I can see my self doing this many many years from now when i am old and grey, with no teeth and a cane. ...

Why yes Tommy we did have MMOS when I was young....

Why back in my day we had to group to get the good experience!!

We had to make naked corpse runs uphill in the snow!!

Dying could cost you hours worth of experience!!

Wa actually took long boat rides to get around, we lost poor Bob once when he fell off!!

We didn't have these fancy "addons" for our games, if you had an addon back then you were a hacker!!

We didn't have fancy ventrillo, we actually had to type!!

Those were the good old days!

*shakes his cane at you*

Get off my lawn you young whippersnappers!!!

Originally posted by Varny

Go play EQ and then play WoW and then say that, WoW takes much more skill and the game actually has good PVP where your skill can mean you can take on 3 vs 1. 

WoW is so much better, all my friends prefer it's combat and that is why it's so popular and EQ is dead.

SKILL? ROFL!! you better stop while you are ahead... WoW has very limited skill involved other then how hard you twink yer low level BG toon and how fast your internet / comp / keyboard spam will handle you pounding.

PvP is fun there and I had tons of fun doing it for a while, but I like playing Modern Warfare better, or Tribes, Unreal...etc cheaper too and much more gratifying in the end.

EQ was never about PvP ever...it was thrown in to keep a few pvp people happy..and it sucked..bad.../eos

Raiding in WoW is easier and less time consuming then EQ but the when you got done in EQ there was a sense of accomplishment...never really got that in WoW...and a lot of the skills that are used in WoW raiding...guess what..they were perfected in EQ ... lol.

WoW = skeeellz...wooo..that was a pants pisser.

This is a weird thread, and the OP is making comments & arguments that make no sense. I don't even know where to start lol.

Let's see, WoW & EQ are different games. When WoW was released, EQ had been out for 5 years and had started to decline due to the bad expansion that got released that year.  WoW in itself was inspired by EQ, many of their original developers were EQ players and they actually met in EQ.  What WoW did very well, was they took many ideas from other games and made them just a tad better, and enhanced them.  So voila, you had WoW, a name (Warcraft) that is very popular in the gaming world, and it drew tons new players into the MMO genre.

The point is these are two different games.  I mean if you want to bring up EQ, why not bring up AC? DAOC?  UO?  Fact of the matter is, no game can really compare to WoW because it's just a freak of nature.  WoW did something that no other games have been able to do in this genre.  So there really is no comparison, no argument, and it isn't about WoW vs EQ, it's really WoW vs the whole MMO scene.

Blizzard is known for creating quality, polished games.  They live up to their reputation well and they do a good job of it.  With WoW they set a standard in which if games are not polished upon release, don't have enough content, and don't have smooth gameplay, they're gonna have trouble attracting and keeping customers.  Fair or not, that's the price everybody else has to pay for Blizzard pulling in so many new gamers into the MMO genre.

Polish is not what led people to play WoW instead of EQ. EQ is polished and is still generating profit to this very day and still releasing expansion packs and opening new servers.

Need to check your facts son.

EQ had the largest player base of any MMO to date until WoW launched. It was a whopping 250k. So if WoW has 11 million as they claim, which is complete bogus number by the way inflated by using Asian ISP's subscriber numbers, Those 10.75 million players didnt come from EQ.

As someone earlier said EQ's only problem was EQ2. And dont look now but Blizzard is currently taking the same path with their undisclosed MMO they are working on. Greed has no bounds and WoW will  ruin WoW just like EQ ruined EQ.

The problem with EQ was never polish. Ten years later and They are releasing another Xpack this month. Oh no EQ is not dead.

WarCraft and Blizzard as a whole already had a fan base of millions before WoW came into being. There is your reason for the sub numbers. Nuff said. It's not the polish, it's not the content. It's the pre-existing IP.

EQ's problem isn't EQ2.  When EQ2 launched, yes many people (myself included) quit EQ1 to play EQ2.  But we did so because we all thought it was going to be an enhanced, upgraded EQ1 with better graphics while keeping the same gameplay & lore.  But no, what we got was something completely, totally different.  So people like me ended up quitting EQ2 fast and either went back to EQ1 or went on to play WoW.

EQ1 pretty much had the edge over EQ2 in population up until the past year or so, that's 3-4 years after EQ2's launch.  It proved EQ1 was the game their fanbase would rather play.  But the ever so wise SOE aka Smed decided to gobble up more games (Vanguard) and send developers off to future games in development such as recently released Free Realms, and the upcoming DCUO and the Agency.  EQ1's problem has more to do with SOE's decision to abandon a game that got them where they are today, in exchange for some of their new ideas, including EQ2, Free Realms, and RMT in all their games.

