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Originally posted by Einstein-DF

 

 Well it trully is hard to get something from an article made by a veritable carebear who gives opinions for games he should never even write about.

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Oh, look, this is where I get to list all the PvP-focused games I've played and enjoyed through the years, from Ultima Online to Modern Warfare (not to mention the ones I've, you know, worked on), only to be told that because I haven't spent years in the poster's favorite game/guild/8v8 group that I'm some easily dismissed scrub!

Originally posted by Yamota

When all is said and done a scripted AI mobile cannot reach anywhere near the playing skills of an averagely intelligent player. The game has to have a very defined play field, such as chess, for an AI to compete with a human and MMORPGs are not so strictly defined.

So since MMORPGs are by definition for massively amount of people, why would you then spend your time competing with an AI? Isnt a single player game the natural choice for that?

If that is the case, why not build scripts for the AI specific to the mob and its environment (or to use your term, a defined play field.) Since you generally find mobs in a certain area of the game, they could be tailored to fight in different ways, depending on their location and direct surroundings. Would this be possible, or is it an insurmountable endeavor?

If it is possible, then the player would not only have a "capable" and "versatile" mob to fight, but once the player learns the patterns, they will be able to recognize players who do not follow said patterns. Both mob and player would be able to fight intelligently at different levels, but at least the gap of difference between them would be lessened, I think.

I think fighting other players should be a challenge, but one that doesn't completely take you out of the surrounding game experience. Knowing I'm fighting a player vs. a mob is a departure in and of itself aside from the drastic differences in builds/gear that I've seen come with them in today's games.

Hardcore players tend to be attracted to player vs. player as a game style, because it's one of the "endgame" play styles in MMORPGs and attractive to players who are bored with AI opponents.

This imo is what is wrong with "Hardcore PVP" games.  They are not end game goal pvp oriented.  Far too often, while the endgame is entirely pvp oriented, new players have to deal with older players coming into the new player areas and pking them with little or no chance of retaliation.  New players become frustrated and leave causing the player base to stagnate and eventually dissolve as the older players become board with fighting the same people over and over.  Level restrictions or pve areas become very necessary as the game matures to keep the influx of new players coming in.  DAoC did this very well, and even went the extra step to provide balanced pvp areas for lower level players so they did not have to take their level 14 toon up against a maxed out level 50 toon to enjoy a brake in the monotony of grinding.  More games built on their model would make a successful gaming company, again imo.

 

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Originally posted by gotha

 

You should link you blog entry about how to make PvP in a game work.

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Cant be sooo hard to think these ,lets take wow for example becos pretty much everyone knows something about it.

now theres character classes like priest ,hunter,serialkiller,mage,paladin

skills of the serialkiller,you can kill everybody in the game,no matter what ,you dont need any reason to do so ,why,well,becose you are serialkiller??woo imagine that!you cant speak ,you cant write to any chat,even serialkillers dont talk with each other,you cant visit any cities,no NPC talks to you etc..

Darkfall example ,you kill people who are not hostile to you,first you will lose your race chat,then global chat ,and after all what you have done you will lose all your chats and ability to use any vendors and you cant speak to NPCs anymore,and theres no way to come back,only way is reroll,or something like that.

just something what came into my mind.

Found the article to be interesting and very ironic.

I have been a casual darkfall player since NA launch. As you may know a major expansion was released last week. Having a rare day off today I decided to check the official forums this morning for the first time maybe ever just to see what the expansion reactions were like.

Sure enough it was full of raving lunatic's threatening to quit because polearms were "nerfed" last week. I really have no opinion on the matter but the way you directly addressed this type of thing in your article was so funny to me. You also pointed something else out perfectly. All the hardcore players in Darkfall have been using polearms since launch. Sure enough though if you look at the official forums these said lunatic's will scream bloody murder if you bring that up.

Thx again for the article. Relieved my headache from reading those forums lol. I'm thinking one of forum warriors is going to track me down in this thread and post some kind of polearm diatribe!

Cheers.

