Originally posted by Gameloading

Originally posted by Bainwalker

Originally posted by rashhero

How dare companies try and make money, especially in todays economy! Free to play should be just that! Not forced into buying things in an item mall!

In all seriousness, if your poor, get a job. If you've got a job and are still poor, I think you need to logoff and examine your lives. Even YOU have the right to make money. This whole liberal QQ fest of wanting something for nothing is downright pathetic.

 

I don't want something for nothing, I want game developers to take a look at themselves and change the mindset there current is with the F2P market, which honestly I don't play any of them.  The whole concept of a F2P MMO was and should have never changed from a method for upstart devs to get their feet on the ground, it should never be a way to make any profit. 

How many so called devs trying to get their feet on the ground with f2p have actually created a game that is still around, or is even somewhat entertaining to play?

Ofcourse it should be a way to make profit. Why should they have to deliver entertainment without getting paid for it?

Our views are vastly different, I look at the creation of a F2P MMO as a learning experience for the developers, their goal shouldn't be to make money but to make a game everyone enjoys.   With this mindset when they do finally make a P2P game hopefully this mindset won't change.  Making a game purely because you WANT to and ENJOY doing so is their reward, and it's a bonus of people actually play and enjoy it. 

A perfect example is Runescape, it was completely free until the game became viable enough to merit a P2P version. I personally stopped liking the game after grade 10 or so... that was years ago.  Either way the developers made a solid game, why?  Because they enjoyed it and looked at it not from a business angle but from a hobby angle. 

Item shops in a F2P game, fine, whatever, they have to make money somehow.

Itemshops in a P2P game? Sorry but that's just greedy double dipping no matter how you try to justify it. Pick one of the other, not both.

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Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

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Originally posted by Leethe

Until game budgets and revenue go back to the levels that they were at 7-10 years ago, I think MTs are here to stay. Remember that global financial meltdown? That money just isn't as easy to come by as it used to be.

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Unbelievable. Cash shops in P2P MMOs aren't a case of need, but greed.
What kind of pathetic excuse would be used if that one hadn't been provided?

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Greed it may be and pathetic it may be. I won't disagree with you on that. Thing is, it seems to me that a business can have no sense of greed. When is enough enough? It can never be enough. Growth is expected and that means finding new ways to get cash. To us it's greed because it is a temptation to extend ourselves beyond our means. To them greed is offering enough choices to the market without scaring it away. We can only vote in the currency they understand which is, of course, cash. I haven't experienced any degrade of game play in P2P MMOs that have goods for sale. As long as it remains optional I can keep the temptation at bay but being tempted and being compelled are two different things to me. If I feel compelled to buy, I leave.

Until such a time when players, those that actually play the games, decide that RMTs are not welcomed into their game of choice and can affect the companies that own them take notice at how much they'll lose if they continue...there's no point in complaining. It is the way things are because of the money they make. Simple as that.

If a company started losing players over their item shop, and the income they make from that shop cannot make up for the loss..do you really think they'd keep it in hopes of making more income from it? I seriously doubt it.

I understand many of you hate RMTs, but unless it becomes the majority of gamer's pov and willing to quit a game over it, they'll continue if it makes them money. All the arguments in the world won't change their minds if they see increase profits each quarter.

Facts of Life I'm afraid.

Originally posted by whisperwynd

Until such a time when players, those that actually play the games, decide that RMTs are not welcomed into their game of choice and can affect the companies that own them take notice at how much they'll lose if they continue...there's no point in complaining. It is the way things are because of the money they make. Simple as that.

If a company started losing players over their item shop, and the income they make from that shop cannot make up for the loss..do you really think they'd keep it in hopes of making more income from it? I seriously doubt it.

I understand many of you hate RMTs, but unless it becomes the majority of gamer's pov and willing to quit a game over it, they'll continue if it makes them money. All the arguments in the world won't change their minds if they see increase profits each quarter.

Facts of Life I'm afraid.

Na, they'd still try them and try them whether we quit or not. Using PC gamers to figure out how to make money from console MMO's. Not really what people were expecting for their subscription fee.

Originally posted by FikusOfAhazi

 

Na, they'd still try them and try them whether we quit or not. Using PC gamers to figure out how to make money from console MMO's. Not really what people were expecting for their subscription fee.

Maybe, but i doubt they'd keep it up at a loss. Shareholders notwithstanding and such. Haven't seen any remove them for lack of revenue-making so far.

Might be that enough is made from these transactions to counter those dissatisfied and gone.

Originally posted by rashhero

How dare companies try and make money, especially in todays economy! Free to play should be just that! Not forced into buying things in an item mall!

