Interesting, I am one step away from clarifying my idea ;p.

My idea of a good skill system is basically a class based system backwards...I know XD

The thing that the skill based system has is exactly what you said, the character experienced a little bit of warrior and is fine with it, but doesn't want it to be his main focus, so he changes to learn a few archer abilities, he then realizes he loves sniping people and hiding from afar so he chooses to specialize in that role and leave warrior as a secondary skill.

In a class based system you would be forced to play as a warrior as your primary role, but in skill based system you could choose your primary role over time after tasting every skill, this could easily be done if for each 5 levels you advanced, you could choose to RELOCATE a skill point you might not like, maybe you tried out warrior, archer and mage, but you decide to stick with 1st -archer/ 2nd -mage, so you use your relocating items to relocate a few points from warrior which you don't really need that much to become much better at your chosen skills.

At the end when you reached an extreme, advanced enough in one or two orientations (Warrior, archer, mage) you would be given an spectacular ability like you said.

In class based system you are forced to choose without knowing how your play style will be forced to be, while in a WELL MADE skill based system you can choose what to be overtime as you experiment.

So yeah I agree with you, its all thanks to poor game design from the developers, an MMO should be made thinking about the crucial features from the start instead of your typical target and attack MMO template (wow, RoM, Allods and probably many more I haven't bothered with).

Originally posted by wisesquirrel

Interesting, I am one step away from clarifying my idea ;p.

My idea of a good skill system is basically a class based system backwards...I know XD

 

The thing that the skill based system has is exactly what you said, the character experienced a little bit of warrior and is fine with it, but doesn't want it to be his main focus, so he changes to learn a few archer abilities, he then realizes he loves sniping people and hiding from afar so he chooses to specialize in that role and leave warrior as a secondary skill.

In a class based system you would be forced to play as a warrior as your primary role, but in skill based system you could choose your primary role over time after tasting every skill, this could easily be done if for each 5 levels you advanced, you could choose to RELOCATE a skill point you might not like, maybe you tried out warrior, archer and mage, but you decide to stick with 1st -archer/ 2nd -mage, so you use your relocating items to relocate a few points from warrior which you don't really need that much to become much better at your chosen skills.

At the end when you reached an extreme, advanced enough in one or two orientations (Warrior, archer, mage) you would be given an spectacular ability like you said.

 

In class based system you are forced to choose without knowing how your play style will be forced to be, while in a WELL MADE skill based system you can choose what to be overtime as you experiment.

So yeah I agree with you, its all thanks to poor game design from the developers, an MMO should be made thinking about the crucial features from the start instead of your typical target and attack MMO template (wow, RoM, Allods and probably many more I haven't bothered with).

Have you played D&D Online? Its not like RoM where you have a primary and secondary class. You can multiclass up to three classes and you choose which class to raise every time you go to train up a level. You retain all the abilities of each class you have chosen. You could easily start as a warrior and then train as a wizard for a level, then add another level to warrior, then add a couple rogue levels. Its very flexible and doesn't really force you into any primary role at all.

Of course the downside of any game that gives that kind of flexibility is that you end up with a lot of people that try to do too much and end up sucking at everything. The same thing could happen in most skill based games as well so no big deal there.

If you haven't played DDO its worth a look, at least to check out their Builds Forum just to see what kind of characters people come up with. The game doesn't use a crappy target and attack combat either. Who knows, maybe it will turn you into a fan of class based games. If nothing else, its a prime example of what can be done with character development that is deep as hell and flexible enough to make just about anything.

I've actually been a little disappointed with Fallen Earth's skill system. Its feeling an awful lot like a game with 6 classes. Rifle, Pistol, and Melee, then three more with the same weapon choices and a crafting focus. The mutations and factions tack on a little diversity, but no more than talent trees do in WoW or the class customization of many other games.

Were MMOs fail is at making an effective and entertaining tutorial on tips of how to build your character, be it class based or skill based.

If I were ever to design a tutorial I'd do this:

I'd make a little zelda style fairy (A Shiny Blue ball with bug wings) yell at you, "Don't even think about trying to train all the skills", "just focus on the few ones you really like or you are going to sorely FAIL" and have the fairy keep crashing against everything.

All tutorials I have seen never catch my attention, with a hilarious guide I am sure I would have paid attention.

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I checked the forums and these are just the kind of characters I am talking about, but I still prefer to do it backwards though, I guess we all think differently.

if I could just gather all these ideas, character build, interactive world and epic combat gameplay, it would be epic.

Originally posted by wisesquirrel

If I were ever to design a tutorial I'd do this:

I'd make a little zelda style fairy (A Shiny Blue ball with bug wings) yell at you, "Don't even think about trying to train all the skills", "just focus on the few ones you really like or you are going to sorely FAIL" and have the fairy keep crashing against everything.

As long as its not a paperclip!

Originally posted by wisesquirrel

Were MMOs fail is at making an effective and entertaining tutorial on tips of how to build your character, be it class based or skill based.

If I were ever to design a tutorial I'd do this:

I'd make a little zelda style fairy (A Shiny Blue ball with bug wings) yell at you, "Don't even think about trying to train all the skills", "just focus on the few ones you really like or you are going to sorely FAIL" and have the fairy keep crashing against everything.

All tutorials I have seen never catch my attention, with a hilarious guide I am sure I would have paid attention.

_________________________________________________________________________________________

I checked the forums and these are just the kind of characters I am talking about, but I still prefer to do it backwards though, I guess we all think differently.

if I could just gather all these ideas, character build, interactive world and epic combat gameplay, it would be epic.

Honestly, thats part of the challenge of the MMO is to figure out on your own how to efficiently work your character's class and which are appropriate given they allow you to recover from mistakes on your build/character setup. I don't think a tutorial is necessary if not should be discouraged because then people are just going to want the developers to tell them how to play the game as well. We're not left with too many options to distinguish the good from the bad players if everyone is being told how to effectively build up their characters.

