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News & Features Discussion  » Champions Online: Progress Since Launch Interview

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33 posts found
  Azareal

Novice Member

Joined: 7/02/04
Posts: 152

12/14/09 6:46:07 PM#21

Well, Roper has some of the facts right although there are issues which he has failed to bring up. I just canceled last Sunday so here's my take :

1.   Technical - There are issues with the connectivity right now. We get people being disconnected, serious lag, rubber-banding, long load times (my max before I logged out was over 25 minutes to log in), inability to get past the patcher, patcher crashing (and no one on CO's side knows it's crashed for an extended period of time), inability to connect to login servers, etcetc. Apparently all these issues relate to my isp or my computer so I have been advised. Actually, it supposedly relates to all the affected users isps irrespective of whether they are in the UK, Europe, Australia, USA or Asia. Just have a look through the PC & technical issues forum on their website and you'll see what I mean.

2.   Nemesis Update - I wouldn't know to comment since I can't group since the launch in September because I get seriously horrible lag whenever I group with anyone. Apparently this is caused by my Nvidia 9600, with and without latest drivers. How do you like that guys ? Forced solo play lol.

3.   Powers - Ok, this was true. They were seriously unbalanced at launch and the devs are currently trying their level best to rectify this. What caused a big ruckus was the wildly swinging nerf bats that came out in their initial attempts to fix things. There was literally no such thing as "Ok guys, this power is unbalanced, maybe we can tweak it here, buff it there and add this other thing."; It was all "Ack ! This is wrong. Get rid of it." It was only very recently that the devs have finally sat down with the gen pop and tried to balance things out.

4.   Content - Yup, seriously lacking. CO is basically a stand-alone game played on a big server with other people you can chat with. 90% of the content is soloable. In fact I even soloed a few lairs where it's supposed to be meant for a 5-person team. The holiday content is, shall we say, slightly 'hohum'. The Halloween event was a big let-down for me. There was simply no challenge to it and there was also basically no real reward at the end. Gimme a bright shiny star to stick on my cape at least. I do admit that I didn't finish the entire event since I didn't do pvp. 2 reasons for this - (1) I don't really pvp and (2) I can't group remember, so pvp would likely be just me bending over every time I tried.

I do agree with the other posters here in that CO does have potential. The designers really need to take a step back and think of not how it can measure up to CoH but how to surpass it.

  ArcAngel3

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/25/06
Posts: 2941

Momento Mori

12/14/09 8:40:38 PM#22
Originally posted by Sortis
Originally posted by qombi

I never gave it a chance because there is an item shop in it and it is P2P. That is an immediate no play for me.

yeah...well what we should all take from this is...item shops are dumb in P2P!


 

I follow the news releases about this game because it interests me.  I'm still sitting on the sidelines because of the item shop that offers things like respecs and performance enhancement (correct me if I'm wrong).

I think there are probably a lot of people on the sidelines because of the subscription fee, plus extra for respec, plus extra for enhancing items.  It doesn't matter if these items are available in game because this can be easily manipulated (E.G. the ingame option can be made dull, repetitive, too difficult, too long etc.).  If this happens, people are going to be herded into the item shop to avoid the grind.  That's a non-starter for me.

Costume pieces in an item shop (things that don't affect gameplay) are fine with me btw.  Fix this issue, and I'd give it a try.  I'm not touching it otherwise.

It also sounds like launch was buggy and imbalanced, and that significant rebalancing was done after release.  Those issues bite MMOs in the backside all the time, and it would be nice if companies learned from the history.  I suppose all they can do now is admit the error and try to make improvements with player input.

Listen to the players about priority fixes, don't mess up their progress, and stick with purely cosmetic RMT items (no enhancements or respecs) and you got me.  Otherwise, it just sounds like a hassle and a money pit, not a fun entertainment service.

  GrayGhost79

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/30/08
Posts: 4885

12/14/09 8:46:55 PM#23
Originally posted by Mandalore

CO is a good game - but not for a monthly subscription.

A lot of instacing (and/or Layers), repetative missions and a bad balancing.

Make it F2P (there is already a Itemshop - so only release 80% of the new costumes thru the shop) and the playerbase will grow.

At the last free weekend i played it some hours and then i logged out and played Borderlands or WAR (same instant action but better game-flow).


 

This is sadly how most feel about CO, this is of course including me. I got hooked on the game durring open beta due to the freedom on what I could create. Sadly the game just wasn't very fun or challenging so the majority of the fun was in creating the toons not actually playing them. For the first run through the game it wasn't to bad, the second run through was more than enough and I pretty much had my fill of the game after that. I tried sticking it out and focusing on PvP but even that got to a point where I wasn't really having fun any more. It's far more repetetive than I expect an MMO to be. No variation at all really.

