Originally posted by fyerwall

Originally posted by Jordi85

Originally posted by fyerwall

 

I totally agree that there should always be group based content in an MMO, because not everything should be able to be tackled by just one person. Group content should always exist for a bigger challenge and a better gameplay dynamic for those who chose to do it. Solo players dont think that group content shouldnt exist, as many of them will do group content just to break up the monotiny of doing the same thing over and over everyday.

What soloers do want is other paths of advancement, even some that dont focus on combat. This is where the modern MMO is lacking as developers focus on either solo friendly or group centric gameplay. MMOs have gone from being a virtual world where a player had many options for fun (deep crafting for the people who just want to advance through crafting, thick and mysterious lore for the singular player to work through and of course dungeons that challenge even the most seasoned group of players - pretty much a 'choose your own adventure' style of game) to a basic A to B fight and grind game with little emphasis on community and more on combat and gear grabbing.

And no matter what people say, you cannot blame Blizzard and WoW for what has happened. Blizzard made a game for people who didnt care to play the deeper MMOs that required time and effort. They made a game that was fun from the start, sort of a 'My First MMO' that allowed player to jump in and experience the basics of an MMO. They didnt ask other companies to stop being original or to copy their game from the code up. Blame the other companies who decided that numbers were more important than being original.

As for the few vocal soloers who want everything to be equal (such as raid equiv gear without raiding) ignore them. Should solo players have access to good gear; gear that is better than basic quest drops? Sure. Should that gear require more challenge than normal questing? Yeah. Should that gear be on par with raid quality gear? Nope. Would I mind running around in that gear versus Raid gear? No, I wouldnt. In fact I would be proud to for the fact that 'I' worked hard to get it, 'I' spent the time and effort for it. Would I envy the raider who has better gear than me? No, because I know that if I wanted that quality gear all I would have to do is commit myself to doing the work with other people, which is another option for me if I get tired of the whole solo thing.

And to the 'omg group!' fanatics, grouping mechanics are the same as they have been, with the same rewards for the same effort. Just because there were 1 or 2 games in the past that you played where it was nothing but grouping, doesnt mean the whole genre has been turned on its ear or that you have been forgotten.

Underline 1:

I do not disagree upon that MMO's should or could have group based content. What I do belive though, is that (repeating myself... again) an MMO need be solo friendly to have at least some success. I also truly belive that an MMO can be perfectly successful without any Group "only" content.

Underline 2 & 3:

The gear I spend equally much time soloing and whatsoever effort I put into it to get, should be on par with gear that "raiders" get. My playstyle should not be any less rewarding than some other. Different approach, equally challenging, same result. Sounds pretty much fair to me. Again I must ask why this is a problem, as all those who favor grouping says they do it for the fun/"socializing"/whatever, when it CLEARLY shines through its for the loot. I am also very curious "why" it has to be so that raiders should have better gear than soloers...

Now, please stop being a fascist by saying "ignore that don't agree with you". I could say the same; Ignore those who say that Raid gear should be better than what soloers could get. Does'nt make any sense either of those 2 comments.

Personally, I find it quite a paradox inside MMO world that the game developers are "encouraging" Group play, when it seem that people wouldnt have done it if it werent for that exact reason.

Now I could flip the coin of this debate by saying this:

There should be quest lines that are BETTER rewarded than what Raiding gives; These quest lines should demand the extreme out of the players skills, for frankly, most raiders truly suck when it comes to have skills on their toons. Thats why most of them raid, and not do any pvp, cause they get their asses whopped real bad all the time. REAL bad...

For what skills do you need other than be able to jump when told to then press 4 to utilize your skill? The most challenging part of raiding is for me, to bear up with all the idiots' elitist mentality & leet kid behavior. So don't come here talk bs about raiding being any more challenging than f.ex doing solo pvp. Thats utterly nonsense. Everyone can raid all conent, but only a few makes it to the top in pvp world. All you have to possess when you "raid", is time, while you need true skills when you pvp.

Originally posted by chrisel

Same gear different efforts, not same efforts! Again, do not blame soloers for crap game mechanics. Also, do not try to change focus; none of us are talking about being able to solo same stuff as a group can take down. You keep your raids for yoursel, preferably in another thread.

Excuse me, but there have been posts on this thread - by yourself included - talking abou t the value of gear from solo versus group encounters. Do not try to spin the situation now because you don't like a rebuttal from someone, suggesting they leave the thread. That right there, my friend, is the sign of someone with no solid argument to make. "I can't adequately debate your point, so I'm going to tell you to leave instead".

