Originally posted by Ihmotepp

 

I know. The truth hurts sometimes.If you give up religious oppression, there's no reason to fight any invaders. The only reason to fight is so you can continue to oppress people, and torture women and children in the name of Allah.

Freedom of religion is rather a moot point when you don't have freedom to return to your own house. Your own farm and your own shop. When you don't have freedom to trade with your neighbours or import the food you are prevented from growing yourself. When your country is divided by a foriegn military that prevents you the freedom of movement to visit your families.

Phosperous bombing schools counts as pretty serious oppression in my books too.

That you can't get over your hatred of Islam seems to be your overriding anaysis of the problem. (And all the rest of the worlds too for that matter). You want people to have freedom of religion as long as they don't choose an Islamic one it seems. That's not my idea of religious freedom.

Neither is militarily blockading mosques and air striking them for that matter.

I'm not aware of Hamas torturing women and children in the name of Allah or at all. As far as i'm aware the women in Palastine voted for Hamas too, in fact Hamas has female leaders in it's ranks, it's possible of course that the Israelis' have tortured the female members it has detained/kidnapped I suppose......and the children far from being torured by them all volunteer to fight alongside them and attend the schools they provide.

Hamas might seem evil to you, but to the people that live there the opposite is closer to the truth. It's a grass roots movement. They love Hamas not becuase Hamas hates Israel or forces them too, but because Hamas provides the bulk of  the social services they get on a strictly volunteer basis.

In Gaza for example Hamas doesn't force them to do anything. They are Hamas.

There is another bunch on the West Bank called Fatah. they have a divided political structure with Hamas there too. Hamas is democratically the peoples party but it is still very divided. (60/40 infavour of Hamas?) Fatah get all the foreign funding because they are seemed to be less confrontational with Israel.  Something that plays very well for them internationally, but utterly fails for them domestically. There is a constant power struggle there with the western sponsored Fatah movement currently on top I think.

Originally posted by Zindaihas

Originally posted by baff

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_Palestine

For those of you of Christian denomination, in the bible it's the country that Jesus comes from. 

I'm simply flabberghasted that you thought it was a name made up piss off the Israeli's.

It's a UN recognised country who's capital city is Jersualem. Much of it is currently occupied by Israel. Those parts commonly referred to as "the occupied territories". 

In 1947 after the mass migration of European Jews, the country of Palestine was partitioned under U.N. Mandate and the state of Israel created. The capital city of Israel is Tel Aviv.

 

Yes, yes.  All very interesting.  Now let's take a look at a link that cuts to the heart of the matter.

Origin of the name 'Palestine'

The earliest name for the region was "Canaan" and its residents were Canaanites.  When the ancient Hebrews conquered the land and occupied it, it became known as the land of Israel, named after the patriarch, Jacob, who was renamed Israel after he wrestled with the Lord (or an angel of the Lord depending on how you translate the text in the Book of Genesis).  Israel means struggles with God (I could not think of a more appropriate name).  After the death of King Solomon, there was a struggle for the crown and the empire split into two kingdoms, Israel and Judah.  Israel was conquered by the Assyrians, but Judah survived the Assyrian onslaught.  However, Judah eventually fell to Babylon under King Nebuchadnezzar.

Centuries later, when the region was conquered by the Romans, it was called "Provincia Judaea" because many of the Jews returned there after they had been freed from Babylon by the Persian king Cyrus and re-occupied the land.  But, in 70 A.D. and again in 135, there were two Jewish revolts again Rome.  After the second revolt, the Romans got tired of the Jews revolting and Emperor Hadrian renamed the territory, "Provincia Syria Palestina".  Palestina referring to the old Philistines who had briefly competed with Israel for the land.  The Romans were trying erase the Jews ties to the land, and thus the name change.  Notice, when it is first referred to as Palestine, it is still a Roman province, not a country.

After the fall of the Roman Empire in the West, the land passed to the ownership of many different Empires.  The Byzantine, the Ottoman, the British and perhaps a few others.  But at no time does it ever become an independent nation known as "Palestine."