CO would have made a killer single player console game and would have been worth every penny. It has about the expected garunteed play time you would expect from a single player console game so that is probably a large part of it. CO requires just shy of 50 hours to hit the end. They have added a little here and there but it's still not even up to what I would consider par for an MMO at launch. 

One day the game could really be killer but it would require a ton of work and possibly a relaunch or an NGE type of overhaul. 

When DCUO launches CO needs to outshine it by a great deal and I just don't see that happening. CO just needs to much work. 

 

I will check back in on it every few months but I couldn't even stick out my 6 month sub, I probably have 3 months left and I can't bring myself to log in still so I simply canceled and uninstalled. 

 

Good costumization, definetly worth the initial buy, but sadly the rest of the game comes up extremely short and it definetly isn't worth a monthly sub. 

 

But this is just imho.  

  Azareal

Novice Member

Joined: 7/02/04
Posts: 152

12/14/09 8:59:49 PM#24
Originally posted by GrayGhost79
Originally posted by Mandalore

CO is a good game - but not for a monthly subscription.

A lot of instacing (and/or Layers), repetative missions and a bad balancing.

Make it F2P (there is already a Itemshop - so only release 80% of the new costumes thru the shop) and the playerbase will grow.

At the last free weekend i played it some hours and then i logged out and played Borderlands or WAR (same instant action but better game-flow).


 

This is sadly how most feel about CO, this is of course including me. I got hooked on the game durring open beta due to the freedom on what I could create. Sadly the game just wasn't very fun or challenging so the majority of the fun was in creating the toons not actually playing them. For the first run through the game it wasn't to bad, the second run through was more than enough and I pretty much had my fill of the game after that. I tried sticking it out and focusing on PvP but even that got to a point where I wasn't really having fun any more. It's far more repetetive than I expect an MMO to be. No variation at all really.

CO would have made a killer single player console game and would have been worth every penny. It has about the expected garunteed play time you would expect from a single player console game so that is probably a large part of it. CO requires just shy of 50 hours to hit the end. They have added a little here and there but it's still not even up to what I would consider par for an MMO at launch. 

One day the game could really be killer but it would require a ton of work and possibly a relaunch or an NGE type of overhaul. 

When DCUO launches CO needs to outshine it by a great deal and I just don't see that happening. CO just needs to much work. 

 

I will check back in on it every few months but I couldn't even stick out my 6 month sub, I probably have 3 months left and I can't bring myself to log in still so I simply canceled and uninstalled. 

 

Good costumization, definetly worth the initial buy, but sadly the rest of the game comes up extremely short and it definetly isn't worth a monthly sub. 

 

But this is just imho.  

So true. The customization was the best thing in the whole game. And you nailed it when you said it would have been a great single player stand-alone game since grouping was not really necessary. They could have set up something like a "Hire" mercenaries/sidekicks kinda thing for the 5-person lairs and it would have worked nicely as a single player game.

Actually I wonder if they thought of that at the start ? Then after launch they could have said that there would be a mmo side to it where everyone could log in to a server somewhere. Lol, but then I guess too many people would cry "Flagship !" and that would have been a disaster.

  championsFan

Novice Member

Joined: 12/01/09
Posts: 420

12/15/09 12:56:39 AM#25
Originally posted by ArcAngel3

I follow the news releases about this game because it interests me. I'm still sitting on the sidelines because of the item shop that offers things like respecs and performance enhancement (correct me if I'm wrong).
There is nothing on the C store that offers performance enhancement.  Respecs are availible to purchase, but they can be earned in game and purchased with in game currency.  I have dozens of characters, many high level, and have never bought anything from the C store despite having a high disposable income and not having time for pointless grinding.
I think there are probably a lot of people on the sidelines because of the subscription fee, plus extra for respec, plus extra for enhancing items.  It doesn't matter if these items are available in game because this can be easily manipulated (E.G. the ingame option can be made dull, repetitive, too difficult, too long etc.).  If this happens, people are going to be herded into the item shop to avoid the grind.  That's a non-starter for me.
Some people with always be distrustful, but so far there is nothing in the game that resembles what you are worried about.  The C store just has a few costumes parts, action figures, and some account management tools (respecs, renames, more costume slots (default 4), more character slots (default 8)). There are no gameplay effecting items in the C store.
Costume pieces in an item shop (things that don't affect gameplay) are fine with me btw.  Fix this issue, and I'd give it a try.  I'm not touching it otherwise.
Look at the C store:
 http://champions-online.com/store
I respec all the time using in-game methods, only someone who plans very poorly or likes to respec unusually often (to always have the best powers perhaps) would need to be buying respecs.