What is so worrying about soloers having same gear as groupers anyway? I can't see the big deal there. You are acting self righteous & quite selfish when it comes to gear. Which is ridicolous.

LOL. If you read my post and take away that I'm self-righteous, then you need to learn to read. Or, you're simply being willfully ignorant.

I said in my own post *I'm not a raider*. I've done some and don't find them worth the time given the rewards (ironic, I know). I do, however, enjoy group content. I also happen to enjoy soloing as well.  I just happen to believe that the two - particularly the rewards - for both playstyles should be "equal" simply because some don't want to group.

I don't have superior "group only" gear myself in MMOs I play, and likely never will. However, in my experience doing raids, I can acknowledge the difference in challenge of conducting and executing a plan with a *group* (emphasis on group) to take down a larger and more complex battle, compared to solo encounters that aren't nearly as complex or require nearly as much coordination. I don't become jealous of others' gear because I know I could acquire that same gear as well - if I wanted to. There's no locked door preventing me from doing so. Thus, to me, it's perfectly fine for the larger *group* (emphasis on group again), with the greater overall challenge, to reap greater rewards.

I'm not *afraid* of solo gear being as good as raid gear. Yet again... *I'm not a raider*. I don't have that gear anyway. Learn to read. However, objectively speaking (that is, being able to see past my own nose at the bigger picture), I can see why raids are more involved and more challenging than solo encounters, and so, deserve better rewards.

Here's a question: Why are *you* so afraid of people who are willing to put the effort to coordinate and take on larger, more complex challenges getting better rewards for that effort? Especially since you *have* the option of doing it as well if you wanted to. If a group of people is willing to take the time and effort to coordinate themselves to take on a very difficult encounter that you might pass on because you don't want to group up, why shouldn't they get a reward sufficient to that greater effort? Because you would feel "punished" for *choosing* not to participate?

And it's not only raids. It filters down to smaller encounters as well. A group version of an encounter is going to be, ostensibly, more involved, more difficult and require far more coordination among a *group* of people than a similar encounter would for a solo person with only themself to worry about. In those cases, too, I believe the rewards should be at least slightly better.

I'm perfectly fine with there being a "solo" version of a reward and a "group" version of a reward. I don't feel 'put out' in those situations. I simply decide whether the group reward is worth the extra time and effort to me to obtain. I don't, like yourself and others, say "well I don't want to group, so they need to make all the rewards equal so I don't have to, or else the game isn't fair".

 I don't believe everything should be equally available to everyone regardless of their playstyle. That's homogenization of the genre, and lowers the ceilings for those who *are* interested in going that extra mile, so those who don't want to leave their own backyard don't feel "left out". It's a lazy, entitled mentality that's been taking over MMOs in the past several years, and it's getting old.

I do though, expect my playstyle be equally rewarding as someone who favor to play in a group, which is quite opposite to you group-fanatics who demands your playstyle being favored and better rewarded.

/facepalm

Your group fanatics are more than welcome in my MMO's, but it really doesnt seem we would have any spot in "your" MMO's if you were to choose.

Awww well that's awful nice of you. How generous to "welcome us" into "your MMOs". Remind me to add you to my Holiday Card list just for that extreme demonstration of generosity and good will toward us groupers. I didn't realize you were the ambassador for solo MMOs.

Sarcasm aside... that statement, "in my MMO's", says a lot more about your mentality than I think you realize. They're not *your* MMO's, pal. They're for anyone and everyone who wants to play them. Get over yourself.

Likewise.

Reply too boring too read. Felt it was en eternal repeat of same old same old. Could'nt make it more than a few lines down, sorry.

Now shut the door after you.

/bearhug :)

Edit; I have actually changed my mind about who should get best gear, like I have changed view upon many topics before in my life, and certainly will. This is obviously not "allowed" in your narrow little word though, but I could care less about that.

Best gear should be rewarded to soloers. Simply put cause it requires most skill to survive alone. Voila, homogenization avoided, and plenty of height up to the ceiling too!

Attack the points, not the poster please. 

/queue Thread Lock

Originally posted by chrisel

Likewise.

Reply too boring too read. Felt it was en eternal repeat of same old same old. Could'nt make it more than a few lines down, sorry.

Now shut the door after you.

/bearhug :)

Ahh yes, the classic "I can't rebut any of your points, so I'm going to attack the post and/or poster instead".

