Originally posted by Blurr

Originally posted by Drachasor

I didn't realize you couldn't understand what an analogy was.  That said, I've made arguments without any analogies.  Rather than counter those arguments, you just ignore them.  That's clearly because you have no counter argument at all.

It's not like my points are theoretically irrefutable.  You could point to an MMO that was made in a very short time that was good, for instance.  Of course, from a practical perspective it is impossible to do that, since such a game doesn't exist, so you resort to ad hominem attacks and the like.

 

Perhaps you should stick to triangles and cakes, it makes about as much sense but everybody likes cake. I was simply pointing out the amusement I get out of someone going into elaborate analogies about how the game is missing this or that, when they haven't even seen the game. It's quite funny. It's amusing to see how someone can become an expert on how bad something supposedly is, when they don't actually know how it is for real.

There's no point in trying a rational approach with a Crusader - a self-styled "agent of destruction" to STO via negative word-of-mouth campaign.

His mind is made up, sans the need for experience or objectivity, just like any other zealot.  Analogy is just a new way to bash the game.  His purpose will always be the same.

Having said that, none of us actually know how much, or how little, we'll like the game.  Only personal experience will answer that question for each person.

Originally posted by Rohn

Having said that, none of us actually know how much, or how little, we'll like the game.  Only personal experience will answer that question for each person.

That's fine - as long as people get to properly try out the full game before spending money on it. I doubt that will happen though. From what I heard, CO's beta was very skimpy on details. Why would STO be any different? Not to mention that MMOs are extremely secretive about their end game content.

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by Blurr

I totally understand where you're coming from, and the points you make are valid ones. However, I would like to point out that they are more things of personal opinion. Player crews is something that while some people think is necessary, others think would be a bad idea. I don't think we can really go down the road of how important crew interaction was in the series, because character interaction is by necessity one of the main points of a TV show, and endemic to the medium. You can't have a tv show without character interation. When you change the medium, you change the necessity of the importance of that aspect. Whether it'll end up being good or bad for the game, I would say only time can tell.

I think companies (who are using the IP to gain sales) have a responsibility to be faithful to that IP. Otherwise, it's just bait and switch. Players who buy the game without researching it, are going to expect to be able to play characters other than the captain.

Honestly now - a Star Trek RPG where you can't play anyone but the captain? As I have said before - there are going to be a lot of angry threads about this issue after release. Not to mention the Klingon fans.

As far as the p2p+cash shop point, I think that's just personal preference. Other games do it (WoW is p2p but you can also buy pets, or buy ingame times from the trading card game, and so forth)

 

I'm not playing favourites, BTW - I have sworn off Blizzard now because of that cash shop and their other charges for various account services.

It is about greed, and I refuse to support it.

Along those same lines, your going to have people buy the game, even though it says right on the box that it requires a monthly fee and they will turn around and complain, asking why they have to pay a monthly fee and that its stupid to have to do it. You can't please everyone when it comes to a video game. I fully suspect that true star trek fans will have already done their research about the game prior to its release and know what is in store for them. Other people buying it wont have a clue nor will they have any preconception that they are going to play a bartender in space.

And I suspect that you swearing off blizzard had more to do with you just being tired of the game in general, instead of them being greedy. The game companies are in this for making money, If they werent, you wouldn't be sitting at your computer playing video games. Oh sure, there would be some folks out there making them for the sake of doing it, but I seriously doubt you would have where near the level of quality that we have today.

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by Rohn

Having said that, none of us actually know how much, or how little, we'll like the game.  Only personal experience will answer that question for each person.

 

That's fine - as long as people get to properly try out the full game before spending money on it. I doubt that will happen though. From what I heard, CO's beta was very skimpy on details. Why would STO be any different? Not to mention that MMOs are extremely secretive about their end game content.

Seriously? Since when has game companies let you try their stuff for free? Sure a few out there have put out trials but the majority of them dont. This isn't just video games, its most software in general. Can you go to mcdonalds and try out their food for free before you decide if you want it? No. What makes you think you have the right to try out a video game for free before you buy it? Your just being foolish now.

