Originally posted by chrisel

 Usually such threads are quite civil, until a group-fanatic comes here knowing whats best for soloers by telling them to play Singler RPG's, or when they start blaming soloers for the degeneration of the MMO genre.

how uncivil is to tell the truth?  soloers really are degenerating  mmorpg games from world into boring grinding themeparks.

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Originally posted by hidden1
It seems damned if you do and damned if you don't from the developer's standpoint.  Your very argument has been stated in just the opposite by other players in that they complain there is not enough "Party/Group" content as some ppl do enjoy epic battles with full parties, and sometimes raid parties.
Both sides of the argument are valid, just not sure what can be done.  I ran into as similar problem with Ice Claw village in AION, as I was the main tank, and would advertise for 40 minutes till I would finally have a full party.  Sometimes it would take longer, but most of the time I just quit, and logged out disappointed.
The thing is though, while I do agree with you that it's frustrating to be locked out of content either due to party number requirements... or in my case, the difficulty of the "group" quest line and lack of players, I would feel cheated if all the content were solo'able... or even if you could do it w/ 2 other buddies as you put it.
Basically I understand why you feel cheated by being punished for not having a full party for certain quests, but I would also feel cheated if I payed monthly in any MMO just to find out that I could solo most of it.  I joined MMO's for that epic party experience... just wish it were easier to form parties.
About the easiest party system I found in any game was in Hellgate.  You could get in a party instantly if you put a list up or check the party list.  Maybe it was the community, or the ease of the party listing/menus?  Too bad FSS failed as a company, because sadly, and ironically, Hellgate got a lot of things right.
 

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2 different type of players which you need 2 differnt types of games to cater too. You feel cheated if they cater to the other group, they feel cheated when they cater to your group.

What the solution? As a business man I make games all soloable and even lock out groups from certain content so they dont have it easier than solo players. Why? I just dont see any popularity in grouping, or pugging, everyone says they want it but no one does it and will chose to solo over a group anytime its possible. The people spoke. Let them have it and id gladly take there money for it. Idealy they'd make games for groups and games for soloers, but I have a feeling no one would play a group only game, so these groupers always have to be included in solo games ruining the experience for soloers because they couldnt survive on their own. Juts need to look at all the games that had group heavy content and how they failed and went toward more solo friendly content. Its just a reality devs have been slow to realize because of the vocal minority claiming everyone loves pugs and RP groups. Its just not true.

Originally posted by Aeroangel

Originally posted by chrisel

Originally posted by Aeroangel

Originally posted by Getalife

Originally posted by Aeroangel

Please go back to single player games if you want solo content. MMORPGs should be about socializing and interacting with the community.

 

GROUPING is not a necessity of MMO or covered by its definition. MMO can exist without forced group content. Everything else is just a matter of opinion.

Aaand my post was completely opinion

 Your post was nothing but a rude suggestion about what us soloers should do. Its provocative and adds nothing but an invitation to a flamefest.  

 

I honestly don't understand why you are so offended by my suggestion to go to a single player game if you don't like grouping with people. If you like MMORPGs because you can chat with other people, well I've heard about like Oblivion having chat mods and such. Or maybe you are saying you want to be able to get to end game without having to interact with other people.

 

Either way I think it's ridiculous. I don't think people should be punished if they want to do *some* things on their own, but I think grouping should be encouraged and rewarded in more MMORPGs. If you aren't actually interacting with other people and doing things together what is the point??? Why should developers spend so much money to make an environment where multiple people can come together online if the experience is more like a SINGLE player game?

Actually, after re-reading your reply, I see you arent "suggesting" us to play Single RPG's, you are actually DEMANDING us to leave MMO's. How nice of you! Gee, who do you think you are? Godess of MMO's or something??

It is pointless to try explain someone with your wit why I am offended by your suggestions and why I play MMO's. If you havent understood it by now, you never will. At least I give up. Your posts here are mindless rambling, full of insinuations with no catch from the real life, as well as packed with agressive demands. On top of this you are doing wild guesses here about me & my playstyle, then you post them as "facts". Still you act "surprised" why I get offended. Well, that says alot more about you than me.

