Originally posted by Valendros

 

---

I won't argue with you there are some aspect in WoW that you can see in LOTRO.

---

WOW is a Camry, LOTRO is an Accord.

You hit it on the head right there ... no need to go any farther. Camry and Accord are cars that are in the same class just as WoW and LORTO are. The use of the word clone is the problem. Saying that the Accord is a clone of a Camry isn't a valid statement.

The part I left out of my last post that I had apart of the Wednesday fiasco was talking about industry standards and why you use them. What all industry does it is sees and idea that someone does and tries to mimic it. Why? Firstly because it works and secondly because when you have Joe MMOer looking to play a different game you want him to have some semblance of familiarity between products. A great example is between FFXI and the other MMOs out there. Where FFXI the default is to move around with the number pad and other MMOs you are using WASD and a mouse. There is an example on the FFXI forums here where I was talking someone through how to move and they were hellbend on using the mouse (which I warned not to). Why? because he was used to it. Do you know how many people tried and left FFXI just because it was too different? I don't have enough fingers to count the number of people who have come up to me and told me they quit FFXI because the spacebar doesn't make your toon jump. ... entirely true can't make shit like that up. I am not suggesting innovation is a bad thing or FFXI was wrong in anyway ... it is just the way of the world.

Long story short you mimic like this to pull people away from the "best of class" choice, give them an experience that makes them forget the original, then put out version 2 of your product and rely on brand loyalty to drive the sales of your second version. Where as if you started with version 2 your sales would not be as good because the concept would be too foreign to the consumer. * IMPORANT REVELATION * This is kinda where SE did shit a little back asswards. They originally put out a product that was too foreign and are now starting to move back towards the mainstream a little bit ... which gets people up and arms and is the initial reason for this thread ... boy how shit goes in circles. * END REVELATION *

It happens everywhere. I mean the keyboard you are typing on was birthed from the typewriter. When they invented computers they didn't feel the need to change the keyboard to anything that isn't resemble a type writer. Why? Because people were used to it. A QWERTY keyboard layout is not the best layout of letters and typing (there are studies out there if you want to find them). We could all increase accuracy and efficiency while typing if we changed the keyboard layout, but we don't because it is familiar.

Did you ever have to explain a computer to a grandparent? A few years back it was hell because it was such a foreign concept (those grandparents have died off and have been replace with slightly more tech savvy ones). You need to keep some familiarity between products or else people get lost. It is kinda like you can only reinvent the wheel so many times.

Quickly on the topic of community: Programmers do not control the community; the players do. You cannot program the game to make people play one way or another. FFXI today could be full of mmo sociopaths like WoW. It just so happens that the those childish prats for the most part stayed away or were forced out because "the game was too hard (boo-fucking-ho)"

To say that FFXI is any % of WoW is wrong and is a problem when talking to people. WoW might be the gold standard in people minds but people need to think outside the tunnel vision sites like this one breed. Take a step back. FFXI is no 30% of WoW. FFXI is 30% of EQ. To really continue the analogy:

MUDs :: Horse
EQ :: Ford Model T
WoW :: Toyota Camry
LORTO :: Honda Accord
EQ2 :: Ford Focus
FFXI :: Dodge Ram

[EDIT: changed FFXI from an F150 to a Ram to have different car makes for the two different companies]

---

We could all increase accuracy and efficiency while typing if we changed the keyboard layout, but we don't because it is familiar.

---

Well, the Dvorak keyboard system is hands down better. I mean the max people can get on QWERTY is ~130 WPM and on Dvorak there's people pushing 210+. I've tried to learn it, and had mixed results... 

Never got quite up to my old typing speed, cause my boss would see that I'm typing slowly, realize I'm trying to learn Dvorak again, and give me more work... damn smart bosses...
 
At any rate, back on topic...

---

Programmers do not control the community; the players do. You cannot program the game to make people play one way or another.