Originally posted by DoomsDay01

 

Along those same lines, your going to have people buy the game, even though it says right on the box that it requires a monthly fee and they will turn around and complain, asking why they have to pay a monthly fee and that its stupid to have to do it.

Let's wait and see if it says on the box that you can only play the captain. I think we both know how that is going to turn out.

You are right that some people make unreasonable complaints, but that doesn't mean that all complaints are unreasonable.

Will it say on the box that the Klingon faction has much less content than the Federation side? What do you think?

 

You can't please everyone when it comes to a video game. I fully suspect that true star trek fans will have already done their research about the game prior to its release and know what is in store for them.

No. Of course not. Some will, but most will assume (rightly so) that a Trek RPG would not be so limited. And Cryptic knows that very well.

Other people buying it wont have a clue nor will they have any preconception that they are going to play a bartender in space.

Got to get that strawman in again, don't you? You can't help youself.

And I suspect that you swearing off blizzard had more to do with you just being tired of the game in general, instead of them being greedy.

You're wrong. I would have resubbed again recently to try out the new LFG system they just put in. It sounds like a good improvement to the game. Particularly for me, as I would be happy just running dungeons and battlegrounds.

The game companies are in this for making money, If they werent, you wouldn't be sitting at your computer playing video games. Oh sure, there would be some folks out there making them for the sake of doing it, but I seriously doubt you would have where near the level of quality that we have today.

No kidding - they are in it for the money. Thanks so much for clarifying that for me.

That does not excuse every dirty, under-handed scheme they can think of to get that money. A player would not defend such practices, which makes me wonder about your motives for posting.

Originally posted by DoomsDay01 

Seriously? Since when has game companies let you try their stuff for free? Sure a few out there have put out trials but the majority of them dont.

A lot of them do. The ones who aren't trying to cheat their customers, in particular.

This isn't just video games, its most software in general. Can you go to mcdonalds and try out their food for free before you decide if you want it? No. What makes you think you have the right to try out a video game for free before you buy it? Your just being foolish now.

If McDonald's was charging $50-60 for a burger, I sure would expect a free sample before I bought one for the first time.

Weak analogy, there.

What makes me think I have a right to test drive a car before I buy one? Hmmm...what do you think?

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by DoomsDay01 

Seriously? Since when has game companies let you try their stuff for free? Sure a few out there have put out trials but the majority of them dont.

A lot of them do. The ones who aren't trying to cheat their customers, in particular.

This isn't just video games, its most software in general. Can you go to mcdonalds and try out their food for free before you decide if you want it? No. What makes you think you have the right to try out a video game for free before you buy it? Your just being foolish now.

If McDonald's was charging $50-60 for a burger, I sure would expect a free sample before I bought one for the first time.

Weak analogy, there.

What makes me think I have a right to test drive a car before I buy one? Hmmm...what do you think?

All analogies are flawed at some level, but yours are weaker by far, Doubter.

There are restaurants that will cost you $50 or more per plate, and you're not going to get a free sample before eating.

Obviously, a car is much more expensive than any MMO.  But, will a dealership allow you to test drive their new car for about 7 to 14 days (average time of a common free trial) to allow you to "properly try out the full car".  Ummm, no (though with today's economy....).

I think we all realize you're trying to cultivate this jaded, cynical online persona here.  Perhaps forum RP is your true love.  But the lack of a free trial doesn't necessarily indicate anything shady or deceptive.  In fact, to someone of your mindset, if they did offer such a free trial, you'd be just as likely to say that they needed to so to coax players to try it because it was obviously "bad".

EDIT: By the way, if you were refering to the CO open beta, please elaborate on the sketchiness of info.

Originally posted by Rohn

In fact, to someone of your mindset, if they did offer such a free trial, you'd be just as likely to say that they needed to so to coax players to try it because it was obviously "bad".

