It entirely depends on the structure of PvP.

The 'quality' PvPers tend to prefer games where PvP has meaning. You don't simply kill other players just because you can. You fight other groups of players for territory, resources, etc. They also tend to respect other PvPers and act with some honor, i.e. ignoring someone who accidentally stumbled into somewhere they didn't want to be (i.e. a PvP conflict zone), or giving their enemy the opportunity to rez and leave after having defeated them.

Then there's the "I just want to kill other people" PvPer who wants to lay waste to everyone around them, just because. They go around, killing pretty much any player they can, even the defenseless lowbies. Why? Because it makes them feel powerful.

The latter are the problem. They're the ones who whine when their desire to endlessly gank isn't fulfilled... which is why we've ended up with battle grounds, arenas, or other similar concepts, in many MMOs that have PvP. All of which are watered down, artificial, and mostly meaningless excuses to PvP. The latter also complains where there are actual consequences in PvP, because it impedes them from feeling powerful when they do eventually piss the wrong people off.

Eve is an example that seems to cater to the more sensible and purposeful PvPer. WoW on the other hand, is the other side of the spectrum.

I think an MMO that focuses on any single gameplay dynamic is fail.  MMO's are supposed to be persistant worlds. What world has one focus? MMO's should be trying to create as broad and as deep an experience as possible.

I rarely hear actual PvPers complaining about the community in a PvP mmo.  Usually it's PvEers who dabble in PvP who do the complaining.

I personally think the PvE only game communities are terrible.

Originally posted by Sabiancym

I rarely hear actual PvPers complaining about the community in a PvP mmo.  Usually it's PvEers who dabble in PvP who do the complaining.

 

I personally think the PvE only game communities are terrible.

Generally speaking a PvP doesn't have to rely on others, while a PvE player does, so it's easier to get pissed off at someone being bad when you actually need them to be good.

I'd have to agree with this :D

For an MMO the most enjoyable PvP I've found has been in web empire building games.   Here everyone has a directed focus, are willing to fight, and "tend" to keep a better humor than other MMOs(Which is hilarous because you're losing a month of time with a loss, rather than an hour).

In "normal" MMOs areana PvP is more fun, World PvP for territory control can be pretty boring BUT it can seriously  drive other parts of the game making the game as a whole more interesting.

Originally posted by Luminaro

Originally posted by Sabiancym

I rarely hear actual PvPers complaining about the community in a PvP mmo.  Usually it's PvEers who dabble in PvP who do the complaining.

 

I personally think the PvE only game communities are terrible.

 

Generally speaking a PvP doesn't have to rely on others, while a PvE player does, so it's easier to get pissed off at someone being bad when you actually need them to be good.

I'd have to agree with this :D

I'd say it's the other way around.  Most solo mmo players I've met have been PvEers.  You don't need others to go out and kill mobs, only to do group runs which not everyone even wants to do.

Most PvP games requre groups to survive.  There aren't many games where you can around by yourself and not be steamrolled by a passing group.

PvP mmos have the same community as PvE mmos. Most people realize that PvP is the fake. You don't really die when your toon gets rolled. It's just a video game just like the PvE one is. None of the in game victories or losses port to RL. So don't be scared of the game, and feel you have to hide your fear away on a message board. Just play what you like and shut up about the other.

Originally posted by X3NO

Community.

 

I admit I never played DAOC which is often touted as the best PvP MMO of all time, having played WAR and AION after the good old days of cooperative PvE in WoW.

 

I'm tired of PvP communities of small children and their massive egos. In AION it is neccessary for legions to cooperate to defend/attack fortresses and use their artifacts to aid other legions. For which there is little incentive. Of course this just ends up as a load of arguments and QQ on the official forums.

 

People think PvP requires much more 'skillz' than PvE, when actually latency, PC spec and class balance play the major role.

 

In a cooperative PvE game you are able to join a good guild of people you like and it is not necessary - if you dont wish to - to speak to anyone outside that guild. Which can make the experience far more pleasant and less depressing.

 

IMO PvP MMO's have the worst communities, and the need for so many players to coordinate generally means drama and having to deal with a load of complete idiots.

 

 

Eve online is a pvp game and, they were awarded best community of 2009. So how do you explain that?

I think PvP games do not do as well is because they never turn out as awesome and epic as people hype them up to be.