You group-fanatics act like you are "owning" the MMO world, which is by itself a reason more than enough to stay away from you and your kin. It is "your views" or "no views". This clearly shows MMO's need be even more solo friendly as they are today. Which will happen.

In your little world it seems theres only 1 single way of interacting with others in an MMO world, and thats in a Group. How incredible pathetic & narrow minded.

And you group-fanatics wonder why the majority of the MMO world don't want to group up with you...LoL.

Why do you think game-developers are using millions of money on MMO's to make them more solo-friendly? I know the answer, but I am unwilling to explain it to persons like you. It is just not worth it.

Have nice day.

Originally posted by Teiman

Originally posted by chrisel

 Usually such threads are quite civil, until a group-fanatic comes here knowing whats best for soloers by telling them to play Singler RPG's, or when they start blaming soloers for the degeneration of the MMO genre.

 

how uncivil is to tell the truth?  soloers really are degenerating  mmorpg games from world into boring grinding themeparks.

O'rly??

You are a perfect example of what I just talked about in the quote. Blame yourself, it is not soloers fault that you are having a bad gaming experience. Noone forces you to play them games. You are free to leave.

1/10.

Originally posted by chrisel

Originally posted by Aeroangel

Originally posted by chrisel

Originally posted by Aeroangel

Originally posted by Getalife

Originally posted by Aeroangel

Please go back to single player games if you want solo content. MMORPGs should be about socializing and interacting with the community.

 

GROUPING is not a necessity of MMO or covered by its definition. MMO can exist without forced group content. Everything else is just a matter of opinion.

Aaand my post was completely opinion

 Your post was nothing but a rude suggestion about what us soloers should do. Its provocative and adds nothing but an invitation to a flamefest.  

 

I honestly don't understand why you are so offended by my suggestion to go to a single player game if you don't like grouping with people. If you like MMORPGs because you can chat with other people, well I've heard about like Oblivion having chat mods and such. Or maybe you are saying you want to be able to get to end game without having to interact with other people.

 

Either way I think it's ridiculous. I don't think people should be punished if they want to do *some* things on their own, but I think grouping should be encouraged and rewarded in more MMORPGs. If you aren't actually interacting with other people and doing things together what is the point??? Why should developers spend so much money to make an environment where multiple people can come together online if the experience is more like a SINGLE player game?

Actually, after re-reading your reply, I see you arent "suggesting" us to play Single RPG's, you are actually DEMANDING us to leave MMO's. How nice of you! Gee, who do you think you are? Godess of MMO's or something??

It is pointless to try explain someone with your wit why I am offended by your suggestions and why I play MMO's. If you havent understood it by now, you never will. At least I give up. Your posts here are mindless rambling, full of insinuations with no catch from the real life, as well as packed with agressive demands. On top of this you are doing wild guesses here about me & my playstyle, then you post them as "facts". Still you act "surprised" why I get offended. Well, that says alot more about you than me.

You group-fanatics act like you are "owning" the MMO world, which is by itself a reason more than enough to stay away from you and your kin. It is "your views" or "no views". This clearly shows MMO's need be even more solo friendly as they are today. Which will happen.

In your little world it seems theres only 1 single way of interacting with others in an MMO world, and thats in a Group. How incredible pathetic & narrow minded.

And you group-fanatics wonder why the majority of the MMO world don't want to group up with you...LoL.

Why do you think game-developers are using millions of money on MMO's to make them more solo-friendly? I know the answer, but I am unwilling to explain it to persons like you. It is just not worth it.

Have nice day.

But the person has a point that you seem to not get. You are a soloer....and MMORPGs are meant for groups...not for people to solo their way through. It is not groupers ruining the experience of MMORPGs for you but you that is ruining it for yourself by the mere fact of thinking you solo nearly everything in the game and are mad when you can't because you NEED a group. There is a point to some quests and some places where you need groups. Say you get to a big boss, you would need a tank, a healer, a dps, etc....and you are just a tank, what are you going to do now? Sometimes it is better to have multiples of each so that it would make it easier. You don't have to play Single Player games but come on...don't complain to people when you can't do something because you refuse to make "friends" for the short amount of time you are with them.

Originally posted by Einherjar_LC

I actually agree with the OP about the quest chains.

