Some of you people remind me of my father when I was a wee lad. He used to say "you don't need air conditioning and power windows, you just need something to get you from point A to point B.

(I never realized until now what a level grinder my father was.)

The thing is, many of us want this interactivity, and for more than one reason. There's roleplay and deeper worldly interaction, sure, but there's also the ability to hide important content and game play inside this interaction. Then there's also the presentation of important game play, where these things can be used to make it more interesting than just "pez dispensers".

Those of you who want bare bones, hey, you got that in several flavors. Many of us want more now.

I remember back in UO I shared a house with another player. He was in a different time zone and we rarely saw each other. We would use a log book to communicate. I'd left the book on a table in the house and each time we played we would leave a short entry about what we did. We decided to turn the house into the headquarters of a guild. Throughout the entire early stages of the guild's creation we would use that book to track our progress. Even a year later that book was sitting on a bookshelf in that same house.

That is interaction and that is how the False Dragon's Alliance (FDA) was created on Chesapeake server in the early days of UO. There is nothing that has been created since then that can possibly match that genuinely personal experience that a simple interactive book created.

And that reminds me of one particular rule, one particular bit of tech required for a truly interactive game. Every object must have a 3D model (or 2D if its a 2D game) so that you can take that object from your inventory and place it in the game world. Think about that for a minute. Only a handful of games have true object persistence and most of them are single player RPG's. In most games items are nothing more than an icon and can't be represented in the game world at all. They can only be sold or discarded, but never dropped. They have no persistence.

Originally posted by Aganazer

I remember back in UO I shared a house with another player. He was in a different time zone and we rarely saw each other. We would use a log book to communicate. I'd left the book on a table in the house and each time we played we would leave a short entry about what we did. We decided to turn the house into the headquarters of a guild. Throughout the entire early stages of the guild's creation we would use that book to track our progress. Even a year later that book was sitting on a bookshelf in that same house.

That is interaction and that is how the False Dragon's Alliance (FDA) was created on Chesapeake server in the early days of UO. There is nothing that has been created since then that can possibly match that genuinely personal experience that a simple interactive book created.

And that reminds me of one particular rule, one particular bit of tech required for a truly interactive game. Every object must have a 3D model (or 2D if its a 2D game) so that you can take that object from your inventory and place it in the game world. Think about that for a minute. Only a handful of games have true object persistence and most of them are single player RPG's. In most games items are nothing more than an icon and can't be represented in the game world at all. They can only be sold or discarded, but never dropped. They have no persistence.

Indeed, it boggles the mind how a simple thing such as an editable book/scroll can open up a whole new dimension of interaction. In fact, I remember clearly using books in UO for all manner of things, from diaries, logbooks to writing and distributing/selling short stories and mad ramblings, codes of honor/guild rules, trade logs even. Such flexibility, such depth within such a simple mechanic. One of my characters was almost fully dedicated to being a scribe, had a study with shelves full of books.

And what we have now ? As you rightfully noted, items don't even have physical forms in-game, they become abstractions, less then symbols... mere signs.

But let us not confuse the layman reader, the topic of 'interactivity' goes far beyond roleplay, think of guilds, ownership, dungeon features, conquest, player housing/construction, branching NPC dialogues, editable/configurable equipment, a combat system beyond that of auto-attacking and pressing numericals, interactive crafting, deep character development, dynamic quest objectives with choices, advanced avatar controls, animated interaction sequences with NPC's and PC's, truly persistent, fluid, changing worlds, -living- worlds... we must do away with the static bull**** that has been the norm for so many years now, we must boldly step forward, change the paradigm, break the orthodoxy !

oh so many things, one must see the big picture, we must lift ourselves to the level of possibilities, if we continue to look from the level of current games we are blind, bound to what we see, we must think with our minds, not with out eyes. Without ideas, the progress is too slow, we are being fed static year after year.

-  Shijeer 

Originally posted by Shijeer

Originally posted by nariusseldon

 

Either a) these items are not essential (or even a distraction) to a hack-n-slash game, or b) it can be done WITHOUT movable objects with a much better interface.

1) Very few RP in MMOs anyway. It is probably a waste of resources to great a complex system so that people can just move plates around to RP. 

2) What interesting things? There is no interesting thing you cannot create/use with just an inventory interface.

3) What communication? It is 10x easier to just chat or vent, then trying to put something on a virtual table and get people to see it.

4) Disbursement of what? In-game mail/trade windows are much more secure for disbursing stuff

5) You don't need movable objects to trade. There are in-game trade interface (much easier to use) for it.

