lol EvE, UO, DAoC I can agree with but WoW and War definitely do not belong on that list lol. 

DFO - One of the first MMO's to truly give that balls to the walls war. In the first month of DFO you had one large alliance attempting to conquer the whole of Agon which forced other alliances to form and wage war against them. There were ship battles, sieges, sneak attacks, traps, spies, espionage, sabotage, it was war and an epic one at that. The server war at DFO's launch is something that has never been seen in an MMO. Politics played a huge role, public opinion and support was something the major alliances fought for on a daily basis. Good will missions took place. The battles were truly bloody and epic. While you can say many things in regards to how bad DFO is, there is simply no denying what DFO has brought to the PvP MMO scene. 

Aion - While some do not like Aion, there really isn't any denying that it has brought some of the fastest paced PvP to date into the PvP scene. While you are flying or even simply running on the ground the combat is very fast paced. Being a PvPvE MMO with flying are other unique things it brought to the table. 

Shadowbane - One of the greats from ages past. Shadowbane laid the foundation for siege warfare. Some epic battles were had in Shadowbane and the mechanics made from some interesting options when you had beef with another guild. Shadowbane much like UO had a great deal of influence on the games we play today and without Shadowbane many of the great siege mechanics that many of us enjoy today would likely not exist. 

WoW and War both fail in comparison to any of the above mentioned games. WoW and War both failed to deliver on one integral element in making a good or even decent PvP MMO. They failed on delivering a sense of purpose or meaning to it all. PvP'ing in those MMO's really did not make it feel as if it meant anything. You didn't feel like you had any impact on the world around you at all. You really didn't. The world and the community simply chugged along as if you never existed and what you had done never happened. Not to mention neither really brought much unique to the PvP scene. War while herald as a PvP MMO did bring some innovative things to the table in regards to PvE but failed really to deliver anything new or innovative in PvP. WoW's PvP faired no better and it's focus was always centered around "My gears better". 

WoW and Wars PvP are compairable to Age of Conans and many others that simply never understood what PvP was about. Without ever grasping that concept you simply can not deliver. Not only is PvP about competition, its about making what you do have an impact on another. WoW, War and Age of Conan are prime examples of developers simply not understanding what it is that makes PvP worth doing. There has to be some trophy that you can take away from it all that has some meaning or value. 

It's fun to compete with others, but it simply gets blah if theres nothing more to gain than the right to say I won this time... see you next time. There truly has to be something to compete over. 

In Aion while it may not seem like it even there you are fighting over something. The Abyss is open to all, capturing a fort opens access to special recipes, stigmas, gear, etc. and not only that but your fighting for control over the land it'self. Hard to PvE in an area where the enemy race is killing you lol. So even Aion manages to give meaning to it all to some degree. 

Why you would add MMO's that simply did PvP wrong on this list I have no idea. There are a slew of other MMO's that did things very well and or brought something new and unique to the table for PvP. 

WoW and War simply did neither of these things. Nothing new to the PvP scene and they certainly did not manage to capture the essence of PvP. 

Sad list. I dont disagree (because I dont pvp much), but the first 3 ranked games are old. Hey devs, look at that list and change it ;)

DF and sb blow wow away even with their shortcomings.  Aion blows wow away.  Aoc has better combat then wow.  Planetside,  wwII online.

I am sorry wow does a lot of things well but pvp is not among them.

Even the fact it is the largest mmo does not give it a right to be on this list.

Warhammer i guess it could fly maybe as #5

Double post oO.... 

Originally posted by GrayGhost79

 lol EvE, UO, DAoC I can agree with but WoW and War definitely do not belong on that list lol. 

DFO - One of the first MMO's to truly give that balls to the walls war. In the first month of DFO you had one large alliance attempting to conquer the whole of Agon which forced other alliances to form and wage war against them. There were ship battles, sieges, sneak attacks, traps, spies, espionage, sabotage, it was war and an epic one at that. The server war at DFO's launch is something that has never been seen in an MMO. Politics played a huge role, public opinion and support was something the major alliances fought for on a daily basis. Good will missions took place. The battles were truly bloody and epic. While you can say many things in regards to how bad DFO is, there is simply no denying what DFO has brought to the PvP MMO scene. 