---

Well, while I agree it's not programmers themselves, they're really just code monkeys for the developer. But the crux of the issue is that the developers DO control the community to a very large degree. How could you have played FFXI for almost as long as I have and not know that?
The entire reason behind FFXI's excellent community is the design of the systems. If you design systems that penalize you for grouping, people wont group and you get a crappy community out of it. If you design systems that facilitate, promote, even force grouping and player to player interaction, then you get a thriving economy and community out of it. FFXI is the proof of that. Every system is designed for player to player interaction from the AH, Mob drops, critter placement and respawns, spells & abilities, down to the design of the classes themselves.
That's not to say they got it perfect, there's many things that would have helped even more, and they should have done... Maybe this requires a new topic...

It does turn my stomach a bit to respond to something using WOW as a comparison because I think it is the Wal-Mart of MMOs, but you cannot deny the fact that it is competition.

In my experience I started playing console and gradually upgraded to PC.  I got hooked on MMOs from playing FFXI on my PS2, and then when I got my computer, I got another copy for my PC.   I immediately had to get a controller for my PC as well because the keyboard controls were complicated for me.

I soon grew tired of FFXI and moved onto other MMOs.  No, not WoW.  I refused to play WoW because I'm one of those people that like to try things no one else usually does.  I got used to the gameplay of the PC using WASD for movement and Spacebar for jump,  number keys for the main hotbar, etc etc.  

I was really itching for something like FFXI the whole time because I really missed the loads of content and unique teamwork-type gameplay.  So I went back to FFXI . I immediately was frustrated with the keyboard controls and turned off by the out-dated graphics.  Also my boyfriend is an avid PC Gamer and plays games with me often.  He refused to even try playing FFXI with me due to the lack of intuitiveness of the GUI and controls compared to other PC Games.

Now I say other PC Games which do include A LOT of MMOs, but even single-player games on the PC have similar keyboard mechanics.

I really hope this new one does not revolve around the controller.  I am not completely against controllers, but they really need to make it easy for both.

Originally posted by Jenadara

It does turn my stomach a bit to respond to something using WOW as a comparison because I think it is the Wal-Mart of MMOs, but you cannot deny the fact that it is competition.

In my experience I started playing console and gradually upgraded to PC.  I got hooked on MMOs from playing FFXI on my PS2, and then when I got my computer, I got another copy for my PC.   I immediately had to get a controller for my PC as well because the keyboard controls were complicated for me.

I soon grew tired of FFXI and moved onto other MMOs.  No, not WoW.  I refused to play WoW because I'm one of those people that like to try things no one else usually does.  I got used to the gameplay of the PC using WASD for movement and Spacebar for jump,  number keys for the main hotbar, etc etc.  

I was really itching for something like FFXI the whole time because I really missed the loads of content and unique teamwork-type gameplay.  So I went back to FFXI . I immediately was frustrated with the keyboard controls and turned off by the out-dated graphics.  Also my boyfriend is an avid PC Gamer and plays games with me often.  He refused to even try playing FFXI with me due to the lack of intuitiveness of the GUI and controls compared to other PC Games.

Now I say other PC Games which do include A LOT of MMOs, but even single-player games on the PC have similar keyboard mechanics.

I really hope this new one does not revolve around the controller.  I am not completely against controllers, but they really need to make it easy for both.

People like to use what they previously used before which is why people think the control for the PC version of FFXI are so terrible. People grew up on the WASD and mouse and that is what they will use and refuse to use anything else. Try now a days to play and FPS where your shoot and/or aim buttons are not on the triggers or bumpers of your controller. No one would play because the controls would be to foreign (and I'd personally think would be a step back in development of the genre).

But to answer your fears... yes FFXIV will use a controller. Developed for the PC and PS3 ... PS3 has no native mouse or keyboard. The ideas of a console would be have all parts of the games have a common thread. Hardware included.