6) Display of what?

All you get is distractions. There is no in-game function that really requires the ability to move plates & glasses around on a table.

 

This post plainly demonstrates, for all to see, everything thats wrong with the modern MMO player mentality and attitude. Furthermore, and more importantly also, by proxy, the dev mentality, thus shaping the MMO world now, as well as tomorrow.

Distractions from what ? The next level, The grind, Phat lootz ? what ? Or perhaps you actually do enjoy the monotony, the repetition ? It could be because you know nothing else, regardless, the obvious fact that you quite simply are unable to fathom anything beyond combat in a MMO is likely the root of the problem, and its ok, I understand, I really do, you are entitled to like what you like, my beef is with there being so darn many of you that it would be borderline foolish for an investor to risk deviation from the orthodoxy. Those of us that seek a game not akin to WoW, who see the potential, the vision, the possibilities, are left with indie developers that often simply lack the resources to deliver. 

Also, speaking of roguelikes...... ADOM..... a game I habitually return to year after year after year, all the while awaiting JADE with great excitement,

-  Shijeer

Distraction from Hack-n-Slash. Don't you get it .. since Diablo, hack-n-slash is the main attraction of MANY games from 3rd person action (God of War, Devil May Cry ... ) to MMORPG.

The charge that i know nothing else is SILLY. Not only I started with UO beta (which is a game that i hate), I have played table top D&D. I just PREFER hack-n-slash with an open mind.

And it is only a "problem" in your mind because you don't like it. For us, there is no problem. WOW is optimizing its gameplay for us (like the new much more efficient dungeon finder tool).

Originally posted by LynxJSA

That is one of the uses of the bottles, but it is not the point of the bottles... and jugs... and glasses and mugs and flasks and all the other objects that can be manipulated within the game world to create a custom environment or facilitate roleplay.

 

RP is boring. Almost no one is doing it and it is inefficient. With a potion interface, i can drink with a simple hot button. Trying to click click and click & manipulate to drink .. is just not fun if you have to do it again and again. There is a reason why games don't do that anymore even though the technology is there.

I have done table top D&D before and modern hack-n-slash games is 10x more entertaining. Look at the other threads about RPing .. it has fallen out of fashion for a long long time.

Originally posted by nariusseldon                                                                                                                                                                          
Distraction from Hack-n-Slash. Don't you get it .. since Diablo, hack-n-slash is the main attraction of MANY games from 3rd person action (God of War, Devil May Cry ... ) to MMORPG.
The charge that i know nothing else is SILLY. Not only I started with UO beta (which is a game that i hate), I have played table top D&D. I just PREFER hack-n-slash with an open mind.
And it is only a "problem" in your mind because you don't like it. For us, there is no problem. WOW is optimizing its gameplay for us (like the new much more efficient dungeon finder tool).

Fair enough, I'm not suggesting that every game should cater to my will and mine alone, opinions differ, perceptions of fun differ, everything is subjective. However, that being said I do believe strongly that the industry has become exceedingly shallow over the past 6 or so years, diversity is the only way to progress, both for -my- type of game and -yours-.

I call for a change of focus from simply listening to a story to being able to affect it in a meaningful way. As it is, the story is interactive in the same way as a book is interactive by means of turning pages, only the page turning takes the form of running to the next objective, killing the target and clicking on the next NPC. Surely this cannot satisfy you, surely you also crave for something more. Of course if playing an MMO is like playing a handheld in a bus to pass the time for you, its a different story.

Even then, I feel the need to stress that interactivity can improve a hack-and-slash game just as well as any other, the actual style of the basic gameplay is irrelevant. In fact many of the notable hack-and-slash games became renown precisely because they introduced new, clever and fun ways to -interact- with the game environment. On the basic level its things like being able to pick up and switch weapons, to open doors with keys, to solve a puzzle. etc. to use different skills and abilities, to dispose of enemies in unique ways, interactivity has improved -your- type of game just as much and has the potential to in the future. Surely you remember how most games were on the C64 and the NES.

You should do well to dismiss the assumption that complexity/depth/interactivity must equal boredom, or that they will necessarily detract from the gameplay you prefer. Of course they can, but if done right they serve only to enrich and improve ! Wishing to keep it 'dumbed down' as it is, that's silly. If you want pure hack-and-slash, there are MMO's like Draconica and 2Moons, those have a place yes, but surely the genre can be so much more then a glorified MMarcade.