By the time the UN passed a resolution in 1947 to divide the region into a Jewish and Arab state, it was referred to as the British Mandate of Palestine.  Notice in the link, that it says the region included BRITISH-ADMINISTERED Palestine and the AUTONOMOUS Transjordon.  Now it could have become the nation of Palestine had the Arabs living there adopted the resolution, as the Jews had, but the Arabs rejected the resolution and thus the nation of Palestine was never born.

Which brings us to where we are today.

this is interesting stuff, so if what you say is true, then if the romans never renamed it to Provincia Syria Palestina to erase the memory of israel (kinda like what baff is accusing of israel) then there would be no debate about this.

Only the Israeli jews don't originate from Roman Israel. They originate from Eastern Europe. They didn;t come from Egypt with moses, they came by ship from Italy. by train from Turkey.

You can rename the country any way you like. It makes no difference.

They came from Europe they pushed out the indiginous population by military force. They continue to do so.

Naming themselves after some people out of the bible doesn't change what they did. It doesn't change what they are continuing to do.

This isn't ancient history were discussing, it's current affairs.

If you want to make an argument for the ancient Romans being masters of evil too, go right ahead. It doesn't get the Israeli's off the hook for their own actions in their own lifetimes.

Originally posted by baff

Only the Israeli jews don't originate from Roman Israel. They originate from Eastern Europe. They didn;t come from Egypt with moses, they came by ship from Italy. by train from Turkey.

You can rename the country any way you like. It makes no difference.

 

They came from Europe they pushed out the indiginous population by military force. They continue to do so.

Naming themselves after some people out of the bible doesn't change what they did. It doesn't change what they are continuing to do.

This isn't ancient history were discussing, it's current affairs.

 

If you want to make an argument for the ancient Romans being masters of evil too, go right ahead. It doesn't get the Israeli's off the hook for their own actions in their own lifetimes.

lol i'm not saying anyone is a "master of evil", that just seems a bit over-dramatized imo. But tbh if you want to make the arguement that forcing people out of a country is bad, you can say alot of countries are a "master of evil". That part of land now called israel has been fought over and settled by many people. I agree, i dont like what Israel is doing with the current apartheid and racism going on in over there, but before i take sides, i would like to know how palestine reacted to the rest of the world giving the jew's land. Did they attack them first? Did Israel invade first? Not all the blame should be on Israel for the one event of even giving jew's land, the blame rests with the europian powers and usa for even putting them there. Although you also have to think, what would it have been like if Israel did come to be Israel? Would the shoe be on the other foot with Palestinians being racist against the jews? There are too many unknowns for me atleast to really get into the debate. It would be cool if people would list some of this (with resources) in the debate ... it would give it some substance imo.

It's how the Palestinians reacted after their land was given away that got them all the bad press.

European powers didn't put the jews there at all. Neither did America.

They did it themselves, through their religious infrastructure. They migrated en masse and no one was able to stop them. (Although no one tried very hard. Which is quite understandable given the revalations of the holocaust at that time and the generally shattered economies and war weariness of the world powers).

The Europeans didn't attack in the military sense of the word. They weren't a nation with an army. They were a religous faction. They pursued a campaign of terrorism against the Palestian government (British mandate). And that government just pulled out and left them to it.

Under the British mandate Palestine was earmarked as a homeland for the Jews right from the get go. Racial tensions were not tolerated although this policy did spark a seroius riot in which hundreds died.

 The indiginous Jewish faction began pushing for a seperate state at this time. 1929. A two state solution.

Blame for the migration rests with Hitler. Blame for the personal actions of those migrants rests with themelves. They didn't have to migrate. Hitler had been defeated. the Nazi's deposed. once migrated, they didn't have to encourage more migration or steal anyone elses land. No one made them. No one did it for them. they weren't "victims" in this.