Now, that makes no sense at all. A company doesn't hide a crap game by releasing a demo version.

Also, you can test how a car drives in a short test drive better than you can judge an MMO in a demo version.

More information for the players allows for better judgment when deciding to buy. Why do you oppose that?

 

EDIT: By the way, if you were refering to the CO open beta, please elaborate on the sketchiness of info.

I believe the testing was done on a very limited schedule. Limited hours and two days a week, or something like that.

ALSO: I am not cultivating a persona. I am every bit as jaded and cynical as I seem.

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by DoomsDay01

 

Along those same lines, your going to have people buy the game, even though it says right on the box that it requires a monthly fee and they will turn around and complain, asking why they have to pay a monthly fee and that its stupid to have to do it.

Let's wait and see if it says on the box that you can only play the captain. I think we both know how that is going to turn out.

You are right that some people make unreasonable complaints, but that doesn't mean that all complaints are unreasonable.

Will it say on the box that the Klingon faction has much less content than the Federation side? What do you think?

 Did WOW say anything on the box that at level 60 you would be reduced to sitting in ogrimmer for hours on end hoping to get into a raid and spending weeks trying to get your "set" armor. Did they say, you might not want to play our hunter class because when it is released they are very broken in pvp? As a matter of fact, the game from 1-59 was a completely different game than it is at 60. Do you think that falls under false advertisement?

For that matter, show me the "Free Trial" that WOW had when it released. You can't because they didnt have one. So did you buy that game on faith that you hoped it would be good or did you all those years for the free trial to come out?

You can't please everyone when it comes to a video game. I fully suspect that true star trek fans will have already done their research about the game prior to its release and know what is in store for them.

No. Of course not. Some will, but most will assume (rightly so) that a Trek RPG would not be so limited. And Cryptic knows that very well.

Anyone who plays MMO's knows that the RPG factor of it was lost years and years ago. Dont even try to go there on that one. if this was a simply RPG computer game, then yes you might have a point but again, its not.

Other people buying it wont have a clue nor will they have any preconception that they are going to play a bartender in space.

Got to get that strawman in again, don't you? You can't help youself.

What? you dont like the straight facts that someone who has never seen star trek or knows anything about it, is going to go into the game assuming they are going to play a bolian miner in some distant sector of space and become rich? Give me a break here.

And I suspect that you swearing off blizzard had more to do with you just being tired of the game in general, instead of them being greedy.

You're wrong. I would have resubbed again recently to try out the new LFG system they just put in. It sounds like a good improvement to the game. Particularly for me, as I would be happy just running dungeons and battlegrounds.

No you wouldn't have. Your tired of it. Heck even your handle says that the MMO genre for you is done. If you were happy with the game prior to them adding in a store, that store would not have mattered a hill of beans to you because most stores in mmo's only offer superficial items that dont give anyone any particular advantages in the games. So your being frustrated and quitting is obvious to anyone who reads your posts, had nothing to do with the store but the fact that you are burnt out on the mmo genre.

 

The game companies are in this for making money, If they werent, you wouldn't be sitting at your computer playing video games. Oh sure, there would be some folks out there making them for the sake of doing it, but I seriously doubt you would have where near the level of quality that we have today.

No kidding - they are in it for the money. Thanks so much for clarifying that for me.

That does not excuse every dirty, under-handed scheme they can think of to get that money. A player would not defend such practices, which makes me wonder about your motives for posting.

And what does it matter to you that they add in Extra "goodies" in a store? Sounds to me like you need to go back to playing single rpgs. Oh wait, they have added stores there to. Oh hell, you might just want to quit playing video games altogether. Its only going to get worse for you.

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by Rohn

In fact, to someone of your mindset, if they did offer such a free trial, you'd be just as likely to say that they needed to so to coax players to try it because it was obviously "bad".

Now, that makes no sense at all. A company doesn't hide a crap game by releasing a demo version.

Also, you can test how a car drives in a short test drive better than you can judge an MMO in a demo version.