Listen to the players about priority fixes, don't mess up their progress, and stick with purely cosmetic RMT items (no enhancements or respecs) and you got me.  Otherwise, it just sounds like a hassle and a money pit, not a fun entertainment service.

Give the game a try in the next free weekend, your concerns are valid, but fortunately nothing you are worried about is really an issue.  Even the trolls on Champions official forums do not bring up RMT because anyone who plays the game knows it is a non-issue.   The RMT bogeyman only works on people who have not played the game.  


 

 

Cryptic is trying a Customer Development approach to MMO creation.

  AkumaDaimyo

Novice Member

Joined: 1/13/05
Posts: 191

12/15/09 2:20:53 AM#26

Meh. SWTOR may not kill WoW but it can certainly crush this flop of a game. It's too much like CoH with a few tweaks and  new world.

  HitechLolife

Novice Member

Joined: 8/23/09
Posts: 211

12/15/09 3:48:02 AM#27
Originally posted by AkumaDaimyo

Meh. SWTOR may not kill WoW but it can certainly crush this flop of a game. It's too much like CoH with a few tweaks and  new world.

 

I've never fully understood the desire people have to "kill" a game. Simple schadenfreude or is there a practical reason? There's always some people a game brings a bit of joy to, don't they like it when people are happy? Is it that the refugees all supposed to subscribe to the hater's chosen game, to reinforce the idea that they made the right choice and soothe their ego?

In actual fact when a MMORPG fails it's a pretty bad thing for the genre as a whole. It could potentially mean less investors, confidence, innovation amongst other things. Not to mention the loss of jobs.

Currently Playing: The Game

  User Deleted
12/15/09 6:16:07 AM#28
Originally posted by gandales

 the complaints (not all) are exagerated

1) Missions. CO missions are not so different from the other mmos I played like wow or CoH. Kill Xs, Kill big guy, collect something, escort, etc. 

2) Balancing, there is no mmo without balancing problems, I still remember that classes were taking turns in wow, that warlock are OP or broken or whatever people felt like at the moment.

 The complains I completely agree,

 1) Group content, it is pretty reduced, at the same time the leveling is so fast that there is no much reason to actually group except for a few instances and mainly for enjoy them but you can level to 40 without teaming at all.

2) Small amount of content, at launch with deficit, now with 15% of surplus, but still too small. However, most of the content is non-generic instance like CoH so Cryptic could actually creates a lot of content easily if they dare to go that route more.  

 In conclusion, I think the game is good, with a lot of area requiring improvement and really good potential.


 

Although I agree on a sterile technical level; there's actually much more to the issue of missions/quests in an mmo - the presentation of the gameworld in CO is much more clumsy and arbitrary than any gameworld I have experienced,and this actively undermines the variety of reward you can possibly draw from each mission. Instances in other games provide objectives and features you can resolve in total, they allow you to see the conclusion and result of your efforts, no alternative method of providing such an illusion is attempted in CO, while zones are large they actually convey a cramped and cluttered feel, the careless design of mission objectives forecebly drives you past respawned features with alarming frequency undermining any sense of immersion, respawn rates are fast and ignorant of shard populations so you can often face the futile realisation of wasting your time before you have even digested your accumulated loot, mission texts are clumsy and wildly different in tone, mission arcs don't integrate consistently so you will find a cure for one blighted enemy in one arc and be back to havesting the same folks you now know to be innocents in the next, enemy ai has zero variety everything behaves like herding animals, locations and response to attack are identical accross the board, even the oldest games provide some choice of contact or mission but there are no occurences of player choice that have any stylistic influence in CO..none whatsoever, which is a new low for player involvement.

The reward for completing a mission in CO is that your avatar gains experience, the reward for completing a mission in virtually any other mmo you care to mention is likewise experience but additionally they attempt to provide conceptual fulfillment, they often define the choices/journey you have ahead, they respond differently to your chosen achetype, they attempt to engage your imagination and draw you into the lore, they aim to support the theme in a manner that assists and encourages player involvement and immersion - these conceptual rewards go hand in hand with the physical rewards....maybe not always with the same success but CO is the first mmo I have come accross that doesnt even bother to try and convey them.

For these reasons identical mission mechanics in other mmo's are potentially more real fun or else more likely to appeal to a wider variety of player than the monosyllabic reward CO offers. Simply adding more of the same missions/quests/lairs as they have to date styles will not broaden the appeal, they desperately need to go back to the drawing board and revisit the core theme with some genuine conviction or else variety and depth will have no hope of seeing light of day.