 

Aion - While some do not like Aion, there really isn't any denying that it has brought some of the fastest paced PvP to date into the PvP scene. While you are flying or even simply running on the ground the combat is very fast paced. Being a PvPvE MMO with flying are other unique things it brought to the table. 

 

Shadowbane - One of the greats from ages past. Shadowbane laid the foundation for siege warfare. Some epic battles were had in Shadowbane and the mechanics made from some interesting options when you had beef with another guild. Shadowbane much like UO had a great deal of influence on the games we play today and without Shadowbane many of the great siege mechanics that many of us enjoy today would likely not exist. 

 

 

WoW and War both fail in comparison to any of the above mentioned games. WoW and War both failed to deliver on one integral element in making a good or even decent PvP MMO. They failed on delivering a sense of purpose or meaning to it all. PvP'ing in those MMO's really did not make it feel as if it meant anything. You didn't feel like you had any impact on the world around you at all. You really didn't. The world and the community simply chugged along as if you never existed and what you had done never happened. Not to mention neither really brought much unique to the PvP scene. War while herald as a PvP MMO did bring some innovative things to the table in regards to PvE but failed really to deliver anything new or innovative in PvP. WoW's PvP faired no better and it's focus was always centered around "My gears better". 

 

WoW and Wars PvP are compairable to Age of Conans and many others that simply never understood what PvP was about. Without ever grasping that concept you simply can not deliver. Not only is PvP about competition, its about making what you do have an impact on another. WoW, War and Age of Conan are prime examples of developers simply not understanding what it is that makes PvP worth doing. There has to be some trophy that you can take away from it all that has some meaning or value. 

 

It's fun to compete with others, but it simply gets blah if theres nothing more to gain than the right to say I won this time... see you next time. There truly has to be something to compete over. 

 

In Aion while it may not seem like it even there you are fighting over something. The Abyss is open to all, capturing a fort opens access to special recipes, stigmas, gear, etc. and not only that but your fighting for control over the land it'self. Hard to PvE in an area where the enemy race is killing you lol. So even Aion manages to give meaning to it all to some degree. 

 

Why you would add MMO's that simply did PvP wrong on this list I have no idea. There are a slew of other MMO's that did things very well and or brought something new and unique to the table for PvP. 

 

WoW and War simply did neither of these things. Nothing new to the PvP scene and they certainly did not manage to capture the essence of PvP. 

Not sure I could possibly disagree with you more.  Everyone is entitled to their own opinion on what makes good and bad PvP.  Speaking for myself I enjoy the competition for the sake of it and I really wouldn't care if they ever handed me some pretty lil trophy for doing it.  I also very much hate it when it turns into a big epeen or flamefest.  So games like Warhammer, DaoC and others where you cannot talk to your enemies, sign me up.

Not saying you are wrong and I am right.  Just saying you are wrong to automatically assume your version of what makes good PvP is the holy grail of all opinions and everyone else is wrong because they don't see it your way.

 Well he said its his personal list of PVP games.

He probably never played Darkfall and Shadowbane.

In terms of best PVP game out its Darkfall, and will be for a long time (MO being designed more for RP supposedly).

Might aswell have Tabula Rasa at number one since everyones going to have there own opinion and say its wrong anyway...

Originally posted by Paragus1

Originally posted by Harafnir  ... I agree that Darkfall should be out. 5 fan bois not a right make.

 

I very respectfully disagree.   If you want to know what the top PvP MMORPGs of all time are, you should look at the games the top PvP guilds flock to for serious competition.  As someone who has played PvP MMOs and on PvP servers since the genre started, there are certain games that these guilds hold in high regards.

Ultima Online, Shadowbane, Dark Age of Camelot, Asheron's Call (Darktide), EVE Online, possibly Guild Wars or Lineage 2, and Darkfall.

I have played with and against some of the most prolific PvP guilds in the MMO genre, and believe me when I say Darkfall is a game where many of them have a presence for the last year.   Whether you like the game or thinks its a piece of crap, doesn't matter.   Whether the game has 11 million subscribers or 30,000 doesn't matter.  The list shouldn't be based on sub numbers because PvP and hardcore PvP is a very niche part of the genre.  Follow these guilds and you'll find the best PvP MMOs, and right now Darkfall is one of them.   No game requires more situational awareness and personal skill at the controls in the genre than this one does, despite whatever other flaws there may be.