The actions of the European states and America are entirely laudable in my opinion. Most of them took in as many refugee's as they could, provided escape pipelines for them from German occupied area's an not least of all liberated them from the death camps.

America in particular has gone well out of it's way to support them over the years. Britain in turn had done so before them, but also had attempted to stem the migration and protect the Palestian Arabs. Before them the Turks had kept the peace.

All the European countries have provided trade links and financial support to Israel over the years. Knowing how poorly recived they are in the Arab street, Israel has typically found culural exchange in Europe. They play in the European sports leagues and participate in the Eurovison song contest etc. Europeans are their major export zone. 

Likewise everybody sends fincial aid to the Palestinians. Although in this case it's not just the Europeans and American's who do this, it's also the Arab Street. 

The Palestinains like the European Jews before them, adopted a terrorist campaign which they have maintained to this day. What else can they do?

Plane jacking and rioting in the countries that hosted their refugee's have pretty much alienated the entire world from their cause, one which no one outside of the region really cared very much about anyway.

Had the Palestinians all moved en masse to Jewish homes in Europe and evicted them, I'm sure everyone would have been up in arms about it too. They certainly were when the Germans did it. (Although notably, not enough to declare war).

But the Palestinians didn't do that. It never happened. The shoe wasn't on the other foot and I do not agree with damning people for actions they never took.

Under the Turks there were two race riots between the Palestinian Jews and the Palestinian Arabs. And one more under the British. Certainly the tensions have always been there. But we are talking riots (albeit horrific ones), not wars and once again we are not talking about the same individual people as we are today or the same scale of conflict. We are talking about a total of 500 casualties over that 50 year period on both sides. Compare that to the 10 or so thousand casuaties in the last 25 years and you can see that we are talking about different level of events to those that had come before.

for what it's worth invasion of other peoples coujntries and confiscation of their lands broadly fits under my definition of evil whoever does it. Even if it's my lot doing it. I can justify evil... that isn't a problem for me. Understanding it and understanding it's causes, sympathising with thiose participating in it...all these are viewpoints I am able to hold concurrently. I believe for example in the concept of "necessary evil". But it's still evil. That's what evil looks like. That is it's face.

By my clock, it's Christmas day!

Glad tidings to you and all who read this.

There is a good bit of obfuscation going on here.
The post WW1 resettlement of Yisrael was zionest not a religious movement. In modern Yisrael about half the jews are not even religious, of the remaining, 10% are seriously religious "orthodox" jews yet most of these are talmudic NOT Torah Jews (i.e. they use the rabbi fabricated Babylonian talmud as their religious-political source book, NOT the Mosaic Torah.)
After WW1 the British Mandate of Palestine was 1917 NOT 1940s

the League of Nations divided up the Ottoman empire that had ruled the region since the 16th century. In 1920 (Treaty of Sevres, San Remo Conference) France got Syria and Lebanon while Britain got the rest. The brits had a history in the area stirring up the Bedouins to revolt against the Turks and maintaining the brit control of the 1870s Suez Canal, necessary for the UK to keep India "under control" and the colonization of Africa. The brits have been in bed with the arabs all along that was why it was considered a betrayal when the brits actually giving the jews a homeland in Canaan. Back in the 1920s the brits' two state solution was to give over 3/4 of the lands (lands east of the River Jordan -- transjordan) to the arabs (because they did not have enough troops to garrison that territory) and the lands west of the Jordan River to the zionist jews since it was obvious the two would never ever live peacefully together.
Over the next 20 years the brits actively tried to limit and prevent jew immigration into the lands west of the Jordan River even detaining excess jews in concentration camps on Cyprus. This led to jews using terrorist groups to harass and kill opponents to zionist resettlement of Yisrael.

The moslem brotherhood was an Egyptian sunni political organization that gave rise to terrorist groups (e.g. alqaeda) and was directly involved in assassinating moslems that cooperated with the jews (Egypt's Sadat & the King of Jordan).

