Ask a hardcore PvPer - Pwnage Edition

Volume 1

Since a good portion of this board seems to be people who despise my playstyle, I thought I'd do a quick write up to explain why I play mmo's the way I do and hopefully persuade others to at least understand the playstyle.

So what exactly is a hardcore PvPer?

A hardcore PvPer is someone who's main goal in the game is to kill other players.  Almost every activity in game is done with that goal in mind.  Grinding, leveling, crafting, raiding, questing, guild politics, etc. are all done specifically to enhance the chances of kiling other players.  That doesn't mean that other activities are ignored, but typically, if it doesn't help me PvP or isn't PvP itself, I will ignore it or save it for a rainy day.

You just like watching player characters die?  Is that it?

No, we like the challenge and hopefully, the success of defeating other players.  That doesn't even have to mean physically killing the player.  Destroying your city, preventing you from harvesting resources, blocking your progression through content that might help you defeat us, etc.  It's a competition, and we want to do whatever we can (within the rules of the game) to win.

Sounds like you just like ruining other player's game......

Quite the opposite in fact.  If you are playing a game that allows us to kill you, destroy your stuff, and camp your spawns it is logical for us to assume that you know the risks of playing the game and accept the challenge.  You don't sign up for the football team if you don't ever want to get hit, so why would you play a game where others can affect your game, both positivley and negatively, if you don't want them to?  In almost every game there are ways to avoid PvP and other player conflict, it is up to you to act on those.  Don't blame us for attacking something that we are able to attack.  We're just playing our game that we purchased.

But you're all 1337 speaking teenagers.....

No, the ones you notice are 1337 speaking 15 year olds.  There are plenty of us who are well rounded, completely mature people.  I notice the borderline suicidal 47 year old PvE only roleplayer cybering his alt character behind the auction house far more than I notice your average every day PvEer.  Extremes are always louder and therefore cause generalizations.  That's not to say that I won't use the occasional "Owned" here and there, but only when provoked.

Go play and FPS game if you want to kill other players.

This statement is one that is in almost every PvE vs. PvP debate.  At first it angered me, but now I realize that it's just so absurd of an argument that taking it seriously would be doing myself a disservice.  It makes zero sense to tell someone to play a game in a different genre.  We're playing mmos because we like the MM part of it.  We like the combat system, we like the world, we like the community, etc.  Why should we go play an FPS game, but you shouldn't leave and go play a non-mmo RPG game? 

Summary

- We want to win.

- Winning = killing/beating you.

- Winning is encouraged by the game.  Loot, stat bonuses, titles, etc.

- We don't ruin games.  We ruin your game, but through no fault of our own.

Replies

Originally posted by johnmatthais

Also, any "hardcore gamer" knows spawn camping is a noob tactic. Some hardcore gamer you are. Anyone enough into PvP to call themselves "hardcore" has at least that much pride not to do it.

Spawn camping can be a legitimate tactic depending on the situation.  If you're doing it to prevent an enemy from returning to the battlefield to stop your guild from capturing a city, it's a solid tactic.  If you're doing it just to make someone angry, then yes, it is noobish.  As long as the practice isn't against the game's rules, it's fair game.

Originally posted by Tatum

Question: where is the "challenge" in killing other players in a game whose combat system is based mostly around gear/level, rather than player skill?

The challenge comes from the coordination, planning, and strategy.  Yes having better gear will help you, which is why any decent PvPer will also be pretty knowledgeable in PvE and crafting.  If you know how to get an item that your opponent can't, you have the upper hand.  Equipping an army is a big part of any conflict.  As for levels, I tend to ignore low level players.  I will kill them if they are in a guild that mine is at war with or i, but if they are just a random player I'll probably let them go.  In most level based games, the real pvp doesn't start until max level. 
 

The End

Join me next time for Volume 2 - "Why time playing is directly proportional to skill obtained."

Fist of the Empire sucks, just sayin. =D

I expected to be able to post questions and get answers.

Seems like you just interviewed yourself with a bunch of softball questions.

Originally posted by Lexiscat

I expected to be able to post questions and get answers.

Seems like you just interviewed yourself with a bunch of softball questions.

Yeah, seconded. I don't understand the point of this. In fact, based on some of the responses, they aren't even valid opinions from other "hardcore PvPers"

Also, any "hardcore gamer" knows spawn camping is a noob tactic. Some hardcore gamer you are. Anyone enough into PvP to call themselves "hardcore" has at least that much pride not to do it.