In all seriousness, if your poor, get a job. If you've got a job and are still poor, I think you need to logoff and examine your lives. Even YOU have the right to make money. This whole liberal QQ fest of wanting something for nothing is downright pathetic.

that is the single most simple-minded reply i've seen in this forum yet, and that's saying a whole lot.
the internet is such a great place for people such as these to express their opinions without getting physically laughed at.

Originally posted by TheHatter

Originally posted by bloodaxes

Originally posted by TheHatter

The only Western F2P game I can think of that's even semi successful is DDO. They did a really good job from what I saw on the F2P model and it fits the game, but it failed as a P2P. There is also Dungeon Runners, but that was pure fail.

Other than that, F2P with item shops work in Asian countries. Most of the F2P games are just language ports and the developers don't want to put the extra effort into making them P2P games. Aion is an exception, it's F2P in the East and P2P in the west. WoW is the same. It's P2P in the West, F2P in the East.

F2P won't ever work in western games, imho. There will always been the desire for P2P.

Aion is pay per hour in east not free

 

Ouch!

I thought it was F2P like all the others. Kinda the same principle though, it's geared towards Cyber Cafe users.

for some people it would actually be cheaper than the 15 a month, think i paid $10 for 100 hours for Aion on the chinese servers and with work/RL stuff my time lasted me like 2 months.

but to the OP item shops are needed in F2P games thats how they make money. but item shops in a P2P game is a plain greedy money grab double dipping their customers. i won't play a game that charges me a monthly fee and on top of that charge me for ANY extra ingame items. they can charge extra for things like server transfers,name changes and stuff like that but they can get bent if they try to get more money out of me idc if they call them "fluff" or not it should be included in the $15 a month.
 

You may not like it but that doesn't mean it shouldn't exist.  If there's a market for it, then it don't hurt you a darn bit to cater to that market.  Just go find your game and quit worrying about the way that others like their games.  Once developers are actually able to create top quality mmos to compete with wow, f2ps will be the last thing on your mind.  

Something tells me your post is really a rant against rmt veiled with some cock and bull story about pride of game development, but obviously that's only my assumption.

Totally agree, but they will grow before they die out. We are currently under an assault from F2P games philosophy, based on the mistaken idea that F2P games are doing great financially. MMO’s exist in a corporate world where no one tells a competitor how much money they are making, but the illusion that all F2P games are doing well is being perpetuated by those with a self interest to do so.
A fusion like in DDO is possible but I am not sure that long term it will work, bottom line, we are safer without cash shops. Even ‘good’ cash shop games go bad, PW and Atlantica Online(?) are the two big titles that this most recently occurred to. You invest a huge amount of time in a game that seems to have a decent cash shop and then it changes in a pay-to-level cash shop. Your only safe option is not to join games with a cash shop.

The sheer amount of ignorance in this thread would be amazing if one wasn't used to listening to little kids on the internet QQing about shit they don't know about. Doesn't sound like there's even one econ major between the dozen of you fools here.

Giantsquid put it quite aptly. Also, just because a lot of companies are Doing It Wrong (i.e. abusing the concept by selling OP stuff or ignoring the balance between people who don't buy ingame items and those who do) doesn't invalidate the whole concept.

You guys act like playing an MMO is like a fucking marriage - pick one and then stick with it through thick and thin, defending it even when it does things wrong (fanboy). Invariably you feel like you have to piss all over other games clamoring for your attention. After all, you can't afford to sub 4-5 games at the same time can you? So obviously your choice must be right... right?

Pffft.

With f2p you're free to pick and choose, or heck even play multiple games at the same time. Or not play them, when the mood strikes. You can have like 10 games going on, this week you'd maybe play games 1,2,5 then next week you'd play 3 and 9, then maybe grind on game 4 for a whole month.

With subscriptions you're pretty much fucked. Not only have you already paid IN ADVANCE for an entire month's worth of play, if you don't play then you feel like you wasted your money. Not to mention things happen IRL which can prevent you from playing for a while. "Oh man I had finals this month, I have to study", "I really need to get this report done, it's a hundred-thou account", or crap like that.

But hey, who cares, it's daddy's credit card right?

I would'nt mind a game that had both P2P with item shop too. I would gladly pay for certain items ingame.

