give you a list of reasons why that's a terrible idea...???

These games are really stuck in the middle right now.  People cling to the leveling system even though there's VERY little character customization, no challenge in leveling, and no real reason for leveling.  Just going through the motions really.

I'd say reduce (or eliminate) leveling, add more complex character customization, and focus heavily on end game.

I agree with  most of this post, with the exception of your last bit, the focus on "endgame."

With no, or limited "leveling" there really is no need to focus on "endgame".  Endgame is a product (or consequense) of the leveling system. 

Customizing your character through skill points and use (ala AC and FE, though use did not increase your skill in AC).  Whatever your "endgame" will be is what your "leveling" should be and hopefully grinding mobs and quests is not your "endgame".  What I mean by that is that we should not have to do one thing to gain access to another... unless of course you are combining pve with pvp but that is a different dynamic.

Skaroth

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Kaneth

Originally posted by Frostbite05

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

This is what I think the WoW models boils down to. Fast solo level to the cap, then raiding.

That's it. If you want to copy WoW, let people level VERY quickly, make grouping accelerate that leveling only slightly, then put raids at the end game.

What games have done a great job of copying WoW with a VERY fast solo friendly route to the level cap, then lots of raiding at the end?

 

EQ2, RoM, AoC sorta. All of which are faster leveling than wow. Unless you do recruit a friend its still gonna take the average gamer a month to hit max level in wow and then half a month to get enough gear to do anything raid wise.

 

I'll agree that a month to cap is a pretty fair estimate. However, two weeks to gear a character is a bit quick for an "average" gamer. I'm not disagreeing that it can't be done, because it can, and it can be done more quickly than that. However, two weeks to run chain heroics in the LFG system (or even a pre-made group) to farm enough emblems for 4 piece tier 9, trinkets, jewelry, non-tiered slots, while still getting lucky enough to get a weapon from the RNG system is well beyond what could be considered average.

If we're talking about someone completely new to WoW, which I still run into fairly frequently, well the entire model gets thrown out for your average gamer.

 

I don't think that is accurate. It took me a lot more than a month (4-6 months) to get to level cap on my main. That was back when L70 is the cap. It took me (and i am prob faster than average in my guild) 2 weeks to get from 70 to 80 when WOTLK came out.

Two weeks to gear up? It depends on what gearing up means. If you only means enough to start doing some raiding (not ICC), then it should be fine.

Quoted for truth.

I think someone who is new to WoW and especially if they are new to MMOs would take a very long time to level to 80.

The people who level fast have already leveled a  character to 80.  They know the ropes.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

This is what I think the WoW models boils down to. Fast solo level to the cap, then raiding.

That's it. If you want to copy WoW, let people level VERY quickly, make grouping accelerate that leveling only slightly, then put raids at the end game.

What games have done a great job of copying WoW with a VERY fast solo friendly route to the level cap, then lots of raiding at the end?

That's the original WoW in a nutshell, but things have changed a bit since 2 expansions.  You don't necessarily have to raid these days, you can do single group instances for tokens/badges which you can turn in for great gear.  You can also do PvP be it battlegrounds or arena, and get great gear.

WoW in a nutshell is actually casual friendly leveling, with gameplay that caters to soloers, groupers, raiders, and PvP'ers.  It's strongest points have always been accessibility and choices.  Has there been a MMO that offers all that?  Not really.

Originally posted by Frostbite05 

EQ2, RoM, AoC sorta. All of which are faster leveling than wow. Unless you do recruit a friend its still gonna take the average gamer a month to hit max level in wow and then half a month to get enough gear to do anything raid wise.

Not true about the gear. You can gear for ICC 25 in a week, if you have the time to grind heroics.

Originally posted by Hrothmund

Originally posted by Frostbite05 

EQ2, RoM, AoC sorta. All of which are faster leveling than wow. Unless you do recruit a friend its still gonna take the average gamer a month to hit max level in wow and then half a month to get enough gear to do anything raid wise.

Not true about the gear. You can gear for ICC 25 in a week, if you have the time to grind heroics.

This is why he said 'average'.  You are looking at about 50 heroic instances for the badge gear alone and that is a lot of heroics for a the average casual player to do in even one month.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

This is what I think the WoW models boils down to. Fast solo level to the cap, then raiding.

That's it. If you want to copy WoW, let people level VERY quickly, make grouping accelerate that leveling only slightly, then put raids at the end game.

What games have done a great job of copying WoW with a VERY fast solo friendly route to the level cap, then lots of raiding at the end?

While I agree, many games have the same formula these days, I don't think anyone of them has done a good job at copying WOW, it is far and away superior to all of the wanna be's.

AOC, WAR, LotrO and even Aion (to a lesser extent due to a bit more grind) are just a few, but there are many more.

Don't look for the trend to change any time soon.  Every time a game varies from this formula too much you get a lot of complaints, as evidenced in games such as Aion and even Darkfall where players bemoan the long skill grind to compete with the veterans.

People claim to want a challenge, but in reality that's really not the case, they want to have fun playing a game casually.

Originally posted by Kyleran 

People claim to want a challenge, but in reality that's really not the case, they want to have fun playing a game casually.

 

 

That's so true these days.  You still see people cry for challenge, hardcore gameplay.   Yet the same people are the ones needing ingame plugins to announce boss alerts, the same people checking out strategies online before fighting anything, the same people that want hardcore PvP but quit 1 month after because they really can't handle it.

People want hardcore and a "challenge" but there are games out there that provide them, but yet they aren't playing them.  I do think for the most part people just want to have fun, and have something to do regardless of their gameplay styles.