I'll take that as your graceless admission of defeat.

And, no.. I think I'll stay around. Last I checked, these still weren't your forums. So.. yeah... get over yourself.

Edit: Your added bit is redundant. Your "MMO Utopia" was already made pretty obvious through reading the rest of your posts.

"A MMO that's entirely soloable and where all the best gear is handed out to those who don't want to put forth the effort to obtain it; where those who are willing, even eager, to put forth more effort and coordination in a group effort are shown nothing more for it, because laziness and less effort should be more greatly rewarded".

I bet you just creamed your pants reading that, didn't you.

Needless to say... I vehemently disagree with your perspective on it and believe that a greater effort and challenge deserves greater rewards.

I do not know what world you are living in, but the most challenging parts of the MMO world is actually for those who solo.

To me, raiding only requires time and a good portion of patience. Nothing more. Not anything fancy about that, not anything even close to be something that should be looked as an "achievemnt of high deed". it is a simple game mechanic offered to people who are unable to solo their way to the top. If it wasnt there for those who havent got the skills, what should they do in the MMO? Cause they are aint for sure not enjoying the content as it looks for me. Only enjoy is that they get the loot.

Why this type of play should be more rewarding than one that is obviously needing more skills AND time, is beyond a mystery to me. Huh, handing out better reward to a playstyle that requires less brain than the other.... interesting actually. Like that is good for the environment...? Those players who are most disliked ingame, are in fact the group-fanatics, and still, MMO's encourages this. It is like applauding gangs mugging old women in the streets.

Edit:

I was honest when I said your reply were boring. Try say more with fewer words if you want my attention. I am a simple soul, quite used to get bashed here. Aka punchdrunk ;)

Originally posted by Simiel

grouping is for insecured noobs who don't have the balls and confidence to do anything themselves. They need something to fall back on in-case they fail to do a quest, or kill a boss, or die. They need something in PvP that secures their win against another person, or someone to talk shit to when they get owned by pros. That's as simple as it comes. As the result, enough of them come together would create what we now see as "zerg guild", little girls who can't play by themselves.

Lol you are apparenlty the insecure person who has to insult other people for wanting to actually play with others in a MULTIPLAYER game lol.  I love these kids that have the epeen mentality that is so prevalent with todays MMOs.  Back in the day MMO gaming was better..not because of the games..but because this type of attitude was so less prevalent.

Originally posted by Korrowan

Originally posted by Simiel

 

Lol you are apparenlty the insecure person who has to insult other people for wanting to actually play with others in a MULTIPLAYER game lol.  I love these kids that have the epeen mentality that is so prevalent with todays MMOs.  Back in the day MMO gaming was better..not because of the games..but because this type of attitude was so less prevalent.

So, the MMO's from the 'good old days' are better than those on marked today? All you need is better gfx in same old game & problem is fixed...?

 This is getting pretty stupid now=)

But to those who want soloing to offer the best rewards, please cite an example from any MMO of a difficulty that rivals the hardest raids or group encounters in say, WOW since most people understand the complexity that they offer?  If that complexity escapes you, please refer to any FAQ site and start reading the dictionary-like walk-throughs that people have written.   If you say raiding is easy and people just sit around with their eyes closed, you obviously haven't raided, so your opinion is disqualified=)

Personally I'd LOVE if there were solo encounters that were actually hard, that couldn't be easily trivialized by bringing more people, picking a different class or gaining a few more levels.  They just don't exist, nor do I expect developers to start creating balanced custom encounters for 1000s of class/spell/ability combinations.  See you can't have one class blow through a boss solo, while making it impossible for another due to imbalances.  That just doesn't fly.  

Content designed for a group has always been more difficult due to many obvious factors.  We're not talking a group blowing through greens while leveling up.  Dungeons are harder and more complex.  Its just the facts.  When the day comes that soloing really is HARDER than grouping, it should be interesting, but that day has never come.

Originally posted by Ceridith

 

---

Originally posted by madeux

---

Originally posted by Ceridith

 

There does seem to be too much emphasis on soloing in MMOs lately. It's not necessarily a bad thing to offer channels of gameplay within an MMO that are presented in a solo friendly fashion, but it's getting to the point where there's increasingly little to no reason to even bother grouping with other players, let alone interact with them.

---

 
If being "fun" isn't enough of a reason, then what is the point?

---

 

When all/most of the content is geared and balanced towards being soloable, it tends to become trivial when faced by a group. Things that have no challenge aren't fun -- for normal people anyways.

