Like I said previously... Apples vs Oranges...

Your statements do certainly prove my point on why this IP should be sandbox based though.. You want true exploration, depth, etc based on the ST universe if I'm not mistaken. It is not going to happen based on what I've seen so far in regard to this game.

It is/was totally do-able and every audience could have been satiated (hence why I said unlimited upside for the IP). I'll still try the game out given the point I made previously, but I'm going to come out and say it will have a 6 mos life based on it's model. STO could have had so much more depth & immersion but from what I've read it's a cut & paste job aimed at grabbing mass initial box sales.

I would loved to have seen what a company like CCP (they are the flag bearer for a good MMO) could have done with this genre... oh well.

Zoned PvP for STO is only logical and right type of PVP the game can use.
It fits the IP perfectly.

Unrestricted open PVP is for kiddies who can't think one step ahead and those can go and play pos like Darkfail or MO, once and if it is going to be released.

As for STO and sandbox, any IP can make great sandbox so such argumenting is just silly...

Originally posted by Kramerica

Like I said previously... Apples vs Oranges...

Your statements do certainly prove my point on why this IP should be sandbox based though.. You want true exploration, depth, etc based on the ST universe if I'm not mistaken. It is not going to happen based on what I've seen so far in regard to this game.

It is/was totally do-able and every audience could have been satiated (hence why I said unlimited upside for the IP). I'll still try the game out given the point I made previously, but I'm going to come out and say it will have a 6 mos life based on it's model. STO could have had so much more depth & immersion but from what I've read it's a cut & paste job aimed at grabbing mass initial box sales.

I would loved to have seen what a company like CCP (they are the flag bearer for a good MMO) could have done with this genre... oh well.

No it doesn't. The Star Trek series is based on exploration, a system they are already developing that will see players going into procedurally generated planets and star systems, to be the first to explore. 

What elements from a sandbox MMO, specifically, are you referring to that you'd want to see in Star Trek Online. Just saying "it should be a sandbox" says nothing.

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Originally posted by Zorndorf
Real competitive PvP players like to have balance and a setting.

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Originally posted by Omali

Originally posted by Kramerica

Like I said previously... Apples vs Oranges...

Your statements do certainly prove my point on why this IP should be sandbox based though.. You want true exploration, depth, etc based on the ST universe if I'm not mistaken. It is not going to happen based on what I've seen so far in regard to this game.

It is/was totally do-able and every audience could have been satiated (hence why I said unlimited upside for the IP). I'll still try the game out given the point I made previously, but I'm going to come out and say it will have a 6 mos life based on it's model. STO could have had so much more depth & immersion but from what I've read it's a cut & paste job aimed at grabbing mass initial box sales.

I would loved to have seen what a company like CCP (they are the flag bearer for a good MMO) could have done with this genre... oh well.

No it doesn't. The Star Trek series is based on exploration, a system they are already developing that will see players going into procedurally generated planets and star systems, to be the first to explore. 

 

The above is right. In storytelling, conflict is a tool you use to make a point. That does not mean the story you're telling is "about" conflict.

If Star Trek is about anything, it's about the thrill and challenge of always pushing the frontier and seeking the yet unknown. Not surprisingly, this is true both physically, philosophically and ethically. The wider range of culture humanity meets, the wider perspective it has to adapt, because new ground necessitates new ways of looking at things. This in a way is "exploration done right" and if anything, it represents how we wished the West had gone about  exploring the rest of the world instead of the bloody history of colonization it resulted in. So in a way, in Star Trek (I'm just talking about TOS here) wars mostly find their meaning in the ways you can avoid them.

{mod edit}

Please stay on topic. 

Originally posted by Kramerica

From what I understand from reading it looks like zoned PvP only? If so then, why? The Star Trek franchise is about varying civilizations pitted against one another, why this game is not open RvR is beyond me.

I hope I'm wrong but this game looks like a gigantic PvE festival in the making. If so then that is a shame because the IP has unlimited upside that will not be utilized.

Well one would think the same about Lord of the Rings MMORPG but it also turned out to be PvE crapfest with one zone for "playing" PvP called monsterplay.

And Cryptic has shown with their previous games that they are not very good at creating PvP games and as such PvP in STO will most likely be very limited, just as CoX and Champions Online. Hard to hear I know, but everything points to that.

Now if Mythic got their hands of the Star Trek MMORPG I would expect some nice RvR experience. But Cryptic? No. It will be 99% PvE .

For all of you tree-hugging, peace lovers who says wars does not "fit" into the Star Trek lore. Bullshit I say to that. In the series there have been inumerous wars or conflicts between the different factions. Klingon vs Feds, Romulans vs Feds, Romulans vs Klingons, Dominion vs Feds, Borg vs Everyone else.