- Shijeer

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by LynxJSA

That is one of the uses of the bottles, but it is not the point of the bottles... and jugs... and glasses and mugs and flasks and all the other objects that can be manipulated within the game world to create a custom environment or facilitate roleplay.

 

RP is boring. Almost no one is doing it and it is inefficient. With a potion interface, i can drink with a simple hot button. Trying to click click and click & manipulate to drink .. is just not fun if you have to do it again and again. There is a reason why games don't do that anymore even though the technology is there.

I have done table top D&D before and modern hack-n-slash games is 10x more entertaining. Look at the other threads about RPing .. it has fallen out of fashion for a long long time.

 

That is your personal opinion, but not necessarily the opinion of everyone else.

Any the only reason why RP has "fallen out of fashion" is because the newer games mostly ignore it. They barely touch features to facilitate and promote RP. Everything is static and the same. Everyone wears the exact same thing with the exact same colors. There's barely any customization and personalization. That's why RP is so lacking, because the tools to enhance it are practically void in most MMOs today, causing the people who enjoy it to either give up, or move to more supportive channels to RP over.

Originally posted by Shijeer

Originally posted by nariusseldon                                                                                                                                                                          
Distraction from Hack-n-Slash. Don't you get it .. since Diablo, hack-n-slash is the main attraction of MANY games from 3rd person action (God of War, Devil May Cry ... ) to MMORPG.
The charge that i know nothing else is SILLY. Not only I started with UO beta (which is a game that i hate), I have played table top D&D. I just PREFER hack-n-slash with an open mind.
And it is only a "problem" in your mind because you don't like it. For us, there is no problem. WOW is optimizing its gameplay for us (like the new much more efficient dungeon finder tool).

 

 

Fair enough, I'm not suggesting that every game should cater to my will and mine alone, opinions differ, perceptions of fun differ, everything is subjective. However, that being said I do believe strongly that the industry has become exceedingly shallow over the past 6 or so years, diversity is the only way to progress, both for -my- type of game and -yours-.

 

I call for a change of focus from simply listening to a story to being able to affect it in a meaningful way. As it is, the story is interactive in the same way as a book is interactive by means of turning pages, only the page turning takes the form of running to the next objective, killing the target and clicking on the next NPC. Surely this cannot satisfy you, surely you also crave for something more. Of course if playing an MMO is like playing a handheld in a bus to pass the time for you, its a different story.

 

Even then, I feel the need to stress that interactivity can improve a hack-and-slash game just as well as any other, the actual style of the basic gameplay is irrelevant. In fact many of the notable hack-and-slash games became renown precisely because they introduced new, clever and fun ways to -interact- with the game environment. On the basic level its things like being able to pick up and switch weapons, to open doors with keys, to solve a puzzle. etc. to use different skills and abilities, to dispose of enemies in unique ways, interactivity has improved -your- type of game just as much and has the potential to in the future. Surely you remember how most games were on the C64 and the NES.

 

You should do well to dismiss the assumption that complexity/depth/interactivity must equal boredom, or that they will necessarily detract from the gameplay you prefer. Of course they can, but if done right they serve only to enrich and improve ! Wishing to keep it 'dumbed down' as it is, that's silly. If you want pure hack-and-slash, there are MMO's like Draconica and 2Moons, those have a place yes, but surely the genre can be so much more then a glorified MMarcade.

 

- Shijeer

Sure. New ways to interact can even improve hack-n-slash gameplay but remember that that gameplay is very focus. Not ANY interaction will enhance it. In fact, many (such as requiring the user to do a lot of non-combat related manipulation of objects) will detract from it.

However, things like environmental kills, new type of skills & combos can enhance hack-n-slash gameplay. In fact, I belieev Diablo 3 will have a lot of these new ideas.

And surely there are other types of MMOs out there .. Bioware is doing a story driven one (and not hack-n-slash loot focused one).

However, my main points remain ...

a) lots of MMOs are hack-n-slash-loot based (wow, lotro, aion, even DDO) and let's not delude ourselves to pretend they are trying to be something else.

b) There is a large audience cares little about anything else. Heck, they won't even appreciate DIFFICULT hack-n-slash (note the unpopularity of OCCULUS in wow, and how it is nerfed).

c) As a result, don't be surprise if few developers would focus on enhancing interactivity .. beyond combat.