Developers figured out how to scale content to group size a long time ago.  Plus, players can set their own difficulty level in a thousand different ways.  Pull more mobs, pull over level mobs.  "The game isn't challenging enough" argument doesn't hold water.  Wear lower level armor, use lower level weapons.  You can set your own difficulty level.  

The issue at the heart of the matter is bragging rights and e-peens.  If solo players, i.e. anybody, can finish all the content without having to group then there won't be content that's so hard that only players in a huge guild will be able to finish it and brag about it.  What's the point in bragging that your guild downed Thargobtorcronbad if a solo player can scale the instance or recruit npc group members and do it too.   

Originally posted by Josher

 This is getting pretty stupid now=)

But to those who want soloing to offer the best rewards, please cite an example from any MMO of a difficulty that rivals the hardest raids or group encounters in say, WOW since most people understand the complexity that they offer?  If that complexity escapes you, please refer to any FAQ site and start reading the dictionary-like walk-throughs that people have written.   If you say raiding is easy and people just sit around with their eyes closed, you obviously haven't raided, so your opinion is disqualified=)

Personally I'd LOVE if there were solo encounters that were actually hard, that couldn't be easily trivialized by bringing more people, picking a different class or gaining a few more levels.  They just don't exist, nor do I expect developers to start creating balanced custom encounters for 1000s of class/spell/ability combinations.  See you can't have one class blow through a boss solo, while making it impossible for another due to imbalances.  That just doesn't fly.  

Content designed for a group has always been more difficult due to many obvious factors.  We're not talking a group blowing through greens while leveling up.  Dungeons are harder and more complex.  Its just the facts.  When the day comes that soloing really is HARDER than grouping, it should be interesting, but that day has never come.

*cough* solo pvp *cough*

Most challenging part of biggest MMO outthere; World of Warcraft.

@Underlined: Again, you are giving up examples that is about bad game mechanics. If you had read all about me, not that I expect that, you would know I do not like classes, at all.

Remove classes, and you would have a totally different game to offer the soloers. So, do not blame us soloers for wanting access to same gear, when it is hindered by bad game mechanics. You are locked in a class system, which narrows your view too much. Now try think about a system where you become what you do, not what you choose, and the possibilites are alot more.

Let me give you an example; Lets say you were having a free character developing system, maybe limited by a certain pts BUT being able to reset character to rebuild. Much as we do in real life. Forget and learn new skills.

Now you jump into an instance 1; your build works fine, you get the phat loot and so on. Then next instance 2; your characters skills aint good enough. Too bad too sad, right. Now you have the option to adapt or move on; start learning new stuff, or dont. Your choice. As it is now, raiding is nearly brainless. yep, it is. Even mouseclickers can faceroll any instance given they have the right gear. Pointless & un-challenging. I stand my ground there. Solo pvp will ALWAYS on ANY term be more challenging than whatsoever instance you are able to present me due to the simple fact that you are fighting vs the NPC's/mobs. Players will always give you the ultimate challenge.

The day you are not able to faceroll instances as a keybinder, then you might have my credit. Just might. Until then, its a lol when someone comes up in my face bragging about their 'raid skills'. Just lol...

Originally posted by Spike465

Originally posted by Ceridith

 

---

Originally posted by madeux

---

Originally posted by Ceridith

---

 

 
If being "fun" isn't enough of a reason, then what is the point?

---

 

When all/most of the content is geared and balanced towards being soloable, it tends to become trivial when faced by a group. Things that have no challenge aren't fun -- for normal people anyways.

 

Developers figured out how to scale content to group size a long time ago.  Plus, players can set their own difficulty level in a thousand different ways.  Pull more mobs, pull over level mobs.  "The game isn't challenging enough" argument doesn't hold water.  Wear lower level armor, use lower level weapons.  You can set your own difficulty level.  

The issue at the heart of the matter is bragging rights and e-peens.  If solo players, i.e. anybody, can finish all the content without having to group then there won't be content that's so hard that only players in a huge guild will be able to finish it and brag about it.  What's the point in bragging that your guild downed Thargobtorcronbad if a solo player can scale the instance or recruit npc group members and do it too.   

Whats the point of bragging in the first place...?

A few years back (2005 I think) I was in a hardcore raid guild in EQ2, we raided nightly from 6-7pm until 1-2am. At that point in time I would have agreed then that raiders should have the best. Now however as I am a little older and life a lot busier I am unable to raid like that and have changed my opinion to soloer's need love too if the developers wish to get their money. I am simply unable to raid like I used to but have not lost my love for mmorpg's. Maybe raiders could have a little better stuff, but just barely.