Star Trek has been ripe with war and conflicts (heck Klingons are all about war and conflict and so are Borg and to some extent  Romulans (until they become sissified by their planet blowing up)). It has contained other fluff stuff as well, such as exploration, diplomacy and such but what would exploration and, specially, diplomacy be without war and conflict? Boring as hell I would say.

And, in this game, if I remember correctly the Klingons have broken the peace treaty with Feds and are close to an all out war. So the setting is definetely there, unfourtanetely the devs in control are not capable of creating a rich PvP experience so what we most likely will get is some LOTRO monster play PvP (with no pupose or far reaching goals) and/or instanced scenario type PvP (again with no purpose).

My above post was perfectly on topic because the context is clear, but perhaps I should elaborate for the those who need more clarity:

Because Star Trek is about exploration, an open world, all-out PVP system is the one wrong way of making a Star Trek MMO. If you give players the chance to attack each other anywhere, you can bet enough of them will to turn the game into what will practically be a war-riven universe. It will not look like what Star Trek is for most of the time. In Star Trek, combat is a last resort and you cannot achieve that balance on an open RVR MMO.

I'm not arguing that zoned PVP is better or more fun than ORVR, but that if you're trying to be loyal to the IP, zoned is the way to go.

EDIT: And Yamota, nobody's denying that there is conflict, just that the heart of the series is not that. There are enough books, papers and interviews on this if you want to explore further. But I guess people see what they want to see.

Originally posted by Nikopol

My above post was perfectly on topic because the context is clear, but perhaps I should elaborate for the those who need more clarity:

Because Star Trek is about exploration, an open world, all-out PVP system is the one wrong way of making a Star Trek MMO. If you give players the chance to attack each other anywhere, you can bet enough of them will to turn the game into what will practically be a war-riven universe. It will not look like what Star Trek is for most of the time. In Star Trek, combat is a last resort and you cannot achieve that balance on an open RVR MMO.

I'm not arguing that zoned PVP is better or more fun than ORVR, but that if you're trying to be loyal to the IP, zoned is the way to go.
 

Wrong. For the FEDERATION war is the last resort. For the Klingons and Romulans war and conflict is the way to go as it is built in their very culture to be warrior like (Klingons) and backstabbing and vindictive (Romulans). Also Borg are in war with almost all other species and so was the Dominion (before they were defeated). And the Ferengi goes to war if it is in their own interest.

So your thinking applies ONLY to the Feds. Almost all other races are confrontational by nature. Also in those books and litterature you mention. Was the Dominion war restricted to certain zones? The Borg conflict? The early Klingon conflicts? No, they were all out wars and the Borg even managed to launch an assault on Earth.

If war and conflict was not in the ST IP it would not be 1/10th the large as it is. Why? Because wars, in fiction not RL, are FUN and EXCITING. Watching a bunch of fruitcakes talk about their "emotions" is not.

I am not saying that the conflicts you speak of have not happened, but just that the ratio of battle scenes to other scenes will be lopsided to how the ratio of battle turn out in open RVR games. In an open RVR game, the overwhelming content is battle itself. So show me that throughout Star Trek, the overwhelming content is battle itself.

This is how I'm going to turn out really wrong: Gauge how much time those battles and wars take up in the whole of the Star Trek series, and let's see how that measures in comparison to the battle-free time. This will show us how battle-heavy Star Trek series are. Start with the original series. Count the scenes. If you come up with a truly battle-heavy ratio, I will stand corrected. And you'd have done good even if you turn out to be wrong: We could all use those numbers somewhere.

{mod edit}

If it's being made by cryptic who made City of Heroes/Villains and Champions Online then the game will be developed towards pve with the pvp tacked on afterwards as an after thought. Also you can be sure there will be instances and zones and story based missions with cut scenes will be the  bread and butter of the game. You can also be pretty sure that after you level up to max there will be nothing to do until they release an expansion.

If you like that kind of thing then have fun, it's not for me though despite how appealing playing an MMO with the Star Trek IP is. If it had been a huge non instanced world with open world pvp and trading as a focus then it would have been great. It's a waste of a good IP... You could have definately made open world pvp a focus of the game, just set the timeline in some year that hasn't already been covered in the series when war has broken out between different alliances and there you have you justification.

Well combat in the alpha and beta quadrants was in the show usually limited or concentrated in the 'neutral zone'. I think its being rather true to the series, but we'll have to see. I can't possibly fathom how people are already making assumptions yet the game hasn't even hit the shelves.

Im adopting a wait a see approach, i'll be happily there to bash the game if it lacks in those areas, but it should get the following from the fans they need to push the game forward. With the fans support, issues like PvP and PvE will evolve into what they want. At least this is what i think. I just refuse to knock a company/game before they've finished the thing. It's like looking at an unfinished drawing and saying 'I dont like it, it lacks colour', before the artist has even finished shading.

In summary zoned PvP is perfectly believable. We also dont know how many systems are in this 'zone'. So it could be quite interesting. We won't even know how that'll play until at least open beta in january. Need the full numbers of players contesting the area to truly get a feel for what the experience will be like..