No tutorial needed, leave it up to the players to figure it out. When I play RTS's, there's no programmer leading me on with tutorials on the best strategies for a particular race/faction is or in an FPS, which weapon I should be using at a given time. Again, that's the challenge of the game and even if they did not allow you  a way to fix a talent selection or a choice made, it would make each of those development choices THAT much more important. Maybe people would stop flying through the game that way and learn to take their time and consider all their actions.

It would still be best if they could at least warn you to not make a complete mistake from which you couldn't recover from.

No guides on perfect build (The community is probably going to brag about theirs and tell everyone it is the best), because even I'm lost when I start any MMO, especially if it is too different from others, if I ever make one it will probably be completely different from these lame excuses to amuse me ;p.

Originally posted by wisesquirrel

It would still be best if they could at least warn you to not make a complete mistake from which you couldn't recover from.

Or, alternatively, to allow you to make ammends on your mistake.

With ye olde UO, for example (from what I read) - you could have at maximum, about 700 skill points, and there were heaps of skills, levelupable to 100 each.

Say you have all 700 skill points used, you could then decide to train a new skill, but reduce another skill for it.

Funnily enough, the closest thing I can think of that closely relates is Pokemon Red through to Diamond, where you have four moves and must "forget" an old skill in order to learn a new one.

I head about how everyone in DF was basically a carbon-copy of one another skill-wise.

At least with classes I'm not like everyone else.

Originally posted by Ibluerate

I head about how everyone in DF was basically a carbon-copy of one another skill-wise.

At least with classes I'm not like everyone else.

Depends on many things, but overall it depends on how you make the skill system work, and how you balance different skills.

Adding different types of attacks and attack types adds an element to the player...

Basically, if you make the skill sets either really complex, or really simple, you would likely get a fairly varied bunch of play styles.

Originally posted by Blazz

Originally posted by Ibluerate

I head about how everyone in DF was basically a carbon-copy of one another skill-wise.

At least with classes I'm not like everyone else.

Depends on many things, but overall it depends on how you make the skill system work, and how you balance different skills.

Adding different types of attacks and attack types adds an element to the player...

Basically, if you make the skill sets either really complex, or really simple, you would likely get a fairly varied bunch of play styles.

But I heard that you could level every skill as high as you wanted, so in the end, you could do anything you damn well please.

Whats the Obsession with Classless system?

My genitals were recently smashed by a plombee.  Thus, I cannot properly comment on your idiotic thread.  Cheers!

Originally posted by tro44_1

Whats the Obsession with Classless system?

Indeed.

If you mean obsession to be able to customize our character along the way, well its a bit more fun that having to choose a straight path which you can never go back again later.

You chose to be a warrior, you can't be a wizard now.

In a well made skill based system a warrior can do decent magic.

And no, no MMO so far has done a decent skill system so I wouldn't compare those with class based ones just yet..

Originally posted by wisesquirrel

If you mean obsession to be able to customize our character along the way, well its a bit more fun that having to choose a straight path which you can never go back again later.

You chose to be a warrior, you can't be a wizard now.

In a well made skill based system a warrior can do decent magic.

And no, no MMO so far has done a decent skill system so I wouldn't compare those with class based ones just yet..

Asheron's Call had a nice skill based system. If it came out before Everquest then we would probly be seeing more skill systems than class based.

Ok I'm just saying, don't compare Asheron's call as a skill based game, it makes them look bad.

I haven't played it, but I heard it lets you level all skills to the Max level, and that's not customization, thats jsut someone that is good at everything and that really discourages grouping.

Asheron's call isn't a good example of skill based games.

I would sign for

"Email me when the next MMORPG without classes is released"

Originally posted by Ibluerate

But I heard that you could level every skill as high as you wanted, so in the end, you could do anything you damn well please.

Yes, there aren't distinct playstyles in DF and everyone's a sort of muddied hybrid.  The only vaguely defined roles are that you have two main types of armor, heavy and light, with light being used by casters and heavy being used by melee/archers (because heavy armor carries casting penalties.)

It definitely weakens the presence of roles in the game.  Not a crippling failure but a disappointment as roles add a lot of teamplay to multiplayer games.  Teamplay isn't nonexistant in DF (there's quite a few support buffs), but it plays a weakened role in the gameplay.

Originally posted by Scottc

I notice in pretty much any post where someone posts an idea for their game, they always have to list classes.  But why?  It's an inferior outdated system that locks the player into a certain playstyle.  I know a few people are going to rush in here and say "Balance!", but imo that's bullshit, what matters most is the player's ability to have fun and play the way they want to play, and I think classes get in the way of that.

I wouldn't say entirely skill-based like Darkfall though is an optimal system either, because everyone can do everything and that's no good either.  Really I think the best system is a design your own class where you get a certain amount of points to pick various skills from a list, and a limited amount of points to choose your starting dexterity and stuff.

So I'm wondering, is there any reason that most of you advocate classes over a "build your own class" system?  Have you guys ever tried an alternate system?

Example of 2 Classes: Policeman and Fireman.

A Policeman can't do a Fireman's job.

A Fireman can't do a Policeman's job.

This thread is dumb.

Policeman has mid-life crisis and quits his job. Policeman goes to academy and trains to be a Fireman. Policeman is now a Fireman. Swap "Policeman" and "Fireman" and it's still correct.

People are not always "locked" into one state of being or occupation throughout their lives, or else many more people would still be a "Student", "Fast-Food Clerk", "Intern", "Benchwarmer", etc. I don't necessarily agree or disagree with the topic of this thread, but I don't think this particular analogy works here.