Originally posted by Lexiscat

I expected to be able to post questions and get answers.

Seems like you just interviewed yourself with a bunch of softball questions.

Agreed.

Would be cool to have someone do that, though - a Q n A with PvPers who are considered experts or 'top dogs' at their game.

Originally posted by Lexiscat

I expected to be able to post questions and get answers.

Seems like you just interviewed yourself with a bunch of softball questions.

LOL

Question:  where is the "challenge" in killing other players in a game whose combat system is based mostly around gear/level, rather than player skill?

 Go to Compton, Los Angeles, take a street corner away from the drug dealers and try to hold it.

That's hardcore.  What you're talking about is mashing buttons.

Originally posted by Tatum

Originally posted by Lexiscat

I expected to be able to post questions and get answers.

Seems like you just interviewed yourself with a bunch of softball questions.

 

LOL

Question:  where is the "challenge" in killing other players in a game whose combat system is based mostly around gear/level, rather than player skill?

When everyone has similar gear and is the same level, the only thing left is skill.  Knowledge of all the game mechanics/classes/abilities, how quickly you can respond and counter, how well you work with a team, and how quickly you can actually click all those buttons...its all skill.  The best challenge is when your opponent has better gear than you and you still win.  Maybe you beat him because he sucked?  Who knows.  But you still won when the odds weren't in your favor.  

Originally posted by uquipu

 Go to Compton, Los Angeles, take a street corner away from the drug dealers and try to hold it.

That's hardcore.  What you're talking about is mashing buttons.

 

Lol. Very good. However one thing I do agree with is if people play these types of games they should know what to expect .

Originally posted by Dominisi

Fist of the Empire sucks, just sayin. =D

You die to them or something? I dont get it...

Proof or cry more!

 where have you been OP? since early daoc days I havent found a single hardcore pvper in any game released in the last 5 years.

apparently except for me everybody seems more interested in the griefing/gangbanging part of the pvp (5 high lvls beating on a lowbie) and run with the tail between their legs at the sheer glance of a even fight on the horizon.

Dunno about yo, but nowadays challenge risk and skill is something that the selftitled hardcores avoid at all costs

Originally posted by Lexiscat

I expected to be able to post questions and get answers.

Seems like you just interviewed yourself with a bunch of softball questions.

I think I explained my motives pretty well, but feel free to ask some "hardball" questions.  I'll edit my original post with answers from myself and other PvPers.

Originally posted by Sabiancym

Ask a hardcore PvPer - Pwnage Edition

Volume 1

 

Since a good portion of this board seems to be people who despise my playstyle, I thought I'd do a quick write up to explain why I play mmo's the way I do and hopefully persuade others to at least understand the playstyle.

 

 

So what exactly is a hardcore PvPer?

A hardcore PvPer is someone who's main goal in the game is to kill other players.  Almost every activity in game is done with that goal in mind.  Grinding, leveling, crafting, raiding, questing, guild politics, etc. are all done specifically to enhance the chances of kiling other players.  That doesn't mean that other activities are ignored, but typically, if it doesn't help me PvP or isn't PvP itself, I will ignore it or save it for a rainy day.

 

You just like watching player characters die?  Is that it?

No, we like the challenge and hopefully, the success of defeating other players.  That doesn't even have to mean physically killing the player.  Destroying your city, preventing you from harvesting resources, blocking your progression through content that might help you defeat us, etc.  It's a competition, and we want to do whatever we can (within the rules of the game) to win.

 

Sounds like you just like ruining other player's game......

Quite the opposite in fact.  If you are playing a game that allows us to kill you, destroy your stuff, and camp your spawns it is logical for us to assume that you know the risks of playing the game and accept the challenge.  You don't sign up for the football team if you don't ever want to get hit, so why would you play a game where others can affect your game, both positivley and negatively, if you don't want them to?  In almost every game there are ways to avoid PvP and other player conflict, it is up to you to act on those.  Don't blame us for attacking something that we are able to attack.  We're just playing our game that we purchased.

 

But you're all 1337 speaking teenagers.....