 

I hate flowing along, 6 or 7 steps into the chain only to be stopped in my tracks because one part takes a group.  I don't dislike grouping at all and do it whenever I can, but if a quest chain starts off solo, leave it solo.  If you want a group chain, make the whole chain a group chain.  Just a preference more than a complaint on my part.

 

I actually agree with the scaling idea as well with one exception.  Don't make them scaleable until you release your next expansion.  At that point many people are past that content and groups may be hard to find for those coming up in the lower level areas.  New content, if group oriented, should remain so until the majority of the playerbase has moved past it.

First, the original poster should be single player games. It is ignorant to join a MMO and expect all content to be solo. I do agree about quest chains though. I believe quest should always be repeatable, sharable and none chained. Chaining quest and them not being repeatable always leads to a more difficult time getting people together that have the same quest.

If what I suggest was done, then everyone would always have the potential to be on the quest you are on, therefore being more group friendly.

Originally posted by Pryetta

But the person has a point that you seem to not get. You are a soloer....and MMORPGs are meant for groups...not for people to solo their way through. It is not groupers ruining the experience of MMORPGs for you but you that is ruining it for yourself by the mere fact of thinking you solo nearly everything in the game and are mad when you can't because you NEED a group. There is a point to some quests and some places where you need groups. Say you get to a big boss, you would need a tank, a healer, a dps, etc....and you are just a tank, what are you going to do now? Sometimes it is better to have multiples of each so that it would make it easier. You don't have to play Single Player games but come on...don't complain to people when you can't do something because you refuse to make "friends" for the short amount of time you are with them.

Says who, exactly?

I often see this opinion on these forums, and I always wonder at the experiences of the people who promote it. I've been playing MMOs since 1997 and I've never believed that "MMORPGs are meant for groups". Is this an opinion unique to EQ vets and people who have joined post-WoW?

My first MMO experience was UO. I barely ever "grouped" with anyone.

I was in a large and active guild and had a ton of fun with the game, but it was never "meant for groups" from my perspective. I was certainly not denied any content from my chosen playstyle.

My next experience was EQ. I quit after a couple days because I didn't wanna sit LFG for hours just to go grind the crap out of a camp of monsters.

Next up was SWG. I spent most of my time running missions, exploring for resource, crafting buildings (I was an architect) and socialising in the cantinas and such. Again, I don't think I ever grouped until the Corvette was added.

From my perspective, an MMO that has soloable content is old-skool.

You guys need to quit complaining.  You couldn't even take a dump in the woods in EQ1 w/o a full party (including chanter).

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Originally posted by Pryetta

But the person has a point that you seem to not get. You are a soloer....and MMORPGs are meant for groups...not for people to solo their way through. It is not groupers ruining the experience of MMORPGs for you but you that is ruining it for yourself by the mere fact of thinking you solo nearly everything in the game and are mad when you can't because you NEED a group. There is a point to some quests and some places where you need groups. Say you get to a big boss, you would need a tank, a healer, a dps, etc....and you are just a tank, what are you going to do now? Sometimes it is better to have multiples of each so that it would make it easier. You don't have to play Single Player games but come on...don't complain to people when you can't do something because you refuse to make "friends" for the short amount of time you are with them.

Says who, exactly?

I often see this opinion on these forums, and I always wonder at the experiences of the people who promote it. I've been playing MMOs since 1997 and I've never believed that "MMORPGs are meant for groups". Is this an opinion unique to EQ vets and people who have joined post-WoW?

My first MMO experience was UO. I barely ever "grouped" with anyone.

I was in a large and active guild and had a ton of fun with the game, but it was never "meant for groups" from my perspective. I was certainly not denied any content from my chosen playstyle.

My next experience was EQ. I quit after a couple days because I didn't wanna sit LFG for hours just to go grind the crap out of a camp of monsters.

Next up was SWG. I spent most of my time running missions, exploring for resource, crafting buildings (I was an architect) and socialising in the cantinas and such. Again, I don't think I ever grouped until the Corvette was added.

From my perspective, an MMO that has soloable content is old-skool.