The listed capitol of Yisrael is Yerushaláyim (aka Jerusalem) but actually it is Tel Aviv-Yafo (Tel Aviv) where over half the nation's jews live (~2.5M). Jerusalem is a tourist trap. The zionist have no intention to rebuild the Temple (Har haBayit content to let the moslems maintain a mosque there [al-haram al-qudsi ash-sharif]) and practice the religion as dictated in Torah, therefore the jews have no "right" to demand the lands back since those lands were "promised" on condition they properly worship G.
Zionist want all the advantages of possessing the land with none of the obligations; evangelist 'christians' support the zionist claim of the lands to further their own hopes for a quicker Messanic end times when Christ returns to earth and establishes the new jerusalem as the capitol of earth. (btw, those 'end times' detail the extermination of +80% of mankind!)

The 'european jews' are (proYiddish) Ashkenazi in contrast to (proarabic) Sefardi "real jews" that formed much of the basis of Renaissance learning into Europe. Pre WW2 about 92% of world jewry was Ashkenazi, at the end of the 11th century 97% were Sephardim.

Previous to the expulsion from Egypt the G of the Hebrews was a family Deity (i.e. of Genesis' Abram/Abraham/Avraham, Isaac/Yitzchaq and Jacob/Ya'aqov/Yisra'el), after a few hundred years bondage in Egypt and the Sinai culling the population swelled to the point the Hebrews could purge Kna-an/Canaan through genocide and reclaimed far more than the lands Jacob abandoned and Judiasm became the state religion.

Genesis (Bereishith) was the truncated history of the Hebrews told around campfires, concluding with Joseph. Moshe's story does not start till Exodus (Shemoth) about 1200bc.
Moshe (Moses' actual name with an english accent) received the Written Teaching G Himself inscribed on the stone tablets (two times). The oral Teaching received from G Moshe delivered through the five books (Pentateuch)-- as a written teaching for the sons of Israel.
Moshe warned "not to add to not take away from it." (Deut 4:2, 12:32)
The jews later added thirty-four other books and the byzantines fabricated another twenty-seven (new testament [nt]).

Patriarch Abraham was from Turkey (Ur) all he 'ruled over' was his personal family clan, not the government of a distinct country. And the ENTIRE arab-jew blood feud stems from the theft of Avraham's first son's birthright (Yismael) Gen 21.

Avraham was blessed with innumerable progeny for his obedience to the covenant, not title to Canaan Gen 17. Consider modern jews number about 20M while arabs (descendents of Ismael) number over 300M as to whose's line "was blessed with innumerable progeny."
It was through Jacob-Israel and Joseph (Yosef) that title to the lands arose.

Originally posted by baff

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

 

I know. The truth hurts sometimes.If you give up religious oppression, there's no reason to fight any invaders. The only reason to fight is so you can continue to oppress people, and torture women and children in the name of Allah.

 

Freedom of religion is rather a moot point when you don't have freedom to return to your own house. Your own farm and your own shop. When you don't have freedom to trade with your neighbours or import the food you are prevented from growing yourself. When your country is divided by a foriegn military that prevents you the freedom of movement to visit your families.

Phosperous bombing schools counts as pretty serious oppression in my books too.

 

That you can't get over your hatred of Islam seems to be your overriding anaysis of the problem. (And all the rest of the worlds too for that matter). You want people to have freedom of religion as long as they don't choose an Islamic one it seems. That's not my idea of religious freedom.

Neither is militarily blockading mosques and air striking them for that matter.

 

I'm not aware of Hamas torturing women and children in the name of Allah or at all. As far as i'm aware the women in Palastine voted for Hamas too, in fact Hamas has female leaders in it's ranks, it's possible of course that the Israelis' have tortured the female members it has detained/kidnapped I suppose......and the children far from being torured by them all volunteer to fight alongside them and attend the schools they provide.

Hamas might seem evil to you, but to the people that live there the opposite is closer to the truth. It's a grass roots movement. They love Hamas not becuase Hamas hates Israel or forces them too, but because Hamas provides the bulk of  the social services they get on a strictly volunteer basis.