Originally posted by battleaxe

Unfortunately, open PVP in a PVE based game brings out the griefers, and griefers ruin it for everyone else.  "Look at me, I'm level 809 and you're level 2...I can keep you dead indefinitely.  Hahaha!  I Roxor'd u, N00b!  Fear my l33ts!  Have a nice cry as you quit the game never to return.  Gee, where'd everyone go?"

Leveling in Shadowbane was a joke.  Go to the right spot, setup one of your high level guildies to auto-kill everything that spawns, come back in a few hours to find your toon at max level.  If that's going to be the norm, why do it in the first place - just spawn players at max level.  I miss my Confessor, tho.

PVP balance IS hard.  Having any form of incapacitation makes the game just plain frustrating, since "you can't do that while stunned".  If I can't even use my abilities to defend myself before I'm dead, why am I playing?  I can understand getting one-shotted - that's actually expected, as long as I'm not killed from blanket invisibility (rogue "stealth" in MMORPGs is almost always implemented stupidly, but that's a whole other topic).  I can't understand standing there letting a guy whittle my health down while I can't do anything.

Balancing range versus melee is probably the toughest challenge.  Range attackers are almost always squishy, which means they have to kill a melee attacker before that attacker gets near or it's game over.  Melee have to be able to get close or they won't get a chance to kill the squishy.  In the real world, the ranged attacker wins simply by getting a decent hit - accuracy guarantees the win.  How do you model this into a game fairly without making the win simply based on random number generation or stupid gimmicks like jittery crosshairs or cone of fire blooms?

I agree with you about the stuns. It frustrates me to no end that I can't even use the character I love to compete against a class who can keep me unconscious until I succumb to my wounds.

In regards to ranged attacks, I also agree with you. My problem with ranged classes is that ranged attacks in and of themselves are an advantage. I would like to see a game where everyone can make use of said advantage, but have it situational. I sigh every time a hunter pops out of nowhere and kills me before I can get up to him with my melee class. That isn't very fun if I can't  use some form of ranged counter-attack, or at least take some cover!

I think an answer can be found in the departure from class-based systems. Sure, keep the idea of archetypes in the game to give a vision of what skills do what and how to get them, but allow people to create a balance between melee and ranged. To give a console title as an example (game mechanics aside), Demon's Souls allowed players to use both ranged and melee attacks according to their stats and equipment choice. The game has character archetypes, but not ones that completely defined your character's play style for you. Please correct me if I'm wrong, as that may have been a poor example.

love the article.

as a non-pvper (carebear)  I am quite anti PVP  for several reasons   first many of the PVPers ive meet seem to be well... jerks 

immature, wanting to proof how big their manhood is  even if it means killing vastly weak and unarmed players, some just like caussing other players pain.

game developers do tend to seem to create games in isolation  "reinventing the wheel" as it were,, some things need to be the same or similar  almost standardized  like resizeable windows in the UI (suprising how many games havent included this 20th century advancement)

as a "carebear" i tend to follow these pvp rules

1. for the most part I want to be able to choose when I participate in PVP encounters  that measn if im farming or mining  im not wanting to have to worry about being ganked. i dont want the game play GIMPED to try to force me to PVP.

2. I want different  extreems to the PVP areas  some being non-lethal   so that i can "test the waters" or get some expirence fighting PVPers without the all or nothing risk.

3.  I prefer areas or  battle lines or neutral zones  where I know  that PVP occures there. i dont mind if  these areas change or fluxuate like areas of control.

4.  as a casual player  I want to be able to be effective enough to survive long enough to be able to enjoy PVP.  if im gonna travel for 2 hours  and end up dieing in the first 5 seconds  or that  the enemy is so advanced there effectivly immune to anything I do that I wont bother showing up.