Will that work out? Who knows.  Personally I think it was a mistake for them to throw away loyal subscribers, but they are a corporation after all, so it's always tough to understand their reasoning.

Originally posted by rashhero

WarCraft and Blizzard as a whole already had a fan base of millions before WoW came into being. There is your reason for the sub numbers. Nuff said. It's not the polish, it's not the content. It's the pre-existing IP.

Yep and marketing, they pushed a ton of information out about it.

EQ is still going, I still go back and play both EQ1 and EQ2, along with a few other games. Though I no longer do much raiding any more, but it is still fun for those of us who play. Some of us even hit WoW once in a while to jump in a BG for grins.

Polish it is not lacking, updates to the model graphics..certainly. I think they should redo all the toons again to make them more inline with Drakkin type models, not exactly like drakkin, but flowing lines, less borders - like the Barbarian models, the female has the dumbest stance I have ever seen and the male model looks like his head and neck were sewed back on....each of them could use a tune up , a lot of them could use a diet to trim them down and higher poly count to smooth them out more.

The new zones look okay, and they have revamped some of the older zones, the Cliknar look pretty good so far so..to me there seems to be a crap load of polish more so then compared to almost any other game.  They have been polishing it for over 10 years now.

Originally posted by Bathnor

I can see my self doing this many many years from now when i am old and grey, with no teeth and a cane. ...

Why yes Tommy we did have MMOS when I was young....

Why back in my day we had to group to get the good experience!!

We had to make naked corpse runs uphill in the snow!!

Dying could cost you hours worth of experience!!

Wa actually took long boat rides to get around, we lost poor Bob once when he fell off!!

We didn't have these fancy "addons" for our games, if you had an addon back then you were a hacker!!

We didn't have fancy ventrillo, we actually had to type!!

Those were the good old days!

*shakes his cane at you*

Get off my lawn you young whippersnappers!!!

I could not have said that better. Excellent visualization Bathnor. Although coming off humorous, that is exactly how it was ... he is not exagerating. Games back then and before everquest are from a different era completely, computers back then were not on everyones desk. In fact back then the only people to even own a computer was few and far between and of those who did own one most people labeled em geeks, nerds, and thier views on those type of people were dim indeed. When MMO's first appeared they were pretty much looked upon in awe and confusion as they were beyond most peoples comprehension and playing online fantasy games back then was considered akin to devil worshiping by some. The gameplay back then was more mental stimulating than anything we have today. It is kinda hare to grasp if you hadn't been there. I could go on but im cutting this short due to interuptions in household................................
 

Originally posted by Wrender

Originally posted by Bathnor

I can see my self doing this many many years from now when i am old and grey, with no teeth and a cane. ...

Why yes Tommy we did have MMOS when I was young....

Why back in my day we had to group to get the good experience!!

We had to make naked corpse runs uphill in the snow!!

Dying could cost you hours worth of experience!!

Wa actually took long boat rides to get around, we lost poor Bob once when he fell off!!

We didn't have these fancy "addons" for our games, if you had an addon back then you were a hacker!!

We didn't have fancy ventrillo, we actually had to type!!

Those were the good old days!

*shakes his cane at you*

Get off my lawn you young whippersnappers!!!

I could not have said that better. Excellent visualization Bathnor. Although coming off humorous, that is exactly how it was ... he is not exagerating. Games back then and before everquest are from a different era completely, computers back then were not on everyones desk. In fact back then the only people to even own a computer was few and far between and of those who did own one most people labeled em geeks, nerds, and thier views on those type of people were dim indeed. When MMO's first appeared they were pretty much looked upon in awe and confusion as they were beyond most peoples comprehension and playing online fantasy games back then was considered akin to devil worshiping by some. The gameplay back then was more mental stimulating than anything we have today. It is kinda hare to grasp if you hadn't been there. I could go on but im cutting this short due to interuptions in household................................
 

1999 was not that long ago my friend. Most if not everyone had computers, although not necessarily good ones, but EQ didn't take a gaming PC to run.  You act like EQ released in the 1970s. Don't talk about a time when you weren't even born yet, because you don't know anything about it.

Originally posted by tro44_1

How did WoW manage to take many EQ players?

Didnt EQ come out before WoW? So how come that game didnt out polish Blizzard's WoW mmo?

Troll question, or clueless question. Which is it? Or both?