More information for the players allows for better judgment when deciding to buy. Why do you oppose that?

 

EDIT: By the way, if you were refering to the CO open beta, please elaborate on the sketchiness of info.

I believe the testing was done on a very limited schedule. Limited hours and two days a week, or something like that.

ALSO: I am not cultivating a persona. I am every bit as jaded and cynical as I seem.

 

Information is one thing, a "free lunch" is another.

Websites, forums, trailers, podcasts, interviews, previews, etc all exist to inform you.  You're demanding free service instead of information.  Two different things.

An entitlement mindset is evident here.  Sorry, try a soup kitchen or homeless shelter for that.  Cryptic is running a business.

Choose to buy the game, like many people will, and you get to play it.

Choose not to buy it (it's not a staple of life), and you don't play it.

Pretty simple, and it's the way the world generally works.  Why do you feel you should be able to play for free while others pony up and spend their money for that service?

I'd expect an actually "cynical" person (lol) to be a lot more savvy about how the world works.

Originally posted by DoomsDay01

 Did WOW say anything on the box that at level 60 you would be reduced to sitting in ogrimmer for hours on end hoping to get into a raid and spending weeks trying to get your "set" armor. Did they say, you might not want to play our hunter class because when it is released they are very broken in pvp?

WoW wasn't designed as a PvP game, but you know that.

Now if one or more of the classes had been unable to get to maximum level for some reason, then that would have been false advertising.

 As a matter of fact, the game from 1-59 was a completely different game than it is at 60. Do you think that falls under false advertisement?

Your definition of "completely different" needs some adjustment. Why would anyone assume that playing 1-60 would be the same as playing at 60, when there was no more leveling to do?

For that matter, show me the "Free Trial" that WOW had when it released. You can't because they didnt have one. So did you buy that game on faith that you hoped it would be good or did you all those years for the free trial to come out?

I bought it 5 months after launch, after the recommendation of friends and a short hands-on test.

A method I recommend to everyone. I knew what I was buying when I bought it. Not end game, but I like roling alts, and knew there were 8 classes to try.

Anyone who plays MMO's knows that the RPG factor of it was lost years and years ago. Dont even try to go there on that one. if this was a simply RPG computer game, then yes you might have a point but again, its not.

Incorrect. Any game which has classes has 'roles' to play. STO could have had captains, science officers, helmsmen, engineers, medical officers, and tactical officers. 6 is a lot more than 1. You don't have to talk in character to be playing a role. When I was playing my main in WoW, I was roleplaying an Undead Mage.

No you wouldn't have. Your tired of it. Heck even your handle says that the MMO genre for you is done. If you were happy with the game prior to them adding in a store, that store would not have mattered a hill of beans to you because most stores in mmo's only offer superficial items that dont give anyone any particular advantages in the games.

Wrong again. Most stores DO offer game-changing advatages in their shops. It's pretty much inevitable that WoW will go that way too. You really need to do better research on this point.

And what does it matter to you that they add in Extra "goodies" in a store?

It matters, because it is unfair to give some players a better experience when they pay more money. Not to mention that a cash shop diverts content away from what is offered for the subscription fee, thus we are getting less while paying the same amount.

People are supposed to have an equal chance in a game. I guess fairness means nothing to you. Gouging is better.

Originally posted by Rohn

 

Information is one thing, a "free lunch" is another.

Websites, forums, trailers, podcasts, interviews, previews, etc all exist to inform you. 

They are all forms of advertising. Very little of which is meant to inform - except when and where you can buy what is being sold.

You're demanding free service instead of information.  Two different things.

Nope. I want to see how the game plays, not hear about it from people who have a financial stake in deceiving me.

An entitlement mindset is evident here.  Sorry, try a soup kitchen or homeless shelter for that.  Cryptic is running a business.

Choose to buy the game, like many people will, and you get to play it.

Choose not to buy it (it's not a staple of life), and you don't play it.