No, the ones you notice are 1337 speaking 15 year olds.  There are plenty of us who are well rounded, completely mature people.  I notice the borderline suicidal 47 year old PvE only roleplayer cybering his alt character behind the auction house far more than I notice your average every day PvEer.  Extremes are always louder and therefore cause generalizations.  That's not to say that I won't use the occasional "Owned" here and there, but only when provoked.

 

Go play and FPS game if you want to kill other players.

This statement is one that is in almost every PvE vs. PvP debate.  At first it angered me, but now I realize that it's just so absurd of an argument that taking it seriously would be doing myself a disservice.  It makes zero sense to tell someone to play a game in a different genre.  We're playing mmos because we like the MM part of it.  We like the combat system, we like the world, we like the community, etc.  Why should we go play an FPS game, but you shouldn't leave and go play a non-mmo RPG game? 

 

 

Summary

- We want to win.

- Winning = killing/beating you.

- Winning is encouraged by the game.  Loot, stat bonuses, titles, etc.

- We don't ruin games.  We ruin your game, but through no fault of our own.

 

 

The End

 

Join me next time for Volume 2 - "Why time playing is directly proportional to skill obtained."

Huh?

By your very actions you "ruin" the game for many, many players.

I personally have very strong opinions on "hardcore" PvPers. I enjoy PvP very much, having said that I enjoy it more when there is a reason behind it in the overall scheme of the game. DAoC for example, taking the keeps and relics would add bonuses to whatever realm you played. That is an excellent reason for PvP. Killing NPCs so that enemy players cannot advance their characters progression, to me at least, is just another way to grief other players.

A flat out battle between rival guilds is an excellent chance at a fun PvP experience. Jacking some guy 5 on 1 while he is fighting a spider is weak. Camping a city or base you and your friends have just conquered is perfectly fine. Camping the guy 10 levels below you is cheese.

The majority of "hardcore" PvPers I have dealt with since day one usually act like donkies. The entire, "I am the wolf and you are the sheep" mentality is freaking retarded. The tough talk on forums and in game is ridiculous. The overuse  of the word "carebear", another ridiculous thing tossed about by "hardcore" PvPers. 

Anyway, like I stated, I do love good PvP as long as there is a legitimate reason for it. If it is just done to prove some form of cyber dominance just for the reason of cyber dominance then it is boring and yes, it can ruin the fun for other players, which is one thing that I think the "hardcore" forget. We all pay to have fun in these games, not get hounded by someone out to prove they can hit their keys better than the next guy.

Hardcore PvPers who can 1v3+ people and still have a noticeable amount of health are fine.
Wannabe hardcore PvPers who run after a ganked dude whispers them with: "Let me bring my main" or bring their clan if they can't properly gank someone are not.

Originally posted by Slampig

Huh?

 

By your very actions you "ruin" the game for many, many players.

 

I personally have very strong opinions on "hardcore" PvPers. I enjoy PvP very much, having said that I enjoy it more when there is a reason behind it in the overall scheme of the game. DAoC for example, taking the keeps and relics would add bonuses to whatever realm you played. That is an excellent reason for PvP. Killing NPCs so that enemy players cannot advance their characters progression, to me at least, is just another way to grief other players.

A flat out battle between rival guilds is an excellent chance at a fun PvP experience. Jacking some guy 5 on 1 while he is fighting a spider is weak. Camping a city or base you and your friends have just conquered is perfectly fine. Camping the guy 10 levels below you is cheese.

The majority of "hardcore" PvPers I have dealt with since day one usually act like donkies. The entire, "I am the wolf and you are the sheep" mentality is freaking retarded. The tough talk on forums and in game is ridiculous. The overuse  of the word "carebear", another ridiculous thing tossed about by "hardcore" PvPers. 

Anyway, like I stated, I do love good PvP as long as there is a legitimate reason for it. If it is just done to prove some form of cyber dominance just for the reason of cyber dominance then it is boring and yes, it can ruin the fun for other players, which is one thing that I think the "hardcore" forget. We all pay to have fun in these games, not get hounded by someone out to prove they can hit their keys better than the next guy.

That sentence means that we ruin other players games because they don't like the way we are playing.  We aren't out to intentially harm someone's gaming experience, but how is it our fault if someone doesn't like an intended gameplay mechanic?  If I get angry at people roleplaying because it ruins the story I'm roleplaying, who is ruining who's game?

