Levels.

Not classes. Not Questing. Not PvE or PvP....

Levels.

To understand this, you have to consider the logical end to which leveling leads and why this is a poor fit for games that (theoretically) have no end. See, levels imply an end.

Sure, you could level to infinity, but then you'd just fall into what I call "Dragonball Syndrom." Eventually, your character will be so ridiculously overpowered that your willful suspension of disbelief will be broken, you'll no longer be impressed when you hit a new ding and then you'll cease to care about the game altogether. And then there's some bullshit about balance that says that everyone has to eventually be the same.

Levels work in a single player game because there is an ending. You can let the player power level into infinity and just automatically scale everything to match the power curve and the game will still eventually end. Even if you reset the character to level one and take away all of their money and gear every time they die, the player will eventually beat the game. MMORPGs are technically unbeatable.

And before anyone pipes up: skill based systems are still levels. Placing limitations on skill levels basically serves the same pupose as a level cap. Unfortunately, this leads us to the problem of how to make an RPG without any form of leveling whatsoever. Personally, I don't think it can be done.

But there's still hope. Old table top games like Rune Quest and Call of Cthulhu give some really great ideas of how to balance out the power curve. The trick is to design the system that advances skills according to use and with the idea that even an experienced adventurer can be taken out by a weak but lucky creature. Combat isn't a very forgiving past-time after all. You also need to give the players enough options that no one can cover all the bases no matter how long they play. In this regard, Eve Online got it right.

The other problem with levels is in the way it has focused the overall game development to mimic the single player experience. Developers need to start with open ended concepts that allow the players and the environment to tell a story. Instead, we cling to creating web works of quest chains with the expectation of just adding to it as time goes on. This continual addition is counterproductive and expensive as hell. In games that are sold on the size of their community, wouldn't it make sense to start with the community you hope to attract and design around that goal?

You can hide them behind smoke and mirrors but every system with progression has levels. Even EVE has rudimentary levels. There is a definite power increase between tech one and tech two etc.

You can let go level or skill to infinity - there is only one thing you need to do and this is to let the requirements grow exponentially while the achievement of each new level or skill must decline exponentially.

Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe

Levels.

Not classes. Not Questing. Not PvE or PvP....

Levels.

To understand this, you have to consider the logical end to which leveling leads and why this is a poor fit for games that (theoretically) have no end. See, levels imply an end.

Sure, you could level to infinity, but then you'd just fall into what I call "Dragonball Syndrom." Eventually, your character will be so ridiculously overpowered that your willful suspension of disbelief will be broken, you'll no longer be impressed when you hit a new ding and then you'll cease to care about the game altogether. And then there's some bullshit about balance that says that everyone has to eventually be the same.

Levels work in a single player game because there is an ending. You can let the player power level into infinity and just automatically scale everything to match the power curve and the game will still eventually end. Even if you reset the character to level one and take away all of their money and gear every time they die, the player will eventually beat the game. MMORPGs are technically unbeatable.

And before anyone pipes up: skill based systems are still levels. Placing limitations on skill levels basically serves the same pupose as a level cap. Unfortunately, this leads us to the problem of how to make an RPG without any form of leveling whatsoever. Personally, I don't think it can be done.

But there's still hope. Old table top games like Rune Quest and Call of Cthulhu give some really great ideas of how to balance out the power curve. The trick is to design the system that advances skills according to use and with the idea that even an experienced adventurer can be taken out by a weak but lucky creature. Combat isn't a very forgiving past-time after all. You also need to give the players enough options that no one can cover all the bases no matter how long they play. In this regard, Eve Online got it right.

The other problem with levels is in the way it has focused the overall game development to mimic the single player experience. Developers need to start with open ended concepts that allow the players and the environment to tell a story. Instead, we cling to creating web works of quest chains with the expectation of just adding to it as time goes on. This continual addition is counterproductive and expensive as hell. In games that are sold on the size of their community, wouldn't it make sense to start with the community you hope to attract and design around that goal?

I think you sum up mmorpg problems in one statement.  " you have to consider the logical end to which leveling leads and why this is a poor fit for games that (theoretically) have no end. See, levels imply an end.".

For some reason mmorpg players see mmo's as games with no end and far too often we play games for a few months beyond a free month and immediately begin to blast a game as not being everything we need and automatically turn it into something being wrong with the game.