I was going to use EVE for my example  since its very hard core PVP  and your effectivly not safe anywhere  and non-PVPers are 2nd class citizens   and they are the ONLY viable scifi MMO operating   you either  tough out a meger existance  or you leave the game,, I have encountered many EVE refugees    I thought STO was gonna make EVE into a ghost town  but its obvious  that STO is not up to the task.

anyone ever make a casual player friendly version of EVE  let me know (though i do hope they do a better job of adding content to their solar systems and planets)

You know I've always wondered why developers don't make PvPvE games that separate PvP skills/stats/items from PvE ones more often (if ever?).  Sure it'd be more time consuming but would help alleviate problems with balancing for PvP screwing up PvE or vice versa.  In essence the it'd be more time consuming thing would balance itself out because you wouldn't be performing a high wire act trying to not break one or the other.

Anyway, good read.  And you should have known that if you weren't going to boast about the wonders of PvP in your article then you know you suck, are a carebear, know nothing of MMOs, hate your mom and whatever...

Originally posted by LumTheMad

Originally posted by Zerackus

I would love to address these comments. Shadow Bane as a PVP game was a complete success. Yes, it was a horrible launch with bugs, lag and really just a beta, but as a PvP game it did "Crush". there has been nothing like it, build an empire, defend it, make alliances, use politics or watch your Keeps fall.

Leveling was simple, easy, and fast, I have no clue where "tedious" leveling came from, being a vet of the game, it was days to reach max level. The character combos and templates and flavors of the month chars, were awesome. Something new always answered the "it" build.

 

If Shadow Bane was launched right, polished, and run and supported correctly, we would still be playing the game this very day. It truely was the only PvP game since UO for us PvPers!

 

I think we're in basic agreement. Shadowbane was a fun game for the people that grokked it and wanted free-form PvP - as I said, the basic design was sound. Where it fell down was in execution - players simply weren't willing to put up with the level of bugs and lack of polish. The game never was able to recover from its launch. And by "tedious levelling" - the game was very much not built around PvE, yet required PvE levelling. Monsters in the game were generic, boring bags of semi-mobile XP with little rhyme  or reason. Hardcore players didn't care because they got in guild groups and AFK-botted their way to max level. Players not as hardcore got bored and frustrated and left. Thus you had a game with few players, little profitability, and eventual closure.

funny mentioning this since darkfall just revamped their whole pve AI to make it more of a challenge and enjoyable.

That was just one big whinefest.

Don't like pvp, don't do it. or don't play the game. It's really that simple.

I dislike questing, should I cry about it in every other thread too?

Originally posted by Sabiancym

That was just one big whinefest.

Don't like pvp, don't do it. or don't play the game. It's really that simple.

 

I dislike questing, should I cry about it in every other thread too?

dont like pvp,dont´t do it,or don´t play the game called real life.It´s really not that simple

theres rules and reasons for PvP in real life and there should be rules and reasons for PvP in virtual life.

Originally posted by brenth

love the article.

as a non-pvper (carebear)  I am quite anti PVP  for several reasons   first many of the PVPers ive meet seem to be well... jerks 

immature, wanting to proof how big their manhood is  even if it means killing vastly weak and unarmed players, some just like caussing other players pain.

game developers do tend to seem to create games in isolation  "reinventing the wheel" as it were,, some things need to be the same or similar  almost standardized  like resizeable windows in the UI (suprising how many games havent included this 20th century advancement)

as a "carebear" i tend to follow these pvp rules

1. for the most part I want to be able to choose when I participate in PVP encounters  that measn if im farming or mining  im not wanting to have to worry about being ganked. i dont want the game play GIMPED to try to force me to PVP.

2. I want different  extreems to the PVP areas  some being non-lethal   so that i can "test the waters" or get some expirence fighting PVPers without the all or nothing risk.

3.  I prefer areas or  battle lines or neutral zones  where I know  that PVP occures there. i dont mind if  these areas change or fluxuate like areas of control.

4.  as a casual player  I want to be able to be effective enough to survive long enough to be able to enjoy PVP.  if im gonna travel for 2 hours  and end up dieing in the first 5 seconds  or that  the enemy is so advanced there effectivly immune to anything I do that I wont bother showing up.