That's a damn good point backed by some pretty solid reasoning.  I think you hit the nail on the head, Paragus, when it comes to 'hardcore PvP' however the OP's list is PvP as a whole. In that light, it's really hard to come up with a Top 5 since WOW is probably number 1 at battlegrounds, DAOC is probably number 1 at realm vs realm, UO probably number 1 for solo and small group PvP, etc etc... Darkfall, EVE, WAR, Shadowbane... each one is a contender for number 1 in their particular type of PvP.

Originally posted by Harafnir  

DaoC is a given, as its realm fighting is some of the most fun things in existance that has never been copied.

Forgot to say I agree with this so soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much.

Why when so many people agree the 3way war in DaoC was great has no one else done it?

Completely unrelated why when so many of us loved the original setup in SWG has no one else ever done something like that again?

Game companies are too busy watching each other and not innovating.  Reminds me of our big three car companies here who completely lost touch with the consumer because they were too busy watching each other and worrying over and copying each other.

My list =p

1. Dark Age of Camelot

2. Eve

3. Planetside

4. Ultima Online

5. Star Wars Galaxies

Can't believe nobody mentioned Age of Conan. It has the best pvp combat out there, bar none.

In my humble opinion, WAR and WOW shouldn't even be mentioned up there

Originally posted by Gevurah

Can't believe nobody mentioned Age of Conan. It has the best pvp combat out there, bar none.

In my humble opinion, WAR and WOW shouldn't even be mentioned up there

I agree the combat is good, but beyond that AoC's PvP was pretty lame when I played it. There's no real reason to do it beyond item rewards. Sort of like WoW. And WAR.

How can Darkfall not have made the list? Even massively.com rated it as the best PvP of 2009, nevermind top 5

Originally posted by Gevurah

Can't believe nobody mentioned Age of Conan. It has the best pvp combat out there, bar none.

In my humble opinion, WAR and WOW shouldn't even be mentioned up there

AoC's combat was done better in Aion. Pace is just as fast, the "combos" are present but flying has been added and the whole PvPvE aspect as well. Combine this with the fact that there is no PvE server you end up with Aion > AoC in regards to PvP. 

What little AoC did good Aion did better, then went further. AoC's biggest failing in regards to PvP was there was just no point in it. Aion also addressed this issue somewhat. 

WoW? hahaha, as if ...

And i'm suprised GW isn't on the list, it has the most extensive PvP system i've came across

Originally posted by Admala

WoW? hahaha, as if ...

And i'm suprised GW isn't on the list, it has the most extensive PvP system i've came across

GW would have been another excellent choice for a Top 5 list. 

I cant belive Lineage 2 is not on that list. The game is one of the few that was built around PVP and has real PVP that affects everything that happens in the game.

Originally posted by Mannish

I cant belive Lineage 2 is not on that list. The game is one of the few that was built around PVP and has real PVP that affects everything that happens in the game.

As I said earlier there were a slew of games that were more approriate for a top 5 PvP MMO list lol. L2 is another example. It had partial looting of players as well didn't it?

Originally posted by GrayGhost79

Originally posted by Admala

WoW? hahaha, as if ...

And i'm suprised GW isn't on the list, it has the most extensive PvP system i've came across

 

GW would have been another excellent choice for a Top 5 list. 

No worries, Guild Wars 2 will have great pvp and will probably be only 2nd  to Eve in that category.

Originally posted by SaintViktor

Originally posted by GrayGhost79

Originally posted by Admala

WoW? hahaha, as if ...

And i'm suprised GW isn't on the list, it has the most extensive PvP system i've came across

 

GW would have been another excellent choice for a Top 5 list. 

 

No worries, Guild Wars 2 will have great pvp and will probably be only 2nd  to Eve in that category.

Meh personally I am expecting GW2 to be a bit shallow PvP wise in comparison to GW. It sounds like it will be a much better PvE game though. Nothing wrong with that, it really seems hard now days for devs to do a MMO that does both PvE and PvP very well. One or the other seems to always be the focus. I am hoping GW2 surprises me though.