Most good AAA titles wether an mmo or not will give a player a good month or two of solid gameplay and mmo's can and in fact do that many times over wether the game is that good or not.  I will never say DDO is as good as any offline Final Fantasy RPG I played but I easily got near the same amount of playing time on that game world as I have in any FF title. Which is where mmos strength lies to me, because I can get an mmo get a good six months playtime out of it, move on and often times come back a year or more later to find many new features implimented.

On the one hand devs have the problem of making the sub fees stretch long enough to make the game worth a continued run but that isn't my concern by a long shot mine is having a nice game to play that entertains me (along with any other needs we are trying to meet with a hobby).  And that's me conceding your point that maybe something is wrong with the industry as so many fans seem to scream and quite possibly the devs think too but I think as a community we often get what we pay for and more from mmo's we just need to lower the bar here as far as our expactations because if we looked at it that way ninety five percent of the genre is a failure as most we all know that everyone moves on at some time, there are not many games with large pools of consistently active players even great games like EVE have people who feel this way sub/play when they feel like it and move on when they don't.

Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe

But there's still hope. Old table top games like Rune Quest and Call of Cthulhu give some really great ideas of how to balance out the power curve. The trick is to design the system that advances skills according to use and with the idea that even an experienced adventurer can be taken out by a weak but lucky creature. Combat isn't a very forgiving past-time after all. You also need to give the players enough options that no one can cover all the bases no matter how long they play. In this regard, Eve Online got it right.

The other problem with levels is in the way it has focused the overall game development to mimic the single player experience. Developers need to start with open ended concepts that allow the players and the environment to tell a story. Instead, we cling to creating web works of quest chains with the expectation of just adding to it as time goes on. This continual addition is counterproductive and expensive as hell. In games that are sold on the size of their community, wouldn't it make sense to start with the community you hope to attract and design around that goal?

 I agree with a poster above. MMORPGS DO have an end. We always quit playing them eventually. They may last a long time, but they DO end.

I'll tell you why I think this is the LEAST immersive system, and why I really dislike it.

First of all, this is the system Darkfall used. I made a prediction before Darkfall released, and I was exactly right. I said, well, people will just macro or do things over and over and over again, to raise skills. Sure enough people pointed their characters towards a tree, and shot spells all night while they were sleeping to increase their skills.

This is why the "use it to improve it" system is the LEAST immersive, IMO.

Some say, this is like REAL LIFE. You get better at something the more you do it.

True, BUT, how does that really work in Real Life? In Real Life, you PRACTICE, a lot. Join the military? They don't teach you to shoot by sending you into battle. You fire on the practice range. You don't become a great boxer by jumping in the ring, you SPAR, a lot.

You don't win track and field events by jumping into races. You TRAIN running the track by yourself, a lot.

Boring, boring, repetitive, practice, practice, practice. That's how real life works. I do NOT want to "practice" in a video game, in other words spar, train at the track, go to the firing range. This leads to the scenario in Darkfall, shooting spells at trees with a macro.

And here is the other reason it is NOT immersive for me. This scenario happens all the time when you use this system.

I have a sword, I can kill Mob X with one wack, because my sword skill is really high. However, I need a ranged attack. My fireball is NOT really high.

What would make sense in the "real world"? In the real world I would use my most effective attack, anything else would not make sense. In the "use it to improve it" world, I will shoot spells at the Mob over and over again, instead of killing it with my sword, so I can increase my spell skill. Makes absolutely NO sense, but that's what I will do, because that's the only way to raise the skill.

How about we say that I went off and shot spells at a tree for a month or two, and got better at it, but I don't actually have to do that in the game?

my view on this.

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/3279109#3279109

I have never seen a game without a power scale.

Even in Eve if a Person with 10 million sp flying a Ishkur (t2) will beat a Newb with 1 million sp in a Incursus (t1 version) everytime.

you need sometype of power scale in every mmo, you need something to work toward in a mmo.

Eve may give us freedom to tweak our characters in anyway with no class restrictions but theres still a power scale. Same in DF, UO, Ryzom and other sandboxish games.

The reason classes suck is that they give you very limited freedom with an extremely linear progression. 

In my opinion Levels(lack of freedom) and Endgame are the worst things to have in MMOs not power scale.

I agree that levels are one of the worst mechanics we carried over from PnP multiplayer games. The flaws in the system were obvious over 30 years ago, os it's no wonder those issues became amplified once we transitioned to a much larger and much less controlled environment.

A DM would create a dungeon for a specific level range. He would only allow a certain level range in the campaign. Having a character off by as little as 3 or 4 levels could greatly impact the difficulty of the dungeon. The problems that levels present in MMORPGs were not new ones, just overlooked by the developers who were too busy stroking their nerd ego and their dice bag to pay attention to what they were doing.