 I'll have to agree with the above poster despite how crudely it was worded (referring to Trucidation's post). The idealism is just amazing and sorry if some people here aren't used to the idea of capitalism yet. Hard to claim things shouldn't be this way or that way when you aren't even the ones making the decision, yet you are the ones that are on the other side of the gun. Its sad to see how more and more people seem to just want something for nothing. Sorry if you think that Free to Play games shouldn't have a store for the sake of the genre and MMORPG's around the world, I'll believe there might be some (particularly the ones that work hard on the games) who would like to be compensated a little for their hard work and much of their time devoted to their game, but who cares about those people right because its all about you isn't it, even the game is free? -_- 

To me, the Item Shops are more a blessing than a curse because hey, now there's another model to accrue revenue and more and more companies are considering using a F2P model with an Item Shop rather than just pigeon-holing the whole genre into just subscriptions which would just be awful IMO since there are games out there that probably don't deserve the $15 per month. This also broadens the whole industry into catering to more than just people willing to fork over the residual revenue over to the gaming companies without too much question. 

Again, this isn't JUST about you guys the customers (albeit customers are very important for any business), but the people working on the game have families to feed too and for some, this is a career, not a random hobby they come home to everyday and not because they love being taken advantage of. If you think companies with item shops are just in it for the money and nothing can convince you otherwise, then finally welcome to the real world, this isn't no MMORPG, vote with your wallets because that'll determine whether or not these games will continue with utilizing such things -_-

Just my 2 cents. Item malls are created to make money yes. But I believe it´s done instead of raising the monthly cost. Monthly fees has been the same for a long time and i´m thinking a higher monthly fee would push more people back then an item mall.

If you HAD to choose would you go for an item mall or an extra 5$ a month?

Originally posted by Trucidation

The sheer amount of ignorance in this thread would be amazing if one wasn't used to listening to little kids on the internet QQing about shit they don't know about. Doesn't sound like there's even one econ major between the dozen of you fools here.

Giantsquid put it quite aptly. Also, just because a lot of companies are Doing It Wrong (i.e. abusing the concept by selling OP stuff or ignoring the balance between people who don't buy ingame items and those who do) doesn't invalidate the whole concept.

You guys act like playing an MMO is like a fucking marriage - pick one and then stick with it through thick and thin, defending it even when it does things wrong (fanboy). Invariably you feel like you have to piss all over other games clamoring for your attention. After all, you can't afford to sub 4-5 games at the same time can you? So obviously your choice must be right... right?

Pffft.

With f2p you're free to pick and choose, or heck even play multiple games at the same time. Or not play them, when the mood strikes. You can have like 10 games going on, this week you'd maybe play games 1,2,5 then next week you'd play 3 and 9, then maybe grind on game 4 for a whole month.

With subscriptions you're pretty much fucked. Not only have you already paid IN ADVANCE for an entire month's worth of play, if you don't play then you feel like you wasted your money. Not to mention things happen IRL which can prevent you from playing for a while. "Oh man I had finals this month, I have to study", "I really need to get this report done, it's a hundred-thou account", or crap like that.

But hey, who cares, it's daddy's credit card right?

I like the cut of your jib, mister.

What I find interesting is that most people here find speed/xp enhancing items are a scam, vanity items stupid, but see no error in nickel and diming for content drops in mini-expansion form. This only proves that the modern consumer just needs to be fed a line he hasn't seen through yet... maybe even someday there won't be an industry anymore because people are too prudent about their choice in games, to the point where everything demands a free trial and prolific speed of content addition to meet their grind-speed.

Originally posted by Bainwalker

Originally posted by Gameloading

Originally posted by Bainwalker

Originally posted by rashhero

How dare companies try and make money, especially in todays economy! Free to play should be just that! Not forced into buying things in an item mall!

In all seriousness, if your poor, get a job. If you've got a job and are still poor, I think you need to logoff and examine your lives. Even YOU have the right to make money. This whole liberal QQ fest of wanting something for nothing is downright pathetic.

 

I don't want something for nothing, I want game developers to take a look at themselves and change the mindset there current is with the F2P market, which honestly I don't play any of them.  The whole concept of a F2P MMO was and should have never changed from a method for upstart devs to get their feet on the ground, it should never be a way to make any profit. 

How many so called devs trying to get their feet on the ground with f2p have actually created a game that is still around, or is even somewhat entertaining to play?

Ofcourse it should be a way to make profit. Why should they have to deliver entertainment without getting paid for it?

 

Our views are vastly different, I look at the creation of a F2P MMO as a learning experience for the developers, their goal shouldn't be to make money but to make a game everyone enjoys.   With this mindset when they do finally make a P2P game hopefully this mindset won't change.  Making a game purely because you WANT to and ENJOY doing so is their reward, and it's a bonus of people actually play and enjoy it. 