In Gaza for example Hamas doesn't force them to do anything. They are Hamas.

There is another bunch on the West Bank called Fatah. they have a divided political structure with Hamas there too. Hamas is democratically the peoples party but it is still very divided. (60/40 infavour of Hamas?) Fatah get all the foreign funding because they are seemed to be less confrontational with Israel.  Something that plays very well for them internationally, but utterly fails for them domestically. There is a constant power struggle there with the western sponsored Fatah movement currently on top I think.

Do you have children? Children do not make decisions. They are not competent to do so. Adults make decisions for children. Are you not old enough to understand this basic concept of parenthood and taking care of children?

 Read more carefully. Do I hate Islam, or religious oppression? I would advocate killing Jews, Christians, or Buddhists if they forced their religion on others like Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood. The ONLY think preventing Palestinians from living in peace and prosperity is Hamas and their death cult of killing for Allah.

You may Worship Allah, all day, every day, and all night every night. Why would this be a problem my friend? But, you may not force this on others, and this is what Hamas does.

Hamas can go back to their homes if they give up Religious oppression, and embrace religious freedom.

If they do that, they can join the rest of the world in the 21st century.

If they don't, the world will be content to let them rot in misery for as long as it takes until they give up trying to force their religion on others.

Fatah is more favored than Hamas becaues Fatah doesn't believe in religious oppression.

Really, it's that simple. Just stop bashing everyone, and use your brain for a moment.

Let's say Hamas doesnt' want people to worship Allah, doesn't want to stop people from drinking alcohol, doesn't need to force women to wear a Hijab.

What then would there be to fight about? What difference would it make if the land were ruled by Palestinians or Israelis? None.

Everyone would be able to live, work, and raise thier children in peace.

But Hamas cannot give up this death cult of killing people for Allah, and forcing Sharia Law on People.

Fatah does not do this.

Now, read this calmly, and inteligently, and tell me who is embracing religious freedom, and who is embracing religious intolerance and oppression? Fatah didn't mind the beer factory. Hamas burned it down. You drop the Sharia Law, and there is no reason for this behavior.

Having won the general election 18 months ago, Hamas launched a drive to “Islamicise” Gaza, forcing women to wear the hijab and men to grow beards. It burnt down the last beer factory in Gaza and banned the sale of alcoholic drinks. Bands of youths calling themselves “Brigades of Enforcing the Good and Combating Evil” raid homes in search of alcohol, Western music and videos, unIslamic T-shirts and other “sinful items”. Young men and women found together in public, or even in private cars, are stopped and interrogated to make sure unmarried couples do not violate Sharia rules.

Originally posted by baff

 

The Palestinains like the European Jews before them, adopted a terrorist campaign which they have maintained to this day. What else can they do?

Admit defeat in an evil war to impose your religion on others. Embrace religious freedom, renounce oppression of women, and join the world in the 21st century in peace and prosperity.

This is what they can do.

You just learn to live with this, and not let it upset you, and you may have prosperity. Is this truly worth killing women and children for Allah so you don't have women and bikinis and you don't let people drink beer?

Is that truly worth blowing up innocent women and children in a market place for? I think it is not. Really baff, embrace religious freedom. It is not so bad.

Gotta love it when people think that only one side is at wrong. It is this which starts you on the path to extremism.

Humans are a discusting race in genral.

Originally posted by VforVavavoom

Humans are a discusting race in genral.

Don't be so hard on yourself.

baff, do you honestly believe Hamas builds house and helps the poor as you claimed some pages ago? Those guys are the very enemies of the arabs. They're the one firing missiles from inside schools, abusing of UN property for their goals and using money that should go to the people to buy thier weaponry, because of them a lot of generalizations happen regarding muslims and arabs, Abbas said it multiple times he's against the policy of Hamas, and he can't talk alot because they're not exactly the kind of people you can deal with using words.