"I have never seen a game without a power scale."

Several people are interpreting "levels" as "any form of progression system" and that is incorrect. Levels are a progression system that create a finite and linear path. An example of an alternate system would be a skill-based system like EVE and UO. Another alternate progression system would be a player skill based system like in Puzzle Pirates.

There are plenty of ways to do progression in an MMO without designing a level-centric system. Not every MMO is EQ, LOTRO or WOW.

Originally posted by LynxJSA

 

 

There are plenty of ways to do progression in an MMO without designing a level-centric system. Not every MMO is EQ, LOTRO or WOW.

 

I agree I just hope we actually see more alternatives before I leave the genre for good heh.

Just give everyone the same stuff and see what they do with it. It's no big deal. And then they can buy potions and things to help them win, but nothing that will increase killing power, or their defense rating. Maybe give everyone the same selection of skills each battle, but make it random so they will actually TRY to think about strategy.

In short: If everyone could no longer level up, and they all had the same gear, it'd (technically) be a level playing field since everyone actually has to use tactics to get better at the game instead of "lolz zurg rush". SHIMPLES! *makes queer meerkat noise*

Originally posted by Elitekill4

Just give everyone the same stuff and see what they do with it. It's no big deal.

 

In short: If everyone could no longer level up, and they all had the same gear, it'd (technically) be a level playing field since everyone actually has to use tactics to get better at the game instead of "lolz zurg rush". SHIMPLES! *makes queer meerkat noise*

Just a question, If everyone was the same level with the same gear what would keep you playing? Sooner or later doing the same thing over and over gets boring.

What would your goal be? Would you add in a skill hunting mechanic like in Guildwars to keep people specing and hunting so they stay subbed? 

You need something to work for, A way to get better then the next guy over the long haul.

Depends on the type of game.

There is this one type of game, like LotRO or AoC, that just provide good lore and fun content. You know, games that capture the "I want to see what's next"-concept. This thing that drives you through games like Gothic or Morrowind or practically any well-made single player game.

I also had this while playing WoW, I wanted to level just to see the next zones, which were very entertaining and well made.

That's what a good PvE game provides. You wanna see and play through the coming content because it inherently seems to be fun. That's completely detached from levels or power curves and games like LotRO - where you can pretty much plough through 95% of the content in solo-quest gear - really prove this.

And then, there are games like EvE, that tell you right off the bat that there won't be any awe-inspiring PvE moments and that the game will only be fun if you find people to play with. And then - again - the power curve is something that is inherently 'there', but doesn't matter. Because you can have fun just the way you are.

Just like Warhammer, where you can pretty much contribute to PvP or PvE without having any class 1 gear at all. 

What REALLY kills the spirit in games is the idea of competition between players, through PvE or PvP. Because the concept of being superior in a videogame is so essentially basement-geeky it makes my brain hurt. Still the majority of MMORPG gameplay is driven by the thought of "acquiring better gear/level/skills (TO SHOW OFF AND BE SOMEONE)".

FOrtunately, there is still a minority of grown-up casual players who still play for fun. And only for fun.

M

Originally posted by metalhead980

Originally posted by Elitekill4

Just give everyone the same stuff and see what they do with it. It's no big deal.

 

In short: If everyone could no longer level up, and they all had the same gear, it'd (technically) be a level playing field since everyone actually has to use tactics to get better at the game instead of "lolz zurg rush". SHIMPLES! *makes queer meerkat noise*

Just a question, If everyone was the same level with the same gear what would keep you playing? Sooner or later doing the same thing over and over gets boring.

What would your goal be? Would you add in a skill hunting mechanic like in Guildwars to keep people specing and hunting so they stay subbed? 

You need something to work for, A way to get better then the next guy over the long haul.

Community and fun. The same reason I've played pool billard for years. Just because it's fun. I don't get a new cue or max my super pool-skillz. Actually, I still suck as much as 10 years ago... I play with friends, sometimes I lose, sometimes I don't ...
 

It's essentially anti-progressive; we are all mediocre pool players at best, but we keep coming back to play the friggin game...

That is the essence of 'fun' and 'having a good time'

M

Originally posted by Meridion

Originally posted by metalhead980

Originally posted by Elitekill4

Just give everyone the same stuff and see what they do with it. It's no big deal.