I was going to use EVE for my example  since its very hard core PVP  and your effectivly not safe anywhere  and non-PVPers are 2nd class citizens   and they are the ONLY viable scifi MMO operating   you either  tough out a meger existance  or you leave the game,, I have encountered many EVE refugees    I thought STO was gonna make EVE into a ghost town  but its obvious  that STO is not up to the task.

anyone ever make a casual player friendly version of EVE  let me know (though i do hope they do a better job of adding content to their solar systems and planets)

One reason you cannot make games for both PvErs and PvPers.  For eve to cater to you as a gamer it would basically ruin the whole fundamentals of the game.

One of the things I like about eve though is the way they cater to Non Pvpers and Pvpers.  Empire space is nice and you can enjoy the game there a lone.   But you get into 0.0 and that is where the good mining,  production and high ends NPCS and high end paying missions are.  In my opinion they are risking more so they deserve bigger payouts.  Also if you flipped this around the PvP in eve would simply not work since everyone would huddle empire space.

This is opposed to something like darkfall,  where it does not cater to you at all.  Or games like lotro or wow where PvP is a soccer (football for those across the pond)  tournament. 

Originally posted by brenth

as a non-pvper (carebear)  I am quite anti PVP  for several reasons   first many of the PVPers ive meet seem to be well... jerks 

immature, wanting to proof how big their manhood is  even if it means killing vastly weak and unarmed players, some just like caussing other players pain.

Alas, that's my impression of the most vocal and militant members of the PvP community.

Real life is FFA PvP with full looting, you know.  There's a reason why you don't usually get ganked when you're down at the mall.

There are consequences in the real world for being a jerk...or, as we call them in the real world, after they've faced sanctions for being a jerk, a criminal.

Online games, though, are like online fora: no one knows you're a dog.  Anonymity allows for a lot of behaviors that would otherwise be kept in that deep dark place.

The other problem with PvP is that you've got the supreme irony of other maniacal PvPers being your content.  Which means that being a jerk will eventually kill your fun.

I remember in SWG there was this guy who claimed to be a big roleplayer, who was an Imperial, yet he couched his role playing in terms of "I'm going to crush your guild".  The problem is that guilds are a game construct, not something that exists in the world of Star Wars.  What guild or player association a player is in shouldn't make a difference as far as role play is concerned.  So it was obvious that he was working out some RL issues with others online...Darth Sidious could feel his anger, I"m sure.

So this guy was undermining his own play experience by being such a rancorous person...he was pissing off his content, his fellow PvPers.

THAT makes PvP an interesting dynamic in a game.  The fact that you can have your fun as a gankaholic asshat for only a short period of time before your prey leaves.

Which is why FFA PvP isn't much of a long term business model for an MMO.

Originally posted by TJKazmark

Regardless of personal experience with PvP in MMOs, the article was a nice read, and got me thinking.

As someone who rarely dabbles in the PvP area myself, I must admit that I've had a constant interest in it. Why I haven't gotten fully into the arena, however, is because I've not felt viable. In my opinion, (a crude one, since I'm still learning about the intricacies of PvP mechanics) a good sense of PvP is when you can take a fresh character and get onto a battlefield and not be crushed by a max-level character who is fully-geared and targeting characters so far below them they just have to twitch to kill them. I've had a bit of this experience games, WoW, AoC, and DaoC being just a few.

Now, again, I'm pretty new to the PvP world, but is this sector of games reserved for the "elite"? If so, should it? I enjoy competition, and I'm not someone who pitches a fit when he loses, but I also don't desire to spend countless hours gearing up and researching builds just to have a chance of winning a fight. Maybe I'm making too much of an exaggeration.

My point is this: Is there a game, or can one be made, where PvP doesn't feel like a separate enitity in a game; one so entiwined with aspects such as PvE that it moves seamlessly between the two? I think if a solution like this can, or has been, found it would make the experience of a game better. But again, this is just my opinion. I'm very open to hearing what avid PvPers have to say on the topic, their experience and how they adapted to the game playstyle.