Pretty simple, and it's the way the world generally works.  Why do you feel you should be able to play for free while others pony up and spend their money for that service?

Wrong again. I want everyone to be able to try it for free.

I'd expect an actually "cynical" person (lol) to be a lot more savvy about how the world works.

I know how the world works, which is why I don't trust people who are trying to sell me something under the cover of secrecy.

You seem remarkably eager to buy things about which you are blissfully ignorant.

Originally posted by Focus*Bankai

Developers will be increasingly unwilling to talk to anyone about their games in the future for fear of a sales snarling, pre-launch insurrection, and absolutely everything they say will pass through the PR filter.

Honestly thats Good. I was Disapointed In Warhammer Online because the players and worse still the developers Showing up in mass to Praise it. If this finally makes them STFU and get back to work, and make a Polished game all the better.

And BETA Is NOT for a free trial. its to Fix bugs. The idea that a Beta would be given out with a purchase of something has allways baffled me. More so because it always results in threads Bashing how unpolished the game is... Is FRACKING BETA!!!!1! ofcourse its unpolished.

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by DoomsDay01

I bought it 5 months after launch, after the recommendation of friends and a short hands-on test.

WoW wasn't designed as a PvP game, but you know that.

And what world did you come from? it was a PVP game from the start. Look at how the areas are setup. You have contested lands all over the place. On a non pvp server you had the option of not being ganked by people in those areas unless you turned on your flag.

 

Now if one or more of the classes had been unable to get to maximum level for some reason, then that would have been false advertising.

Oddly enough, even the worst classes in any game can make maximum level given enough time. Did you know that EQ1 when it first came out had races that advanced MUCH slower than other races? Was THAT put on the box when it was sold. No, It wasn't.

Your definition of "completely different" needs some adjustment. Why would anyone assume that playing 1-60 would be the same as playing at 60, when there was no more leveling to do?

Why is it that 99% of the game is either solo, 5 man or 10 man groups when the end game at the time was nothing but 25-100 man raids? How is that NOT completely different?

 

A method I recommend to everyone. I knew what I was buying when I bought it. Not end game, but I like roling alts, and knew there were 8 classes to try.

There is absolutely no problem with doing that. but to demand that the companies give you a free trial is ignorant.

Incorrect. Any game which has classes has 'roles' to play. STO could have had captains, science officers, helmsmen, engineers, medical officers, and tactical officers. 6 is a lot more than 1. You don't have to talk in character to be playing a role. When I was playing my main in WoW, I was roleplaying an Undead Mage.

Oh look, as a captain you also have three different sub roles mixed in with it. You also have different ships for different situations. Not unlike any class that has different armor sets for different roles they will be playing in a group.

Wrong again. Most stores DO offer game-changing advatages in their shops. It's pretty much inevitable that WoW will go that way too. You really need to do better research on this point.

 

The stores that offer game changing advantages are free to play games that require that money to keep them going. Trust me, I am pretty sure I have a better understanding of how this system works than you do. Take EQ1 for example. They put an in game store into their game after 9 years. The stuff you buy in there is nothing but fluff. Oh, you can make your level 1 weapons LOOK like a level 80 weapon but it will still have the stats of a level 1 weapon. Whoopie! Yeah thats game changing right there!

And what does it matter to you that they add in Extra "goodies" in a store?

It matters, because it is unfair to give some players a better experience when they pay more money. Not to mention that a cash shop diverts content away from what is offered for the subscription fee, thus we are getting less while paying the same amount.

People are supposed to have an equal chance in a game. I guess fairness means nothing to you. Gouging is better.

Back to the same old tired and over used and completely wrong arguement. In free to play games, yes, SOME of them do offer things that will most definitely give you an advantage over others. Guess what, the game is freaking free and you complain that someone paying is getting an unfair advantage. Quit being a freaking leech and help support those game companies and you to could have some of those game altering advantages.