 

In short: If everyone could no longer level up, and they all had the same gear, it'd (technically) be a level playing field since everyone actually has to use tactics to get better at the game instead of "lolz zurg rush". SHIMPLES! *makes queer meerkat noise*

Just a question, If everyone was the same level with the same gear what would keep you playing? Sooner or later doing the same thing over and over gets boring.

What would your goal be? Would you add in a skill hunting mechanic like in Guildwars to keep people specing and hunting so they stay subbed? 

You need something to work for, A way to get better then the next guy over the long haul.

Community and fun. The same reason I've played pool billard for years. Just because it's fun. I don't get a new cue or max my super pool-skillz. Actually, I still suck as much as 10 years ago... I play with friends, sometimes I lose, sometimes I don't ...
 

It's essentially anti-progressive; we are all mediocre pool players at best, but we keep coming back to play the friggin game...

That is the essence of 'fun' and 'having a good time'

M

First person shooter.

No progression, just shoot, shoot, shoot.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by Meridion

Originally posted by metalhead980

Originally posted by Elitekill4

Just give everyone the same stuff and see what they do with it. It's no big deal.

 

In short: If everyone could no longer level up, and they all had the same gear, it'd (technically) be a level playing field since everyone actually has to use tactics to get better at the game instead of "lolz zurg rush". SHIMPLES! *makes queer meerkat noise*

Just a question, If everyone was the same level with the same gear what would keep you playing? Sooner or later doing the same thing over and over gets boring.

What would your goal be? Would you add in a skill hunting mechanic like in Guildwars to keep people specing and hunting so they stay subbed? 

You need something to work for, A way to get better then the next guy over the long haul.

Community and fun. The same reason I've played pool billard for years. Just because it's fun. I don't get a new cue or max my super pool-skillz. Actually, I still suck as much as 10 years ago... I play with friends, sometimes I lose, sometimes I don't ...
 

It's essentially anti-progressive; we are all mediocre pool players at best, but we keep coming back to play the friggin game...

That is the essence of 'fun' and 'having a good time'

M

 

First person shooter.

No progression, just shoot, shoot, shoot.

 

Exactly, now: What can MMORPGs learn from FPSs?
 

That character progression is not a prerequisite of fun. A game that only featured a world and things to do in this world (explore, build, PvP and PvE) but left out progression could be perfectly successful.

Heck, LotRO, in its first year, was exactly this. You could get all the relevant gear and traits within a month. Still thousands and thousands of players stayed and played. Just for the fun and community...

M

Originally posted by Meridion

Originally posted by metalhead980

Originally posted by Elitekill4

Just give everyone the same stuff and see what they do with it. It's no big deal.

 

In short: If everyone could no longer level up, and they all had the same gear, it'd (technically) be a level playing field since everyone actually has to use tactics to get better at the game instead of "lolz zurg rush". SHIMPLES! *makes queer meerkat noise*

Just a question, If everyone was the same level with the same gear what would keep you playing? Sooner or later doing the same thing over and over gets boring.

What would your goal be? Would you add in a skill hunting mechanic like in Guildwars to keep people specing and hunting so they stay subbed? 

You need something to work for, A way to get better then the next guy over the long haul.

Community and fun. The same reason I've played pool billard for years. Just because it's fun. I don't get a new cue or max my super pool-skillz. Actually, I still suck as much as 10 years ago... I play with friends, sometimes I lose, sometimes I don't ...
 

It's essentially anti-progressive; we are all mediocre pool players at best, but we keep coming back to play the friggin game...

That is the essence of 'fun' and 'having a good time'

M

im all for fun and having a goodtime but sooner or later you will get really bored with nothing to work for.

Well I know I will. 

If fun was the only thing that kept people playing I woudl still be logging into Starcraft and Counterstrike.

The reason leveling sucks is because it's viewed as a preliminary part to the real game.  The idea that the real game doesn't start until level cap.  There's nothing wrong with a leveling process.  It can be lots of fun.  But if you spend the whole time trying to escape it, it becomes a chore.  Base a game around the whole experience, not just around the endgame.

Originally posted by metalhead980

Originally posted by Meridion

Originally posted by metalhead980

Originally posted by Elitekill4

Just give everyone the same stuff and see what they do with it. It's no big deal.

 

In short: If everyone could no longer level up, and they all had the same gear, it'd (technically) be a level playing field since everyone actually has to use tactics to get better at the game instead of "lolz zurg rush". SHIMPLES! *makes queer meerkat noise*

Just a question, If everyone was the same level with the same gear what would keep you playing? Sooner or later doing the same thing over and over gets boring.

What would your goal be? Would you add in a skill hunting mechanic like in Guildwars to keep people specing and hunting so they stay subbed? 