And before you ask why, the psychology of hack-n-slash games are very obvious. People do NOT crave a complex, or realistic environment .. they crave an environment where they are powerful. Repetition is ok (note that people spent HOURS playing slot machines) as long as a PROBABLISTIC reward is there .. there is a HUGE literature on this kind of psychology.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

 

Sure. New ways to interact can even improve hack-n-slash gameplay but remember that that gameplay is very focus. Not ANY interaction will enhance it. In fact, many (such as requiring the user to do a lot of non-combat related manipulation of objects) will detract from it.

However, things like environmental kills, new type of skills & combos can enhance hack-n-slash gameplay. In fact, I belieev Diablo 3 will have a lot of these new ideas.

And surely there are other types of MMOs out there .. Bioware is doing a story driven one (and not hack-n-slash loot focused one).

However, my main points remain ...

a) lots of MMOs are hack-n-slash-loot based (wow, lotro, aion, even DDO) and let's not delude ourselves to pretend they are trying to be something else.

b) There is a large audience cares little about anything else. Heck, they won't even appreciate DIFFICULT hack-n-slash (note the unpopularity of OCCULUS in wow, and how it is nerfed).

c) As a result, don't be surprise if few developers would focus on enhancing interactivity .. beyond combat.

And before you ask why, the psychology of hack-n-slash games are very obvious. People do NOT crave a complex, or realistic environment .. they crave an environment where they are powerful. Repetition is ok (note that people spent HOURS playing slot machines) as long as a PROBABLISTIC reward is there .. there is a HUGE literature on this kind of psychology.

 

 

As I mentioned before a number of times in this thread, In no way do I call for devs to reinvent existing games or even to give much thought to altering them in any radical way. What I am aiming at here is future development and breaking the current trend, that which will shape said development. As far as not all modification improving the game, certainly, funny to note though that while gamers often resist upcoming changes, upon their arrival do find them pretty cool in many a case.

Too many MMO's are hack-and-slash based and ,judging by their following, are doing a pretty good job at it. However, this very point is my problem, their overwhelming popularity is suffocating the market and stalling creativity, diversity and ultimately, choice. I know there are many others that feel the same way, furthermore, I feel there is an extensive untapped minority within current hack-and-slash games don't even know they would actually prefer -our- type of game, being new they don't know anything else is possible, one cant escape a prison if unaware of its existence.

I'm not saying that I know more about what people like/want then the people, all I'm suggesting is opening the eyes to see the possibilities, the alternatives, a different perspective for once. Being open to new experiences. Indeed making it possible for the alternative to prosper. Currently, pretty much having only indie games on the 'other side' it seems unfair. One 'side' is underrepresented. AAA titles against devs with hardly any financial backing. One could argue that it's natural, the supply is only reacting to the demand, but in the case of MMO's, a relatively young industry, the devs are the ones calling the shots at this stage. In short, we play what we get and get what we play, can you see the problem ?

Also I feel I must appologize for my previous illconvieved and mostly groundless insults, I was merely working with the information I had at my disposal, ignoring the person behind it, for some reason I found one of your posts so oppositionalistic it seemed as though deliberately aggressive. A lapse in judgement that became apparent upon your reasonable reply.

- Shijeer  

Originally posted by Torik

Originally posted by WSIMike

Just to add to that last sentence....
... that the more "action craving type can simply choose not to play."

That said, I agree and I'm glad you called out and expanded on the "plates in a tavern" thing... It was an obvious attempt to deliberately avoid the big picture, by focusing attention on one tiny example. Or maybe that person just couldn't see the big picture.

It is kinda sad when all someone can get out of a discussion about more interaction on a "world-wide" scale in MMOs is "why would I want to move plates on a table?". Sad, but  perhaps also indicative of why so many so-called "casual gamers" want everything "easier and less complex".

 

 

 

The actual question is whether there actually is a 'big picture' present.  'Moving plates' has a deeper meaning if it is part of a 'bigger picture'.  If you move plates just to move plates then it is nothing but cute fluff.  Often one cannot see the bigger picture because there isn't one (or it might just be a vague idea that has not been implemented), 

"Why would I want to move plates on a table?" is a perfectly valid question.  If there is a meaningfull answer then 'moving plates' is a meaningfull action.  If there is not a meaningfull answer then 'moving plates' is just fluff.

 

Okay so I'll go ahead and spell out exactly what I mean since I guess I didn't do so well enough the last time.

The bigger picture I refer to is that *it's not all about moving plates on a table*. The implication is that the game - overall - has a higher and more detailed level of interaction, wherein moving plates on a table would be only one very specific example. You give people a level of interaction on a *global* scale... give them the ability to do things and interact with the environment and they will find interesting ways of utilizing that interaction. I believe it's called "emergent gaming".