However, Please show me where monthly subscription games that have added games stores, that sell items that give these rich people so big of an advantage? Oddly enough, these folks usually provide the same items free in game but it usually requires lots of work to get it. most items in these stores are simply cosmetic in nature. Even if they were to start putting items in the stores that gave people advantages, then if you want to keep up with the jones's, then fork out that extra dough. If not, then leave and quit whinning about it.

This is part of the point I have made over and over again for PVP. Either make a game full pvp or none at all. If it doesn't have pvp, than an in game store that sells advantages means absolutely nothing at all to you because it doesn't change your game play at all. Wow, that guy over there is hitting for 30 more damage because he bought that cool axe off the store. Does that mean your not going to continue playing? No, It means absolutely nothing to you that some joe bought a cool axe and does more damage than you in PVE!

Originally posted by Focus*Bankai

www.tentonhammer.com/node/78277

 

the absolute BEST part of the whole article and they sum it up quite nicely.

 

Getting back to the 2,000 replies, this sort of forum overreaction embodies what a mockery beta has become. Every gasbag thinks he or she has the complete picture of the game by virtue of focus-testing a small part of the game a few hours each week, then reacts with outrage when the overall reality doesn't fit the picture in their head. What's the endgame? Developers will be increasingly unwilling to talk to anyone about their games in the future for fear of a sales snarling, pre-launch insurrection, and absolutely everything they say will pass through the PR filter. That means less information of any kind, even honest-to-goodness info, in favor of a sliced-and-diced, pre-packaged glib perception of the game prior to launch.

If that's what you all want, keep flaming. Keep interpreting dev comments on in-development games as gospel truth, instead of a snapshot of their current thinking. They're just after your pre-order money and box costs, right? Nevermind that they only make money with ongoing monthly subscriptions, threaten to cancel your pre-orders before you have the whole story
. In other words, be the asshats the Internet allows you to be, and see if devs don't give you less of a say in how these games turn out.

The only focus group with more pedantic nerd rage than MMORPG players are Trekkies. Cryptic had to know going in that they were in for one serious ration of sh*t.

As to the whole preorder collectors edition fiasco, considering the fact that various game sellers are offering completely different sets of trek nonsense baubles, which I'm sure will prompt more than a few Trek Nerds to buy more than one copy to get the whole set, you have to wonder if making merchandising money off this game isn't their primary interest. Sorry but I don't need any more Star Trek cargo cult rubbish filling up my house. They need to stop stuffing preorder boxes with Vulcan earwax flavored candy, or Seven of Nine's bionic panties, and just get back to trying to create a game that can sell on its own merits.

Things are seldom as grand as you imagine them. I can see your point, it would have been fun to have this or that, and not to mention Klingon PvE content equal to the Federation. There are a number of things that you haven't touched on that I would have liked to see, but the fact that they aren't present will not get in my way to see if there is fun to be had with this game.

You seem very passionate about what you hope for from the IP and Cryptic, which is both a good and bad thing. Clinging to the standards that the game should be in your eyes will cause you no joy at what they have created. Just as I felt when the Next Generation came out, No Kirk, Spock, Bones or Scotty, it will be a waste of time and a failure. I had a closed mind, but I did end up giving it a chance and in doing so found that it pocessed the same spirit that I had grown fond of. Had I clung to my ridged view on the IP I would have missed out on all the series that followed and I can tell you that I enjoyed every one of them. They were never as "good" as the original to me, but they stood on their own merits and added to the rich lore that Star Trek has.

Keep your heart and mind open MMO_Doubter, everything deserves a chance to be judged for what it is, not what it could have been.

Originally posted by DoomsDay01

And what world did you come from? it was a PVP game from the start. Look at how the areas are setup. You have contested lands all over the place. On a non pvp server you had the option of not being ganked by people in those areas unless you turned on your flag.

You're embarrassing yourself, now. No one would call WoW at launch a PvP game.

Oddly enough, even the worst classes in any game can make maximum level given enough time. Did you know that EQ1 when it first came out had races that advanced MUCH slower than other races? Was THAT put on the box when it was sold. No, It wasn't.