If they wanted to have keyboard and mouse only on FFXIV they would have to include the peripherals with the core game (FFXI did this with the PS2 HDD). It raises the price point and wouldn't be the best marketing strategy because it would make the PS3 version of the game more expensive than the PC version. You could easily spend $30 outside the price of the game for a keyboard and mouse for your PS3 (i did it ... rocketfish keyboard/mouse combo off ebay ... works with PS3/360/PC ... I'd recommend).

Honestly what they best course of action would be would have a Standard version of FFXIV where you get the core game and a Limited edition or some kind in which you also get a limited edition of the PS3 chat pad which could be used for multiple game.

Problem being is there are no function keys of the chat pad ... but then again they could use action bars and not a macro menu in which case meh ....

Anywho the moral of the story is ... Go give WoW a shot. It isn't a bad game, the community makes it bad. Don't stop yourself from playing a game you might like just because everyone like it

Personally I'd like the idea of being about to jump in an out of the game quickly. As FFXI is right now you honestly can't jump on for a half hour if that is all you have time for (and I think they can lose player base with that fact). Truly you need 2-3 hours minimum you can sit down and play FFXI for a full filling experience. I also hate the fact that you need to be married to the game in order to play endgame. There have been linkshell I have been kicked out of because I wasn't camping a king at noon or at 4 am. Not very cool when you consider I work.

Which is exactly why it should be aimed at normal players, and not jobless drop outs who live in their parents basement.

Originally posted by Ashanor

Personally I'd like the idea of being about to jump in an out of the game quickly. As FFXI is right now you honestly can't jump on for a half hour if that is all you have time for (and I think they can lose player base with that fact). Truly you need 2-3 hours minimum you can sit down and play FFXI for a full filling experience. I also hate the fact that you need to be married to the game in order to play endgame. There have been linkshell I have been kicked out of because I wasn't camping a king at noon or at 4 am. Not very cool when you consider I work.

 

Which is exactly why it should be aimed at normal players, and not jobless drop outs who live in their parents basement.

Its a diffrent genre for a diffrent type of player. before WoW like games EVERYTHING was like ff11 where you needed to set aside a good chunk of time to play it. I work and play FFXI (usualy play for a handful of hours at night and alot more on weekends wich is perfectly fine. Though nowadays you can actually play for 30 mins and get somthing done (FoV made solo or small group grinding much easyer)

I agree some endgame is built for the hardcore, but not as much as you say, hell most of it you just join a shell that does a specific event a couple days of the week. Limbus,Dynamis,Enherjar(sp?),Sky,Sea,ZNMs.....actually most everything execpt for camping HNMs and Kings dont require random and that large of time slots, a couple hours 2-3 time a week works perfect for all the others.  Yes you basicly have to have it scheduled but we all have can do it, a life or not.

If you really want a game you can play for a half hour a couple times a week and do everything solo well there are plenty of those out and about since WoWs success. or you can just play a single player RPG (seems like thats the better idea for most people who want those things out of an MMO) Honestly if you have such minmal time you really shouldnt be playing MMO's in the first place.

 38% yes?! Omg let final fantasy be final fantasy please. Final Fantasy has always been about having a story with a group of players. Don`t make FFXIV into yet another lame massive single player. Guh! When casual gamers are tired of doing casual things they would want a hardcore game. Please FFXIV, be that hardcore game!

I personal prefer to have a mix of both casual and hardcore content. That way the casual players and hardcore players are happy. It'll also help Square Enix, cause then the player base will be far larger. The casuals will be happy they have content they can access when they have time, and the hardcores will have content to keep them into the game. What seemed to happen to WoW is casuals started complaining and epics are practically being handed out. I really don't want SE going that route.

Hardcore FTW wow = fail for real gamers

Originally posted by ic0n67

Anywho the moral of the story is ... Go give WoW a shot. It isn't a bad game, the community makes it bad. Don't stop yourself from playing a game you might like just because everyone like it

I like how you put this at the end so I had to read through all the boring technical crap.  LOL.  You should have put this in the beginning so I didn't have to waste my time. :P

Thanks but no thanks.

If they want the PC crowd to move away from huge competition like WoW, they need to make it intuitive for PC Players.