From one of the old RPGs, what did you always have? A group....right? Whether controlled BY you or by other players it was still party members. MMORPGs give you more than just AI, they give you real people you can talk to. Some games you CAN solo, some games you cannot solo. To sit there and complain because suddenly you can't solo is funny. It is horrible that people make you interactive with other people. How horrible of them to not think of your needs and your wants. I hate group like the next person but I will do it when I have to and not complain about it because content is closed to me because I choose to solo something.

You seem to forget...even in Live-Action role playing, you can't do it alone..it is always with a group. RPGs like Final Fantasy and others forced a group upon you for the mere fact that it was needed, now that it is suddenly in MMOs, it is horrible and should of never happened. I say those who play RPGs in the past but complain now are hypocrites.

Originally posted by Varny

 All the time I play through an mmorpg and I'm doing this long solo chain quest and then get a quest which says "group only". I just feel cheated and denied content, especially seeing as you then have to spend a year getting a group. Often you never do and you end up deleting that quest and missing out on content you really wanted to play. I mean a player crafted economy wouldn't ever have this problem and I remember in SWG you could have giant groups which were more than enough to take down a  boss. I mean I just want to play the content for fun and hate feeling punished because it's a loot based economy and they need to come up with a way to make items rare.

Why not just scale the dungeons to how many players you have? Quite often I'll only play with 2 other friends and we don't wanna be joined with someone who will ruin our experience. However we wont be allowed to do the dungeon because it's for a raid or 5 players only. Why can't the mobs just be made easier for 3 people or even soloable? There are Single Player games out there which are way harder than Raiding and besides it takes way more effort with fewer people because you all really have to pitch in. I mean I love to heal and I've carried two of my mates across content where we're nearly dying every second and it took hours and was much harder than any Raid I've done where I'm told targets and spam buttons mindlessly. 

I just hate this constant "You Can't do this content because you don't have enough people". No let me play how I want to play with two of my friends and stop making play how I don't want to with giant groups of people I don't care for. If there are people that like raids or group instances with random people then fine but let me play with the amount of people I want to.

 

In SWG Pre NGE I did Avatar for the first time and I wasn't even needed in the group, there were more group slots than needed. So I just tagged along and had fun with my noob character, couldn't do much but I was having fun and so was everyone else. In mmorpgs today theres never that freedom to have fun and it's always stress of needing everyone in the group. If you try to join a PUG then arguments break out because people aren't doing their job. Just give us freedom to enjoy the game.

You, my friend, are aiding in the decline of the MMO...

They were never made to be single player games...if you want that, play Elder Scrolls, Two Worlds, Risen, Sacred, Dragon Age, etc....

MMOs are MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER, and were meant to be played with MANY PLAYERS... it is supposed to be ALL about grouping and being social...

...but because of players like you, devs are making MMOs solo friendly, and the communities are dying because gamers like you are hiding away within your solo instances and the like...

Originally posted by Pryetta

From one of the old RPGs, what did you always have? A group....right? Whether controlled BY you or by other players it was still party members. MMORPGs give you more than just AI, they give you real people you can talk to. Some games you CAN solo, some games you cannot solo. To sit there and complain because suddenly you can't solo is funny. It is horrible that people make you interactive with other people. How horrible of them to not think of your needs and your wants. I hate group like the next person but I will do it when I have to and not complain about it because content is closed to me because I choose to solo something.

Absolutely correct statement, with an absolutely incorrect conclusion.

An MMORPG is an RPG that you can play in an online, persistent world full of other players. That is all. Grouping is not the only player interaction that an MMO offers, it's just one of them. For some of us, it's just not a very appealing one.

It's all about preference.

You seem to forget...even in Live-Action role playing, you can't do it alone..it is always with a group. RPGs like Final Fantasy and others forced a group upon you for the mere fact that it was needed, now that it is suddenly in MMOs, it is horrible and should of never happened. I say those who play RPGs in the past but complain now are hypocrites.

LARP is not MMORPG. If you're intention is to make the statement that LARPing is made for grouping, then I would agree with you 100% .. but LARP is not MMORPG.