I mean when people see things like FFA PvP and seiges they think some really stupendous war will occur between nations and lead to many glorious battles etc.  But in real life the motivations for battle are not that deep nor are the battles nearly that epic, most the like it is just gank squads, if there is a raid on a town it isn't as organized or as awesome as people had hoped.  Then you realize you mostly fight just to kill people and steal their things, and maybe take territory to get more resources to make things.

But it is a far cry from what people had hoped it would have been.

With PvE you largely know what you are getting the quality of the content is not as dependent as on what other people are doing as a PvP game is.  Not saying PvP games do not do well because of the community but because the actions of players do not always produce as interesting situations as would be desired.

In PVE you always end up with script/macros so you can take follow on a player and just spam 1 button that makes everything you should do... in worst case scenarios you can even use auto clicker spamming that macro making you go through a whole raid without touching a single button.. (yes I've done it before..)

At least thats not possible in pvp ^^

Originally posted by Little11

In PVE you always end up with script/macros so you can take follow on a player and just spam 1 button that makes everything you should do... in worst case scenarios you can even use auto clicker spamming that macro making you go through a whole raid without touching a single button.. (yes I've done it before..)

At least thats not possible in pvp ^^

In any meaningful PvE and well designed PvE, doing this will either get you killed for not avoiding damage, or dropped from group because you're doing a fraction of the damage that everyone else is. Oh and you'll quickly wipe a group if you're trying to do this as a tank or healer.

PvPers claiming that PvE is simple, are the ones who have never done any challenging or meaningful group PvE. In fact, most players I've run into that spout how PvP takes so much more skill than PvE, tend to get eaten alive in the more difficult PvE encounters. Apparently the threat mechanic is too difficult to grasp for most of them.

 The barrier of entry has always seemed to be a lot harder to reach within PvE games. What I have noticed in most PvP games is that you will most likely be destroyed going at it alone, however you can still contribute to PvP groups significantly unlike PvE. I have also noticed that going into the intense side of PvE (mostly raiding content) has required a large amount of dedication and time in comparison to a PvP game. I have spent a few months playing World of Warcraft to get my character to the max level only to find out I have to "prepare" for raid content, then its on to finding a group and guild to play with.. not to mention timezone. I just could not dedicate my life around a video game. In PvP, their raids are much quicker and are usually built by pick-me up groups (atleast from what I have encountered in EVE online). The reason for this could be the unpredictability of people whereas within a PvE scenario you have to prepare for the concrete strategy in place, ontop of that the encounter REQUIRES a number of people to complete (minus the people who have done it 100 times a day and can do it with half the amount).

PvP side has the exploits, glitches, hackers, etc. Mainly a big group of people who have nothing else to do but ruin your time. However, it's the rulset that causes this and there can be a PvP game with the exact opposite. The only PvP game I have found that can achieve a good community and give both sides of PvE and PvP a good helping hand is EVE online. World of Warcraft is close, but its barrier of entry destroys it.

In the end you have to remember if you give any player (or most players), no matter if it's a dedicated PvP or PvE game, the tools to ruin other people's time, they will do it in a heartbeat. It just happens that PvP gives these tools right out of the box and that is why it is never recommended to go for a pure PvP game nowadays (or atleast that's what jesse says in his game design book!).

Thanks for calling any pvp enthusiast an ‘idiot’, X3NO. 

Pretty much ‘enough said’ with that ignorant statement of yours alone.

I think the reason PvP games tend to "fail" in people's eyes is because everyone, in what people here call an "MMO", aren't all there to PvP.

There you go the simplest answer.

for open pvp to work just going to get say a castle or whats not isnt enough

you always need a neutral faction that hate both side equally that is always in the way

because if you only pvp it gets boring if you only pve it gets boring but when you got say a raid to do and both faction are on the map

and both side knows this raid by itself isnt easy to do and they they add the pvp factor let me tell you it gets fun

but there as to be reward for every player be it a drop from pvp kill(that arent lost by player)or pve

there as to be incentive to go at it.why do you think player go in icecrown citadel  for loot

so those instanced raid could easy be raid both faction have access to same time same place every 3 hour say like wg

why just pve or they could have some part of the citadel like this blizzard just doesnt do it anymore and thats it

its pve OR pvp!only world raid dragon at lvl 60 if they are still there player can enjoy the raid and the pvp toguether but since there are no incentive to go why bother

check onixia was unpopular raised her to lvl 80 now everybody go doen her

she was dead at lvl 60 before lol.