EQ2 had a set of legacy quests (i think thats what they were called) that gave you a lot of the must have items in game, now for some parts of those quests you needed a group but a large part of each very lengthy quest chain was soloable. Maybe this is an approach devs could keep in mind.

The point is I want to be able to have some of the games better gear and I pay the same money every month that everyone else does, so should I be punished because I have a busy life? Jobs, wives, kids and other things take priority over sitting in front of my computer 10 hours a day, however I am still able to play 3 or 4 nights a week for a couple hours a night, do I not deserve to have nice gear in my chosen game? If the mmo company wants my money I had better be able too.

Just my thoughts as an older gamer.

Originally posted by chrisel

I do not know what world you are living in, but the most challenging parts of the MMO world is actually for those who solo.

To me, raiding only requires time and a good portion of patience. Nothing more. Not anything fancy about that, not anything even close to be something that should be looked as an "achievemnt of high deed".

And this brings up a common problem with most raid based MMO's, raids are becoming easier to cater for the mass market.  I for one believe most raid content should have better rewards than solo play, but I also think that raid content in a majority of games should be considerably more difficult than they are currently.

Originally posted by chrisel

Originally posted by Spike465

Originally posted by Ceridith

 

---

Originally posted by madeux

---

Originally posted by Ceridith

---

 

 
If being "fun" isn't enough of a reason, then what is the point?

---

 

When all/most of the content is geared and balanced towards being soloable, it tends to become trivial when faced by a group. Things that have no challenge aren't fun -- for normal people anyways.

 

Developers figured out how to scale content to group size a long time ago.  Plus, players can set their own difficulty level in a thousand different ways.  Pull more mobs, pull over level mobs.  "The game isn't challenging enough" argument doesn't hold water.  Wear lower level armor, use lower level weapons.  You can set your own difficulty level.  

The issue at the heart of the matter is bragging rights and e-peens.  If solo players, i.e. anybody, can finish all the content without having to group then there won't be content that's so hard that only players in a huge guild will be able to finish it and brag about it.  What's the point in bragging that your guild downed Thargobtorcronbad if a solo player can scale the instance or recruit npc group members and do it too.   

 

Whats the point of bragging in the first place...?

That's why they play the game.  It gives them a sense of importance and prowess that they don't get from real life.  E-peen def. v. used to describe the act of showing off or stroking one's own ego, esp. with regard to computer game prowess.  A lot of players don't play for fun, they play for the ego trip.  Game developers know that there are a lot  ego driven gamers and most design their games with content like raids and rare powerful loot that the majority of the gaming population will never achieve so that these ego driven players will get that feeling of superiority over the average player.  If a solo player can recruit npcs or scale an instance to finish this content then that ego driven player won't be able to achieve that feeling of superiority.    

Originally posted by Psycho2k

Originally posted by chrisel

I do not know what world you are living in, but the most challenging parts of the MMO world is actually for those who solo.

To me, raiding only requires time and a good portion of patience. Nothing more. Not anything fancy about that, not anything even close to be something that should be looked as an "achievemnt of high deed".

And this brings up a common problem with most MMO's these days, raids are becoming easier to cater for the mass market.  I for one believe most group/raid content should have better rewards than solo play, but I also think that group/raid content in a majority of games should be considerably more difficult than they are currently.

Fair enough about that instances should be more challenging. Do also take into consideration then that MMOs these days are either balancing towards PvP or PvE. Take WoW for example, it balances classes around the PvP, mainly arenas. Still you get "some" of the best gear from raiding, even for PvP. At least, it was so back when I used to play. I find that a bit hard to accept.

I now play LOTRO, a PvE game, with some awful PvmP mechanic. Here its all about PvE gear, favoring grouped playstyle. Now, with the new feature of 'Skirmishes', where you can get NPC's to fight for you, doing instancves and such, we suddenly add a new option for people; Either do these instances alone, or do them with a group. Afaik it takes longer time to grind gear with Skirmishes the solo way, but that is okay with me. The game mechanic is offering me that, which I am quite happy for. Well, atm, I dont care (much) about gear in LOTRO, since I am a PvP'er. Still, very nice option for those who want it that way. (I think thats the way Skirmishes work in LOTRO?)