I probably should have been more specific when I was talking about killing other player's npcs and camping players.  I didn't mean your every day opposing faction player who is just minding their own business.  I meant someone who you have a history with.  Someone who is in a guild that you are consistantly fighting with.

It's a bit hard to explain since a lot of people here probably play games where they see 50 new people a day, where as I usually play games where I know almost every guild on the server and encounter the same people often.  A game like darkfall or pre-nge SWG.

 Not hard to explain it at all. I have been running the same guild since March of 2000, I see a lot of the same people in-game everyday. 

Just because a person plays on a PvP server or in a PvP game does not mean they have to be harassed the entire time they are logged in. Darkfall is a prime example of the type of donkey I was referring to.  I don't see it happens as much now since the majority of players have skilled up and moved into the clan warfare, I am referring to the players that would jump in front of other players as they tried to kill a goblin or whatever mob they were fighting at the time. Or the ones that use that exploit or whatever it is, at the banks Those types of players are not "hardcore" although they would use your argument that the game supports it so why not.

It is the people that use craptastic tactics like those above that ruin games and generally give the PvP crowd a bad name.

Heh, Darkfall is still a walk in the park compared to the harshness of Lineage/Lineage 2 pre-WoWisation.
The amount of griefing options in those games were unlimited(in terms of game rules and gameplay) especially with the former death penalties(in Darkfall you'd lose your gear on death, in L2 you could lose months worth of 8+h grinding/day, delevel, lose gear worth of months of pure mat grinding, etc) but they were limited by this little thing called community.
Killing a random newbie player in an influent clan would meant a forceful stay in town for a few weeks, because the bonds in these clans went pretty high, to a point where even the newbiest player was getting a sweet, long revenge on the ganker, with the help of his clan.
But let's not kid ourselves, most self-proclaimed hardcore players are in fact those who gank people who are doing their own bussiness. Some of them will even get much higher, to the point of letting the griefed player alive, but making leveling/speaking with NPCs impossible because of mob healing(another fun feature in L2), verbal griefing, AoE mob killing, etc.
I know the true hardcore players out there are actually amazing players, but most of the time, the "hardcore" players are those who want to humiliate normal players using several methods, ingame and on game forums, for their personal satisfaction.

---

Originally posted by Sabiancym

 

That sentence means that we ruin other players games because they don't like the way we are playing.  We aren't out to intentially harm someone's gaming experience, but how is it our fault if someone doesn't like an intended gameplay mechanic?  If I get angry at people roleplaying because it ruins the story I'm roleplaying, who is ruining who's game?
...

---

 The difference is that you directly influence the gameplay of other players by directly affecting their character. Someone roleplay in a way that you don't like does not directly affect you in any way. You can choose to ignore said player or players roleplaying, where as you can't ignore another player chasing you down and killing you. In other words, their influence on your gameplay is intangible, and minimal at best, where as going out and chasing down and killing another player's character is tangible and does have a large effect on their gameplay. It's comparing apples to elephants.

Furthermore, the excuse that it's okay simply because the ruleset allows it is also bunk. Ultima Online was created in part as a social experiment, to see how people behaved when they did not have restrictions. The lesson learned? That there are a lot of people who will be downright nasty when they can get away with it, which is why Ultima Online was eventually given large non-PvP ruleset areas, because it turned out that many players would abuse the open rulseset, and ruin the game for many other players. An open ruleset is not meant as a free ticket to gank or grief, it's simply become that because too many people have used it as an excuse, so many developers have been forced to adopt PvE rulesets because it's too much of a headache to try to impede the group of PvPers that take things too far.

 "Furthermore, the excuse that it's okay simply because the ruleset allows it is also bunk. Ultima Online was created in part as a social experiment, to see how people behaved when they did not have restrictions. The lesson learned? That there are a lot of people who will be downright nasty when they can get away with it, which is why Ultima Online was eventually given large non-PvP ruleset areas, because it turned out that many players would abuse the open rulseset, and ruin the game for many other players. An open ruleset is not meant as a free ticket to gank or grief, it's simply become that because too many people have used it as an excuse, so many developers have been forced to adopt PvE rulesets because it's too much of a headache to try to impede the group of PvPers that take things too far."

A vast majority of MMO players have no vested interest in justice. Why would they? The game developers can come up with silly and generic systems that try to create or encourage justice, but it never works. Where there is no justice, there is simply anarchy. Some players may like that and some might not.