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Originally posted by Pryetta

From one of the old RPGs, what did you always have? A group....right? Whether controlled BY you or by other players it was still party members. MMORPGs give you more than just AI, they give you real people you can talk to. Some games you CAN solo, some games you cannot solo. To sit there and complain because suddenly you can't solo is funny. It is horrible that people make you interactive with other people. How horrible of them to not think of your needs and your wants. I hate group like the next person but I will do it when I have to and not complain about it because content is closed to me because I choose to solo something.

Absolutely correct statement, with an absolutely incorrect conclusion.

An MMORPG is an RPG that you can play in an online, persistent world full of other players. That is all. Grouping is not the only player interaction that an MMO offers, it's just one of them. For some of us, it's just not a very appealing one.

It's all about preference.

You seem to forget...even in Live-Action role playing, you can't do it alone..it is always with a group. RPGs like Final Fantasy and others forced a group upon you for the mere fact that it was needed, now that it is suddenly in MMOs, it is horrible and should of never happened. I say those who play RPGs in the past but complain now are hypocrites.

LARP is not MMORPG. If you're intention is to make the statement that LARPing is made for grouping, then I would agree with you 100% .. but LARP is not MMORPG.

 

I wonder how a game would be if everyone wanted to Solo and have no groups..oh wait, I've seen that...TQ games are like that, no one wants to play with people, they prefer to solo and I can say for a fact...it sucked, the games started to depend on those who spent 3000 a WEEK to be the top players instead of working for it.

As for Live Action Roleplaying, it does need a group. But take RPGs for example then....you are ALWAYS in a group, you NEVER solo anything...at all, you always got some healer, some tanker, some dps with you..following you around. Even if they are controlled by you, it is still a group in general. What is with group with other people? I know people suck, but what is the point of complaining about it when you can't do some things that are meant for groups?

 I'll have to agree with the OP theres nothing more annoying than doing a quest chain solo and then having to find a party for the rest. In a game like Aion i'd wait for a KHQ group for up to an hour, and finally get a group only to have it fall apart after about 20 mins. I personally think WoW did it the best, they strategized group quests and solo quest very well. End game in WoW was really good for both soloing and grouping. If I wanted to solo I could, if I wanted to group I could it was an amazing synergy. Lineage 2 also did a good job on solo and grouping, cruma tower was one of the best group non instance experiences i've ever had, but like most group content sometimes it was a pain in the ass to find a tank/healer. 

However I don't think a mmo should be all solo content, and realistically there isn't one single mmo i've played that is completely solo content lets get serious. 

Originally posted by Pryetta

But the person has a point that you seem to not get. You are a soloer....and MMORPGs are meant for groups...not for people to solo their way through. It is not groupers ruining the experience of MMORPGs for you but you that is ruining it for yourself by the mere fact of thinking you solo nearly everything in the game and are mad when you can't because you NEED a group. There is a point to some quests and some places where you need groups. Say you get to a big boss, you would need a tank, a healer, a dps, etc....and you are just a tank, what are you going to do now? Sometimes it is better to have multiples of each so that it would make it easier. You don't have to play Single Player games but come on...don't complain to people when you can't do something because you refuse to make "friends" for the short amount of time you are with them.

Show me one place where is says that MMORPG's are made or meant for groups! Show me one single place where it says it is like that MMORPG's "has" to be!

The rest of your post I refrain from replying to as it is only one more rude reply, filled (again) with insinuations, lame assumptions, "psychiatry" theories as well as out-of-dated view upon classes with "traditional roles". Dear god, if that is how it is being an "old schooler" I am happy to announce I have a modern view. 

Stay inside your box, you would probably drop dead if you had a wake up call & reality check outside it.

Originally posted by chrisel

Originally posted by Pryetta

But the person has a point that you seem to not get. You are a soloer....and MMORPGs are meant for groups...not for people to solo their way through. It is not groupers ruining the experience of MMORPGs for you but you that is ruining it for yourself by the mere fact of thinking you solo nearly everything in the game and are mad when you can't because you NEED a group. There is a point to some quests and some places where you need groups. Say you get to a big boss, you would need a tank, a healer, a dps, etc....and you are just a tank, what are you going to do now? Sometimes it is better to have multiples of each so that it would make it easier. You don't have to play Single Player games but come on...don't complain to people when you can't do something because you refuse to make "friends" for the short amount of time you are with them.