Originally posted by Spike465

Originally posted by chrisel

Originally posted by Spike465

Originally posted by Ceridith

 

---

Originally posted by madeux

---

Originally posted by Ceridith

---

 

 
If being "fun" isn't enough of a reason, then what is the point?

---

 

When all/most of the content is geared and balanced towards being soloable, it tends to become trivial when faced by a group. Things that have no challenge aren't fun -- for normal people anyways.

 

Whats the point of bragging in the first place...?

 

That's why they play the game.  It gives them a sense of importance and prowess that they don't get from real life.  E-peen def. v. used to describe the act of showing off or stroking one's own ego, esp. with regard to computer game prowess.  A lot of players don't play for fun, they play for the ego trip.  Game developers know that there are a lot  ego driven gamers and most design their games with content like raids and rare powerful loot that the majority of the gaming population will never achieve so that these ego driven players will get that feeling of superiority over the average player.  If a solo player can recruit npcs or scale an instance to finish this content then that ego driven player won't be able to achieve that feeling of superiority.    

So now LOTRO will be blamed for killing the ego-trippers, just like WoW was blamed for killing the 'forced-grouping' genre of MMO...?

Originally posted by chrisel

Originally posted by Spike465

Originally posted by chrisel

Originally posted by Spike465

Originally posted by Ceridith

 

---

Originally posted by madeux

---

Originally posted by Ceridith

---

 

 
If being "fun" isn't enough of a reason, then what is the point?

---

 

When all/most of the content is geared and balanced towards being soloable, it tends to become trivial when faced by a group. Things that have no challenge aren't fun -- for normal people anyways.

 

Whats the point of bragging in the first place...?

 

That's why they play the game.  It gives them a sense of importance and prowess that they don't get from real life.  E-peen def. v. used to describe the act of showing off or stroking one's own ego, esp. with regard to computer game prowess.  A lot of players don't play for fun, they play for the ego trip.  Game developers know that there are a lot  ego driven gamers and most design their games with content like raids and rare powerful loot that the majority of the gaming population will never achieve so that these ego driven players will get that feeling of superiority over the average player.  If a solo player can recruit npcs or scale an instance to finish this content then that ego driven player won't be able to achieve that feeling of superiority.    

So now LOTRO will be blamed for killing the ego-trippers, just like WoW was blamed for killing the 'forced-grouping' genre of MMO...?

I haven't played lotro's end-game enough to know exactly what's going on there.  Am I right that solo players are now able to get raid gear through skirmishes?  If so, then yeah.  Lotro is ruining the game for those poor selfish bastards. 

Yes, Skirmishes offers end game content where you get end game gear for soloers... By letting players control NPC's...

Ouch... bad bad LOTRO!! ;)

Originally posted by chrisel

Originally posted by Korrowan

Originally posted by Simiel

 

Lol you are apparenlty the insecure person who has to insult other people for wanting to actually play with others in a MULTIPLAYER game lol.  I love these kids that have the epeen mentality that is so prevalent with todays MMOs.  Back in the day MMO gaming was better..not because of the games..but because this type of attitude was so less prevalent.

 

So, the MMO's from the 'good old days' are better than those on marked today? All you need is better gfx in same old game & problem is fixed...?

No the issue is the people playing a lot of these games want things RIGHT now.  They have been handed everything to them since they were conceived and having to "work" for something is too hard for them to fathom.  Along with that they do not want to work with others as all they care about is themselves (see facebook, there is a really good article on this phenomenom).  Everyone wants the best but wants it easy. 

Back in the day when I played EQ from 1999-2004 we worked for stuff.  I had no issue with camping a froglok with a group for 6 hours a day until I got my FBSS for instance.  The reward for the time spent was enough not to mention the relationships that were created with the people I was grouped with.  To this day I still have friends that I met in EQ grinding out levels and gear.  Now its just fly through this dungeon and get l33t epix so you faceroll some noobs.  Its as if the community went from being a community to a bunch of "I"s and it has destroyed what a MMO used to be.  It used to be about creating relationships with others while playing a game..now its about loot and everyone else can go to hell as all that matters is "MY" loot.  Notice the change in the dynamics.

MMOs today cater to that type of person and not to the people who played to create relationships and have fun while doing it.  Today its much better to just go to the bar and shoot pool or join a social club as the social aspect of MMOs was all but destroyed by WoW and its loot centric soloing mentality.  Another place this is noticed is how people choose arena partners and will dump someone regardless of how well they know them for some random guy because his loot is better... it makes me sick.