I don't even know why you are making this point, as it would not excuse such behaviour from other companies in any case. Are you honestly saying false advertising from SOE excuses the same from Cryptic?

Why is it that 99% of the game is either solo, 5 man or 10 man groups when the end game at the time was nothing but 25-100 man raids? How is that NOT completely different?

Doing 25 or 40-man raids is not "completely difeerent" from doing 5 or 10-man dungeons.

Oh look, as a captain you also have three different sub roles mixed in with it. You also have different ships for different situations. Not unlike any class that has different armor sets for different roles they will be playing in a group.

A druid in WoW can spec for three different roles, with at least as many different armour sets. It's still one class with 8 others to play.

The stores that offer game changing advantages are free to play games that require that money to keep them going.

You didn't make that distinction previously.

Trust me, I am pretty sure I have a better understanding of how this system works than you do.

Given your performance on the other issues, I wouldn't be all that sure.

Take EQ1 for example. They put an in game store into their game after 9 years. The stuff you buy in there is nothing but fluff. Oh, you can make your level 1 weapons LOOK like a level 80 weapon but it will still have the stats of a level 1 weapon. Whoopie! Yeah thats game changing right there!

Okay. Let's look at Cryptic themselves - they have added a respec to the Champions Online cash shop. $12.50 a shot. Is there any reason they won't do the same in STO?

Back to the same old tired and over used and completely wrong arguement. In free to play games, yes, SOME of them do offer things that will most definitely give you an advantage over others. Guess what, the game is freaking free and you complain that someone paying is getting an unfair advantage. Quit being a freaking leech and help support those game companies and you to could have some of those game altering advantages.

Nice rant, there. Admit it, you're in the business, aren't you?

However, Please show me where monthly subscription games that have added games stores, that sell items that give these rich people so big of an advantage?

I already have  -  CO's buyable respecs.

Oddly enough, these folks usually provide the same items free in game but it usually requires lots of work to get it. most items in these stores are simply cosmetic in nature. Even if they were to start putting items in the stores that gave people advantages, then if you want to keep up with the jones's, then fork out that extra dough. If not, then leave and quit whinning about it.

Another rant. You're not even denying it anymore.

 

This is part of the point I have made over and over again for PVP. Either make a game full pvp or none at all. If it doesn't have pvp, than an in game store that sells advantages means absolutely nothing at all to you because it doesn't change your game play at all. Wow, that guy over there is hitting for 30 more damage because he bought that cool axe off the store. Does that mean your not going to continue playing? No, It means absolutely nothing to you that some joe bought a cool axe and does more damage than you in PVE!

Even this is wrong. If I have a weapon better than yours and we are equal in other ways, then I will have a better chance of being slected for groups.

Feel to continues posting, but I'm done discussing this with you.

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by Blurr

I totally understand where you're coming from, and the points you make are valid ones. However, I would like to point out that they are more things of personal opinion. Player crews is something that while some people think is necessary, others think would be a bad idea. I don't think we can really go down the road of how important crew interaction was in the series, because character interaction is by necessity one of the main points of a TV show, and endemic to the medium. You can't have a tv show without character interation. When you change the medium, you change the necessity of the importance of that aspect. Whether it'll end up being good or bad for the game, I would say only time can tell.

I think companies (who are using the IP to gain sales) have a responsibility to be faithful to that IP. Otherwise, it's just bait and switch. Players who buy the game without researching it, are going to expect to be able to play characters other than the captain.

Honestly now - a Star Trek RPG where you can't play anyone but the captain? As I have said before - there are going to be a lot of angry threads about this issue after release. Not to mention the Klingon fans.

As far as the p2p+cash shop point, I think that's just personal preference. Other games do it (WoW is p2p but you can also buy pets, or buy ingame times from the trading card game, and so forth)

 

I'm not playing favourites, BTW - I have sworn off Blizzard now because of that cash shop and their other charges for various account services.

It is about greed, and I refuse to support it.