 

Show me one place where is says that MMORPG's are made or meant for groups! Show me one single place where it says it is like that MMORPG's "has" to be!

The rest of your post I refrain from replying to as it is only one more rude reply, filled (again) with insinuations, lame assumptions, "psychiatry" theories as well as out-of-dated view upon classes with "traditional roles". Dear god, if that is how it is being an "old schooler" I am happy to announce I have a modern view. 

Stay inside your box, you would probably drop dead if you had a wake up call & reality check outside it.

The whole fact that even in single player games you got a group....says more than enough about MMORPGs...As MMOs grow and you can become a Tank/Healer, we'll be good but for now, most games don't put this in..though it would be great. A healer can tank to a certain point because they can heal themselves constantly and buff themselves.

And for the mere fact that a lot of quests say "[Party]" by them means you need a party unless you surpass the level needed for the quest and can solo it on your own. Do that if you don't want to party.

Originally posted by qombi

Originally posted by Einherjar_LC

 

First, the original poster should be single player games. It is ignorant to join a MMO and expect all content to be solo. I do agree about quest chains though. I believe quest should always be repeatable, sharable and none chained. Chaining quest and them not being repeatable always leads to a more difficult time getting people together that have the same quest.

If what I suggest was done, then everyone would always have the potential to be on the quest you are on, therefore being more group friendly.

Funnily enough, noone would group unless they are forced to do it. Isnt that worth a thought or 2? ;)

For those that are defending and chrisel (even though this one shouldn't be even defended) what people are saying is that it's a bit selfish on wanting a game to be solo or forced grouping and that's what the op and chrisel are being fought against they want to be able to do everything in an mmorpg (I'll bold it) alone without the need of any help including dungeons and bosses.

I hate forced grouping and hate too soloable to cap games but nothing wrong with something in the middle that many games (mmos) do. If you can't waste a day to stop from progressing to finish x quest by asking help or join some friends/guildies when they are already or going to go there it's stupid sorry to play and pay monthly an online game.

Everyone here surely done some things while playing mmorpgs alone and mostly also think that it can get boring if your always alone.

I stopped replying here because chrisel will argue with anyone that doesn't agree with him that soloing everything is not bad in an mmorpg and might even call you idiot for that lol. I replied politely didn't even tell him he's dumb or such things but with people that act like children I'd rather not have more time wasted on trying to point them that soloing everything even bosses and dungeons in an mmorpg is not right.

So have fun chrisel on playing alone maybe someday you'll realize that it's boring doing everything alone.

See below.

Originally posted by Pryetta

I wonder how a game would be if everyone wanted to Solo and have no groups..oh wait, I've seen that...TQ games are like that, no one wants to play with people, they prefer to solo and I can say for a fact...it sucked, the games started to depend on those who spent 3000 a WEEK to be the top players instead of working for it.

Why are you looking at this issue from such a black and white perspective?

It is entirely possible for an MMO to have both solo and group content. It doesn't have to be either/or. Most people (myself included) enjoy doing both from time to time. I like soloing. I like grouping sometimes too.

What I don't like is that the game arbitrarily decides when I should group, especially in situations where I'm 90% through a quest chain and get smacked with "ok, now you need more players .. what's that? .. none of your friends are on? .. then screw you!"

As for Live Action Roleplaying, it does need a group. But take RPGs for example then....you are ALWAYS in a group, you NEVER solo anything...at all, you always got some healer, some tanker, some dps with you..following you around. Even if they are controlled by you, it is still a group in general. What is with group with other people? I know people suck, but what is the point of complaining about it when you can't do some things that are meant for groups?

As above.

Originally posted by rozenblade1

Originally posted by Varny

 

You, my friend, are aiding in the decline of the MMO...

They were never made to be single player games...if you want that, play Elder Scrolls, Two Worlds, Risen, Sacred, Dragon Age, etc....

MMOs are MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER, and were meant to be played with MANY PLAYERS... it is supposed to be ALL about grouping and being social...

...but because of players like you, devs are making MMOs solo friendly, and the communities are dying because gamers like you are hiding away within your solo instances and the like...

No.

MMO genre is as healthy as never before. You are rambling.

Go play DDO.