Originally posted by ryman

 The barrier of entry has always seemed to be a lot harder to reach within PvE games. What I have noticed in most PvP games is that you will most likely be destroyed going at it alone, however you can still contribute to PvP groups significantly unlike PvE. I have also noticed that going into the intense side of PvE (mostly raiding content) has required a large amount of dedication and time in comparison to a PvP game. I have spent a few months playing World of Warcraft to get my character to the max level only to find out I have to "prepare" for raid content, then its on to finding a group and guild to play with.. not to mention timezone. I just could not dedicate my life around a video game. In PvP, their raids are much quicker and are usually built by pick-me up groups (atleast from what I have encountered in EVE online). The reason for this could be the unpredictability of people whereas within a PvE scenario you have to prepare for the concrete strategy in place, ontop of that the encounter REQUIRES a number of people to complete (minus the people who have done it 100 times a day and can do it with half the amount)

When did EVE change so much?  When I played organized PvP was all in-corp/in-alliance since you could never trust that someone was not actually a spy for the other side and/or was gonna sabotage you.  It was way more organized then the pick-up mentality of WoW's PvP.  If you tried to go into EVE PvP without a lot or preparation and dedication you would be demolished. 

Originally posted by X3NO

Community.

 

I admit I never played DAOC which is often touted as the best PvP MMO of all time, having played WAR and AION after the good old days of cooperative PvE in WoW.

 

I'm tired of PvP communities of small children and their massive egos. In AION it is neccessary for legions to cooperate to defend/attack fortresses and use their artifacts to aid other legions. For which there is little incentive. Of course this just ends up as a load of arguments and QQ on the official forums.

 

People think PvP requires much more 'skillz' than PvE, when actually latency, PC spec and class balance play the major role.

 

In a cooperative PvE game you are able to join a good guild of people you like and it is not necessary - if you dont wish to - to speak to anyone outside that guild. Which can make the experience far more pleasant and less depressing.

 

IMO PvP MMO's have the worst communities, and the need for so many players to coordinate generally means drama and having to deal with a load of complete idiots.

 

 

Planetside is a PvP MMO and has an amazing community.

Originally posted by X3NO

Community.

 

I admit I never played DAOC which is often touted as the best PvP MMO of all time, having played WAR and AION after the good old days of cooperative PvE in WoW.

It's ok to admit that 1) you aren't good at PvP, 2) PvP is not your style/preference of gameplay, 3) you get angry when you die, especially when the opposing player laughs at you.

Other than that, having played so many games in the past 10 years, ranging from PvE to PvP to a bit of PvE & PvP, I can say community is bad all around.  You just have to find the right guild that works for you, the right crowd of people.  You just have to play the game that suits your playstyle.  If you don't like PvP, stop playing PvP, stop playing on a PvP server.

I ran a WoW guild 2 years ago, on a PvP server and we primarily did PvP.  The guild evolved into a raid guild because people wanted it, and 90% of my guild consisted of people who admitted they do not like PvP, do not know how to fight unpredictable real people, do not function well in a mouse-look fast action situation, etc.. Yet they played on a PvP server, and they complained constantly about dying and made up all sorts of stupid stories about how someone shouldn't be able to do this, they shouldn't be able to do that.

So my suggestion is if you don't like PvP, please stop playing PvP MMO's.  Go find a PvE MMO, since they have the greatest community and all, and go play it.  Don't blame PvP for human behavior.  These same bad individuals, the few bad apples, will still spam general chat with crap in PvE games. These same individuals will still ninja loot and train mobs in dungeons/instances.  It has nothing to do with PvP or PvE.

 Why PVE MMO's are fail. 

boring ass cry baby carebears like you 

In order to have a truly massive mmo experience, people who play pve NEED people who play pvp, and vice versa.  You don't have to like the style that's not your preference, but don't make the mistake of thinking you don't need them.  Community is key to a great mmo, and without the pvpers you don't have a community.  Well, at least not a very diverse one.

That being said, a mmo made just for pvpers (or even worse just for gankers) is flawed from the start.  Pve players may need pvpers in a diverse mmo, but pvpers REALLY NEED pve players in a pvp focused mmo.  Otherwise, what fun is a bunch of high levels who have no low levels to gank?