You need something to work for, A way to get better then the next guy over the long haul.

Community and fun. The same reason I've played pool billard for years. Just because it's fun. I don't get a new cue or max my super pool-skillz. Actually, I still suck as much as 10 years ago... I play with friends, sometimes I lose, sometimes I don't ...
 

It's essentially anti-progressive; we are all mediocre pool players at best, but we keep coming back to play the friggin game...

That is the essence of 'fun' and 'having a good time'

M

im all for fun and having a goodtime but sooner or later you will get really bored with nothing to work for.

Well I know I will. 

If fun was the only thing that kept people playing I woudl still be logging into Starcraft and Counterstrike.

 

Well there ARE still millions of players logging into countertsrike and starcraft. One of my buddies has been playing public server CS for, bah, since 1998 or something...
 

M

Originally posted by Meridion

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by Meridion

Originally posted by metalhead980

Originally posted by Elitekill4

Just give everyone the same stuff and see what they do with it. It's no big deal.

 

In short: If everyone could no longer level up, and they all had the same gear, it'd (technically) be a level playing field since everyone actually has to use tactics to get better at the game instead of "lolz zurg rush". SHIMPLES! *makes queer meerkat noise*

Just a question, If everyone was the same level with the same gear what would keep you playing? Sooner or later doing the same thing over and over gets boring.

What would your goal be? Would you add in a skill hunting mechanic like in Guildwars to keep people specing and hunting so they stay subbed? 

You need something to work for, A way to get better then the next guy over the long haul.

Community and fun. The same reason I've played pool billard for years. Just because it's fun. I don't get a new cue or max my super pool-skillz. Actually, I still suck as much as 10 years ago... I play with friends, sometimes I lose, sometimes I don't ...
 

It's essentially anti-progressive; we are all mediocre pool players at best, but we keep coming back to play the friggin game...

That is the essence of 'fun' and 'having a good time'

M

 

First person shooter.

No progression, just shoot, shoot, shoot.

 

Exactly, now: What can MMORPGs learn from FPSs?
 

That character progression is not a prerequisite of fun. A game that only featured a world and things to do in this world (explore, build, PvP and PvE) but left out progression could be perfectly successful.

Heck, LotRO, in its first year, was exactly this. You could get all the relevant gear and traits within a month. Still thousands and thousands of players stayed and played. Just for the fun and community...

M

Im a sandbox guy so I know a little bit about just playing in a gameworld for no reason other than to have fun but most people Need a reason to be there. Why are they teaming for Mobs? why are they pvping? Why do raids? Why gather and craft? you need something to work for other than just killing for fun.

Originally posted by Meridion

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by Meridion

Originally posted by metalhead980

Originally posted by Elitekill4

Just give everyone the same stuff and see what they do with it. It's no big deal.

 

In short: If everyone could no longer level up, and they all had the same gear, it'd (technically) be a level playing field since everyone actually has to use tactics to get better at the game instead of "lolz zurg rush". SHIMPLES! *makes queer meerkat noise*

Just a question, If everyone was the same level with the same gear what would keep you playing? Sooner or later doing the same thing over and over gets boring.

What would your goal be? Would you add in a skill hunting mechanic like in Guildwars to keep people specing and hunting so they stay subbed? 

You need something to work for, A way to get better then the next guy over the long haul.

Community and fun. The same reason I've played pool billard for years. Just because it's fun. I don't get a new cue or max my super pool-skillz. Actually, I still suck as much as 10 years ago... I play with friends, sometimes I lose, sometimes I don't ...
 

It's essentially anti-progressive; we are all mediocre pool players at best, but we keep coming back to play the friggin game...

That is the essence of 'fun' and 'having a good time'

M

 

First person shooter.

No progression, just shoot, shoot, shoot.

 

Exactly, now: What can MMORPGs learn from FPSs?
 

That character progression is not a prerequisite of fun. A game that only featured a world and things to do in this world (explore, build, PvP and PvE) but left out progression could be perfectly successful.

Heck, LotRO, in its first year, was exactly this. You could get all the relevant gear and traits within a month. Still thousands and thousands of players stayed and played. Just for the fun and community...

M

Except that progression is pretty much core to the whole "RPG" aspect in general. Hell, even FPS have learned that playing the same six maps and shooting people in circles gets old really really fast without something else to motivate you. What needs to happen is alternate forms of progression, including dynamic world progression IE: Players ability to essentially "level the game world". Unfortunately with instancing and other things we're drifting away from that.