I also refuse to accept Champions Online as an excuse for this game to fail. For starter's theres starship flight and combat. It's too different to compare.
 

Originally posted by Nikopol

I am not saying that the conflicts you speak of have not happened, but just that the ratio of battle scenes to other scenes will be lopsided to how the ratio of battle turn out in open RVR games. In an open RVR game, the overwhelming content is battle itself. So show me that throughout Star Trek, the overwhelming content is battle itself.

This is how I'm going to turn out really wrong: Gauge how much time those battles and wars take up in the whole of the Star Trek series, and let's see how that measures in comparison to the battle-free time. This will show us how battle-heavy Star Trek series are. Start with the original series. Count the scenes. If you come up with a truly battle-heavy ratio, I will stand corrected. And you'd have done good even if you turn out to be wrong: We could all use those numbers somewhere.

{mod edit}

 

Just because the episodes dont have many minutes of combat compared to other things does not mean that an MMORPG based on Star Trek IP should not have much PvP.

You are drawing your own conclusions, probably because you dont like RvR PvP, that because of that then there should be no RvR PvP. Which is ridicilous because then it should not have much PvE combat either and the game should be all about exploring, getting in touch with your feelings and all that fluff crap that has slowly infested the IP. The original series had much more combat scenes than the more recent ones.

In any case, we see on the videos released, that STO is indeed combat based. So PvE combat or PvP combat is up to the devs to decide what to focus on. But to say that there shouldnt be much combat in a computer game because the IP did not have so much combat is just plain bad bussiness. People play games to have fun (which includes alot of space combat), they dont play games to watch a Star Trek episode. In particulary not an MMORPG.

But when all is said is done, IF the game has alot of PvE combat then there is no reason why it should not have alot of PvP combat. The only difference is that in one case you are fighting a Klingon controlled by an AI script, where as in the other the Klingon is controlled by a person.

Originally posted by Maverz290  

I also refuse to accept Champions Online as an excuse for this game to fail. For starter's theres starship flight and combat. It's too different to compare.
 

The game types are very different but Cryptic is known for making casual, instanced games with little to no end game. That is not related to what type of MMORPG it is, that is just the capability of the company.

I will be very happy if Cryptic breaks that pattern but I strongly doubt it. Based on the interviews released the game will be mostly about instanced PvE missions which seem to be quite soloable. Very much like Champions Online.

Nothing has been shown that they are capabale, or willing, to create a full fledged Star Trek universe. Rather it seems like they want to make a game of the episodes of Star Trek. I.e. one episode is an instanced mission and then they will create X number of missions but beside that, it looks thin.

Forget about any overreaching goals or conflicts between Klingons and Federation or massive battles (PvE or PvP). That is just not gonna happen. The game will be an instanced PvE crapfest like Champions Online.

Originally posted by Yamota 

You are drawing your own conclusions, probably because you dont like RvR PvP, that because of that then there should be no RvR PvP. Which is ridicilous because then it should not have much PvE combat either and the game should be all about exploring, getting in touch with your feelings and all that fluff crap that has slowly infested the IP. The original series had much more combat scenes than the more recent ones.

That I don't like RVR PVP is inaccurate speculation. Even more than RVR I like free for all PVP - the less limits on PVP the better for me. Of course, I'd not enjoy a purely PVP game for long, I would want to see more breadth in gameplay. That's why EVE Online has been my favorite MMO for the last few years.

So I was not talking in terms of my own gaming preferences, believe it or not. I was just talking about what I saw as the heart of Star Trek. Yes, exploring, ideas, ethics, human themes and even the technology itself are vital to Star Trek (TOS, too). And interestingly, all of that can be translated into MMO gameplay that is, if you must, non-combat oriented. They already have the Genesis system in place for exploration; and a good part of the others can be achieved by good storytelling on the "episodes" (missions) they're talking about. So add a good crafting system, and I'd say we're set to go. :)

so what then

In response to those who believe ST is primarily about war and conflict....

"We believed that the often ridiculed mass audience is sick of this world's petty
nationalism and all it's old ways and old hatreds, and that people are not only willing
but anxious to think beyond most petty beliefs that have for so long kept mankind divided.
So you see that the formula, the magic ingredient that many people keep seeking and many of
them keep missing is really not in Star Trek. It is in the audience. There is an
intelligent life form out on the other side of that television too.

The whole show was an attempt to say that humanity will reach maturity and
wisdom on the day that it begins not just to tolerate, but to take a special delight in
differences in ideas and differences in life forms.

For Star Trek proofs, as faulty as individual episodes could
be, is that the much-maligned common man and common woman has an
enormous hunger for brotherhood. They are ready for the 23rd century now, and
they are light-years ahead of their petty governments and their visionless leaders."

The Great Bird of the Galaxy would be rolling in his grave if there was unrestricted PvP in STO. 

We can't have that, can we?