 

Originally posted by altairzq

Developers now have zero imagination and this is great for the 80% of the population with zero imagination. We have to wait for a company with brains that create something amazing. Will happen sooner or later.

Square-Enix.

Originally posted by Athkore

Originally posted by altairzq

Developers now have zero imagination and this is great for the 80% of the population with zero imagination. We have to wait for a company with brains that create something amazing. Will happen sooner or later.

 Square-Enix.

It's a little out of place to them as "amazing" in a thread about Interactivity...given that their RPGs are some of the least interactive (and most movie-like) RPGs on the market.

Their art is amazing, and the games are moderately fun (I got nothing against Square-Enix) but in a thread about interactivity they're odd to mention -- unless they're being used as an example of how less interactive games are still quite entertaining, I suppose.

The best mmos will come from companies who have nothing to lose and are willing to take risks. Bigger companies are too scared to take risks becuase they love their money too much.

I agree, big publishers and investors are too tied up in their 'returns on investment', their 'risk analysis' and 'target audience demographics' to deviate from the proven model. Indie developers, however, do have the freedom to not follow dogma, indeed, the only way they can expect to compete at all, we all know what happens to indie WoW clones.

White this gradual movement towards something different, the experimentation, is very much desirable, I fear that even they are bound by similar chains. Perhaps simply due to lack of resources, but its evident that even the indie devs are stuck, on the other side of the same 'static', 'traditional', 'classic' gameplay coin.

More running around and more crafting components do not an interactive world make. 

Perhaps I ask too much, perhaps my abstract ramblings are misplaced. Progress, I hope, is happening, albeit slowly but hopefully surely happening. I wish a change in the paradigm, a move towards more meaningful and consequential virtual worlds, arcades have their place, but gaming cannot, -must not- be reduced to being defined that way.

- Shijeer  

A hero must emerge from the darkness...

and slaughter all casual players...

and make a game that's for people that care....

DOWN WITH CASUALS!

FOR THE GAMES!

Originally posted by Sinviper

A hero must emerge from the darkness...

 

and slaughter all casual players...

 

and make a game that's for people that care....

 

DOWN WITH CASUALS!

 

FOR THE GAMES!

Heh, while I do share your enthusiasm, I myself hope for a less blunt way to handle this very delicate matter here. There is no need to continue on with these artificial 'sides', these dated stereotypes.

Surely games can be designed with many types of gamer in mind, as we discussed previously complexity and depth does not have to get in the way of a more casual player if done right, in fact it can enhance their game just as well. It has to be a choice, once the balance is fine tuned to the point where a game world can accommodate many play styles and does not fall apart, stays competitive and balanced, does not discriminate against the casual nor the hardcore, we know its on the right track.

Is it possible? Perhaps not, perhaps its just idealistic, utopian rambling, but we already see the line between genres and playstyles blur, they are not so distinct as they once were, there is hope yet for a grandiose virtual world with things to offer all of us.

- Shijeer

Perhaps I ask too much, perhaps my abstract ramblings are misplaced. Progress, I hope, is happening, albeit slowly but hopefully surely happening. I wish a change in the paradigm, a move towards more meaningful and consequential virtual worlds, arcades have their place, but gaming cannot, -must not- be reduced to being defined that way.

Wishing very hard will not change the world. Even if you don't consider the business aspect of things, ask yourself that if more interacting complexity is going to be more entertaining. MMOs are foremost games, entertaining products. It is pointless to produce games that very few will play (particularly MMOs).

There is a HUGE scientific literature showing that people often paralyzed in front of too many choices, and freedom is NOT necessarily good. That is why many entertainment products are simple, and focused. Even if there is complexity, it is often focused in very narrow domain (tactical considerations of a RTS, how to kill a well scripted boss in MMOs, mastering combos in action games). Even movies have relatively simple plots. The ONLY different venue may be books. And even novels are very seldom complex.

I won't say it is for sure that a complex interacting virtual is bad, but i do NOT see that it will FOR SURE increase entertainment value. And while you are free to wish for your meaningful virtual world, I do not see that as essential to building good entertainment products.

Gaming has been more and more focused on simple choices wrapped in rewards and exhilarating environments. Just take the newest smash hit CoD Modern Warfare 2. The single player campaign got kudos from all over but in the end, the great thing about it is the setting, the characters, and NOT the choices. In fact, interactivity is quite low and many part of the game is on rails. However, it is entertaining as hell. You really FEEL that you are in a big movie. I think MMO producers need to take a page from that. And i think Bioware is paying attention.