Darkfall Online has done an exceptional job of combining PvE and PvP in to one game.  It does not feel detached in the least.     There are no levels in DFO, as it is a skill based game where skills increase upon use of them.   A new player in DFO would have a tough time alone in PvP for sure, but in a guild, with a group, even a newbie can make a difference and end up the winner if they play smart.

Per other comments in this thread, DFO has no stuns or memorize type spells.    PvP and PvE go hand in hand are PvP is the most skill based of any game I've played, except UO, but with some more time, DFO may top that as well.

re Polearm debate on DFO forums, it is pretty funny, but they aren't entirely wrong.   There was a polearm balance done months ago that felt pretty good; but I don't use PA's so no idea if the complaining has merit or not.  I do know that the developer of DFO, AV, plays its own game and makes these decisions based upon their in-game experience, and not just by the level of whining on message boards, which by the way, is the real historical problem with PvP in MMO's.   Developers typically lose control to the suits at the top of the corporate entity they are owned by.   Fortunately, AV doesn't have this problem to contend with.

Re generalizations about the type of folks that love PvP, I can understand where it comes from.   There are some real lunatics that are PvPrs; but they get all the attention.   The majority are mature and rarely even use message boards, so they just aren't as vocal.   Also, PvPrs hardly have a cornerstone on being jerks.   I've seen players use the lack of open PvP to be real asshats in PvE games as well.    It's not about PvE or PvP, but about people and the Internet.   In my guild of 100 on Darkfall, there isn't 1 jerk as we mutually understand the term, among them.

-CC

DF was the first time since UO i have run into the friendly PK.  These are an odd group but they will kill you and loot you but when you go to retrieve your body they will normally hand you back your noob weapon and other gear you need but they don't(which they kept others from ninja looting) and give you a few tips.

Its normally a very good experience.

I am posting way to much in this thread.

Also in regards to PvP and RP.  It is normally the best way to RP.  Non full loot,  ffa rping normally just breaks down into little unconnected drama clubs.  UO FFA PvP  Allow us to make our own rules and stay united as a community.  We would fight each other and not loot,  but loot non RPers and griefers.  Story lines actually had more consistency to them.  Plus it normally drove off the thin skinned RPers who were really good at ruining rp worse then the gankers.

Originally posted by Paks

You know I've always wondered why developers don't make PvPvE games that separate PvP skills/stats/items from PvE ones more often (if ever?).  Sure it'd be more time consuming but would help alleviate problems with balancing for PvP screwing up PvE or vice versa.  In essence the it'd be more time consuming thing would balance itself out because you wouldn't be performing a high wire act trying to not break one or the other.

Eventually - maybe in another five or six years - all the other MMOs will catch up to UO.

I lol'ed, as it were. He talked about forum warriors rushing to the attack in the article and then was promptly swarmed by forum warriors the minute his article went up. It was nice to see people emphasising his point for him.

Originally posted by hayes303

I lol'ed, as it were. He talked about forum warriors rushing to the attack in the article and then was promptly swarmed by forum warriors the minute his article went up. It was nice to see people emphasising his point for him.

He's no spring chicken to the forum fight either.  He is just as much as a forum fighter as the rest of us,  probably more.

To Jennings, Posters, and All.

If you couldnt handle Shadowbanes hardcore system then dont bitch about it, theres a lot of people who will say its among the most original, entertaining MMO's released.

Originally posted by inBOIL

Originally posted by Sabiancym

That was just one big whinefest.

Don't like pvp, don't do it. or don't play the game. It's really that simple.

 

I dislike questing, should I cry about it in every other thread too?

 

dont like pvp,dont´t do it,or don´t play the game called real life.It´s really not that simple

theres rules and reasons for PvP in real life and there should be rules and reasons for PvP in virtual life.

 

lol, I'm trying to read what you typed but its difficult.

He had a point, there's a lot of people who would rather "gank" then "quest" to level up/skill up...but most games don't allow us to do that (DFO and UO I guess in a way)

In the end they just need to make 2 server types always - Hardcore PvP which has no carebear rules AT ALL, full loot, or full bag loot (which means equipment stays) and then of course your classic PvE server with the normal rules.