I find it funny in that some folks just casually look over the point that a cash shop has to have something that is desirable in order for it to make money. Else, what's the point in having it? And if said cash shop doesn't have items that people want then the developers will start adding things that they do want.

Originally posted by Focus*Bankai

www.tentonhammer.com/node/78277

 

the absolute BEST part of the whole article and they sum it up quite nicely.

 

Getting back to the 2,000 replies, this sort of forum overreaction embodies what a mockery beta has become. Every gasbag thinks he or she has the complete picture of the game by virtue of focus-testing a small part of the game a few hours each week, then reacts with outrage when the overall reality doesn't fit the picture in their head. What's the endgame? Developers will be increasingly unwilling to talk to anyone about their games in the future for fear of a sales snarling, pre-launch insurrection, and absolutely everything they say will pass through the PR filter. That means less information of any kind, even honest-to-goodness info, in favor of a sliced-and-diced, pre-packaged glib perception of the game prior to launch.

If that's what you all want, keep flaming. Keep interpreting dev comments on in-development games as gospel truth, instead of a snapshot of their current thinking. They're just after your pre-order money and box costs, right? Nevermind that they only make money with ongoing monthly subscriptions, threaten to cancel your pre-orders before you have the whole story
. In other words, be the asshats the Internet allows you to be, and see if devs don't give you less of a say in how these games turn out.

Except that if the game ACTUALLY is a good game, then they don't have to worry about it.  Both WoW and LOTRO had pretty extensive open betas, so I guess that shoots this author's hypothesis in the ass.

Originally posted by mcharj11

Originally posted by Drachasor

Originally posted by Blurr

I find it quite laughable how some people can be so focused on saying the game's being rushed, when they don't know the extent of the content in the game. We like technology that can do things faster, this is a fact. Eventually someone is bound to create a system from the ground up that can be used to develop an MMO in half the time, perhaps Cryptic is that someone. Not only that, but this is, in fact, a boon to the genre. The whole idea of an MMO is that it's a constantly evolving product. A faster iteration process simply improves this.

And that's why they've cut content?  Please.
 

You can ASSUME Cryptic has magically found a way to make a great randomizer in less time than it takes to make basic content for an MMO, but they've made plenty of randomizers before and none have been impressive.  I've played plenty of games with random content, and it is not easy to make that content something that has lasting value.

Far more likely is that STO which has a very similar dev time to CO, with similar positive initial views as CO, is going to turn out very similarly to CO.  What makes this even more likely is the fact that CO was ALSO just made by Cryptic.  What is also a fact is that no good MMO was EVER made in two years.  Frankly, I am not familiar with one that was released in good condition after 3 years.  All the successes I am aware of took 4 or 5.

 

Wasn't DAoC made in 2 years?

I looked this up.  It's a very interesting case study.  Indeed it was made in two years.  However, DAoC already had an engine, tons of graphics, and a combat system (lifted from a P&P RPG it seems).  They acknowledge using an existing engine cuts down a year, but then he adds in the other stuff they also had which cuts down more time.  (I followed the reference from Wikipedia and read an article where a dev talks about the game's creation).  STO has an engine, but it didn't have any graphics work done or any combat system.  Now, randomizing things might save graphics time (certainly in the long run, but it isn't trivial to design the program that does it).  But there is still the fact STO has two combat systems that are going to eat up a lot of time.  You'd expect then, that STO would be riddled with more problems compared to DAoC, and when you compare the two games (1.5 STO factions vs. 3 DAoC ones), you indeed see that STO is coming up short.  The ground combat in particular for STO is posing problems (and the space combat has the lack of rotation and planar shield problem which discourages 3D movement).
 

So yeah, if there is enough pre-existing material, then a game could be made in 2 years.  That requires more than just an engine though, but models, items, and apparently most of a combat system too.  In that context, it is very understandable how a game could be made in so short a time.  STO doesn't have all this factors enabling a shorter dev time though; they just have one.

Edit:  Here's a link to the article about it.