 

A perfect example is Runescape, it was completely free until the game became viable enough to merit a P2P version. I personally stopped liking the game after grade 10 or so... that was years ago.  Either way the developers made a solid game, why?  Because they enjoyed it and looked at it not from a business angle but from a hobby angle. 

That's because I look at it from a realistic perspective.

MMORPGS are big project that cost a lot of money.There is absolutely no reason why they should not make profit off their work.
You can't make a game like Runes of Magic or Maple Story with 2 room mates in your spare time.  On top of that, running an mmorpg costs a lot of money.

Runescape is a very poor example. The only reason it's still popular is because it's a browser game and people who simply don't know of any better free to play games play it. There are loads of item shop games that completely dwarf Runescape from a quality perspective.

You demand developers provide free entertainment and are not allowed to make profitable item shop games without actually providing any real argument as to why.

I also find it funny some people still think Item shop models aren't financially successful. Guess what: They are a huge success. Just because you don't like them doesn't mean they aren't doing great. There is a good reason why they pop up all the time.

Item shops will always be popular. I"m sure there will be an endless stream of item shop games.

I don't like item shop games, and I don't play them, but if other people like to play them that's fine.

Bottom line, I don't think item shop games are fun. If you think they are fun, then shop to your hearts content.

I'll stick with P2P games, I think those are more fun.

14.95 is cheap to pay one time a month, and then forget about money for the rest of the game.

Someone posted, but with an item shop what if you don't play that month? Then you dont' lose any money!

If i'm not playing the game for a whole month, it's time to cancel my sub. I can always resub later, but chances are I will not. I'm not going to play a game like an MMORPG for a week here and there, not play for a couple of months, play for a couple of weeks, etc.

I'm either going to play it at least a few hours a week, or I'm done with it.

I find this thread, and all the "omg, companies are greedy !" thing.. incredible. It's almost if some players _demand_ that developers make games for fun only, and if they can feed their family, well that's good luck, a nice superflous extra !

Meanwhile, I wonder how many of them are posting on other forums about shops such as Walmarts making outrageous margins on food.. and the 1001 other companies that they pay every day without questions asked..

You. Need. To. Revise. Your. Priorities.

Originally posted by demarc01

As a general rule I dislike F2P games because they are all based around item shops it seems. Now I know this is a payment model and one that is very popular in the Eastern market and thats all well and good.

Its not an evil model of payment and you infact experiance it all the time. Goto eat out and you'll see it. Want a starter? Side with your meal? A beer too? All these are the "extras" that you dont actually need to enjoy the meal .. they are just optional extra's. (Bad example I'm sure people will rip appart but it serves my purpose of pointing out there are optional extra's everywhere)

Personally I dont Item shops because I like the "Full experiance" up front and item shops tend to be incremental.

DDO is an exception that I really DO like. It does have a Free part .. it has an item shop and it has a full subscription. I dont really care for the game but the payment model is great IMO because it prompts choice for the player. More choice is always a good thing. The current trend seems to be a sub + Item shop model which is hate with a passion. EQ2 does it, Champions Online does it and I see WoW heading in that direction too. (Yup its "only" vanity pets atm ... that will change though mark my words)

I would accept the DDO model in any game I wanted to play, i think its great and allows players to buget thier game-price individually. The Cash shop + Sub games I avoid totally. Simple item shop games .. some I've played but they dont hold my interest long because they tend to be a money sink for me (I lack willpower and have to have it all sadly :( )

Over all I prefure to pay a straight sub .. which is why the DDO model still appeals to me because its an option there ... but i appreciate that some people like the consumer power of the item shops (to budget thier spending) so the DDO method strikes me as the best balance of the two. Double dippers can blow me. (Item shop + Sub)

er sorry to say this but this doesn't make any sense to me. The game doesn't give you teh full experience for free. You have to pay to level. Well that or grind a couple bajillion hours to attempt to get anything. Also you get "fluff" classes and "fluff" races. Ontop of that there's a few other things that you can only get by using the cash shop. So i don't really think ddo is truly a f2p game. It's a failed p2p game that went f2p with cash shop+p2p to try to survive since it wasn't up to snuff for p2pers to pay the bills.

I don't know what the big deal is with item malls. If you don't like them don't use them, or play a game that doesn't have one. If you like item shops, then more power to you.

I am currently playing EQ2. I havn't been playing for very long. For those that don't know it is P2P with an item mall. I don't buy any items from the mall and have no intention of ever buying something from the shop. I play the game like the item mall isn't in game. It doesn't bother me that other paople are using the mall. Not everyone has to play MMOs the same way that I do. +