  Kexo

Novice Member

Joined: 7/08/09
Posts: 84

12/15/09 6:25:47 AM#29

The character creation screen is still the best thing about this game after all this time. Roper need realize that in order for CO to get better. Because as of now CO is still full of FAIL for all the same reasons as 1st month when they were bleeding players.

  championsFan

Novice Member

Joined: 12/01/09
Posts: 420

12/15/09 12:22:23 PM#30

As for CO not being immersive, I agree.  I have been playing Mass Effect, to prepare for the sequel, and that game is 10 years ahead of CO in terms of immersion and lore, etc.

But I am not looking forward to TOR as an MMO because Bioware has yet to make my a game with good controls.  Sure the controls are always "good enough" to get you through the story, but the acting of controlling my character is too clumsy to be intrinsically fun.  In other words, if you removed all the story and lore, I certainly would not load up ME to kill baddies for hours.  

There is only one MMO I have found with combat that is as good as an action game, and that's CO.  Gameplay matters more to me then presentation, as I am an old school gamer, and while I agree the presentation in Champions is lacking, the combat gameplay is top notch for an MMORPG.

Cryptic is trying a Customer Development approach to MMO creation.

  Drachasor

Novice Member

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 2693

12/16/09 1:35:40 AM#31
Originally posted by HitechLolife

In actual fact when a MMORPG fails it's a pretty bad thing for the genre as a whole. It could potentially mean less investors, confidence, innovation amongst other things. Not to mention the loss of jobs.

That's not true at all with a game like WoW out there (and wouldn't be true in the long term even if that wasn't the case).  When bad games die it does send a message though.  LEARN FROM THIS, DON'T MAKE IT'S LIKE AGAIN!  Sometimes some learn the wrong lessons, but it can be quite helpful to the industry overall;  bad games should die.
 

  3devious

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/22/08
Posts: 6

Asphalt is a great word because it is descriptive and it lays blame. - William McDonnagh

12/19/09 9:41:28 PM#32
Originally posted by Soupgoblin

 Notice that the fanboi brings nothing to the table

 <snip>

 And Bill Roper does not know anything about "listening to their players". He would need to purchase a dummies guide first.

 


 

How about you purchase "Understanding MMOs for Dummies" and come back but you probably can't because Scott Hartsman is too busy listening to players getting promoted to Producer by sodomizing his community to allow the sockpuppets to realize his game is just as guilty of everything you mentioned above after 5 years.

Thanks for picking on the fanboy, an EQ2 apologist has even more to contribute... not. 

This game needs lots of work, but most of it is the fundamental problems with MMOs as a whole.  Someone needs to design a way to make playing with other people more fun than the typical "let people PVP, group, raid, or do public quest type things."

Every MMORPG is boring and repetitive.  It really isn't the game, what people mainly seem to need is something that isn't going to drive their friends away so that they have someone to play with.  What can we do to mix things up a bit?

  Soupgoblin

Novice Member

Joined: 4/30/05
Posts: 337

A mind is like a parachute, it only works when it is OPEN. -

1/06/10 8:40:56 PM#33
Originally posted by 3devious
Originally posted by Soupgoblin

 Notice that the fanboi brings nothing to the table

 <snip>

 And Bill Roper does not know anything about "listening to their players". He would need to purchase a dummies guide first.

 


 

How about you purchase "Understanding MMOs for Dummies" and come back but you probably can't because Scott Hartsman is too busy listening to players getting promoted to Producer by sodomizing his community to allow the sockpuppets to realize his game is just as guilty of everything you mentioned above after 5 years.

Thanks for picking on the fanboy, an EQ2 apologist has even more to contribute... not. 

This game needs lots of work, but most of it is the fundamental problems with MMOs as a whole.  Someone needs to design a way to make playing with other people more fun than the typical "let people PVP, group, raid, or do public quest type things."

Every MMORPG is boring and repetitive.  It really isn't the game, what people mainly seem to need is something that isn't going to drive their friends away so that they have someone to play with.  What can we do to mix things up a bit?

 

A little bitter, aren't you?

I am no EQ2 apologist, I think SOE has a track record for spitting in their customers face.

But I do now a fun and entertaining game when I play one, EQ2 is a fun and entertaining game, whereas Champions online is not (anymore).

Yes this game has issues, and yes the problem lies within the industry. The game companies think that the entire MMO community will accept garbage at launch. (AoC, WAR and DF are examples) .

But the reason they think this way is because there are too many moron gamers that will eat a bucket of crap and tell everyone how wonderful it tastes. The real problem is the low expectations of gamers and the IP fans who (just because they like the IP) will lie about how well a game is doing, when all evidence points at the complete opposite.

Yes men are just ass kissers, ass kissers are useless

And, not every MMO is boring and repetitive, only the boring and repetitive ones are. Just stay away from them and you won't feel so depressed all the time.

 

Oh, thanks for the personal attack. It isn't my fault your friends left the game, and you.

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