Answer 1). Because EQ had already been out  4 years, people grow tired after awhile.

Answer 2) EQ was one of the few grandfather games of the MMORPG genre, so it was crude. Just like an Atari game compared to a Nintendo game (Or later). Good for it's time, but outdated.

Originally posted by tro44_1

How did WoW manage to take many EQ players?

Didnt EQ come out before WoW? So how come that game didnt out polish Blizzard's WoW mmo?

It has nothing to do with polish, it's two totally different target audiences. EQ is targeted at true MMORPG players, seeking a virtual world with heavy social focus and risk vs reward gameplay.
 

WoW is targeted at people who don't normally play games, or have short attention spans. There are far more of this kind than the first kind.

You can only do so much with a game - graphics, engine, UI, etc - without completely remaking it. WoW will hit that point eventually as well, and will not be able to incorporate some of the new functionality other games introduce without a complete engine overhaul.

Originally posted by grimfall

 

Well, that's not technically correct.  The vast majority of initial WoW players, were at some time EQ players.

The main appeal to WoW is that it gives a sense of achievement, much more easily than did it's predecestors - primarily EQ on which it was unabashadly based.

What do you mean by 'polish' though?  EQ probably has 4 times the content of WoW and did it with much less money, so it may lack some 'polish'.

EQ gave plenty of sense of achievement...just in a different way.

Not dying in a tough area and hence, not having to lose xp and recover your corpse/gear was an accomplishment in itself. Downing that tough mob, traveling through a dangerous area to get to your intended destination (Not every area graduated in lvl as you progressed), etc, etc.

Yes, I played WoW for awhile after having played EQ for 4 years, but I didn't switch because I didn't feel I was getting enough gratification and sense ofachievement. It was just tiring after playing that long and I wanted to try something different.

Originally posted by tro44_1

but that still doesnt explain why WoW out polished EQ. EverQuest came out way before WoW.

Remember like the Early WARHAMMER release, and how fans would say, "you cant compare War to WoW, because WoW had 4 years to polish,,,,Bah Bahh BAhhh"

Well EQ is older right? So what happened?

A lot of this had to do with the way the original code was written.

The game had an expected life expectancy of less than a year and was not intended to be expanded upon.

Add in the fact that the original game was written in a very convoluted, non-modular manner and that none of the original programmers are left to sort through that old code..........

EQ is rife with outdated mechanics that were never intended to be extended beyond level 50. Updating those mechanics is extremely difficult, and can often break many unrelated systems.

WoW, and most other MMO's, are built in a much more modular fashion. This makes polishing or updating core game mechanics much simpler.

The funniest part about this to me is:

It is like racing a 1977 corvette to a new one and wondering why the new one kicked the shit of the old one.

Or wondering why GM did just keep working on that old 1977 corvette to make it better instead of flushing it down the toilet and starting from the beginning and making a all new better car with the same name.

Of course you run the risk of having a bad design and making something worse the the original, um like maybe the early 80's corvettes or well EQ2 but anyway..

The point is sometimes it is just better to start new because it would be more work then trying to rework something older.

To Thwart any complaining:  in my car analogy I know there maybe be only 5 years difference in the games and 30 years in the cars but technology advances MUCH faster then the auto industry.

Originally posted by tro44_1

How did WoW manage to take many EQ players?

Didnt EQ come out before WoW? So how come that game didnt out polish Blizzard's WoW mmo?

Why, the answer is simple young man/lady and it can be summarized as follows :

SoE.

Originally posted by rashhero

WarCraft and Blizzard as a whole already had a fan base of millions before WoW came into being. There is your reason for the sub numbers. Nuff said. It's not the polish, it's not the content. It's the pre-existing IP.

You mean just like Warhammer has a Fanbase from TT and RTS? Ooh wait, I remember how that went

Originally posted by Goatgod76

Originally posted by tro44_1

How did WoW manage to take many EQ players?

Didnt EQ come out before WoW? So how come that game didnt out polish Blizzard's WoW mmo?

 

Troll question, or clueless question. Which is it? Or both?

 

Answer 1). Because EQ had already been out  4 years, people grow tired after awhile.

If thats the case, then why is WoW still at the Top? EQ didnt pull off a WoW effect on the market.  Even to this day, WoW still has growing numbers, yet it came out newer then EQ just like AoC,DF,WAR, Etc

Answer 2) EQ was one of the few grandfather games of the MMORPG genre, so it was crude. Just like an Atari game compared to a Nintendo game (Or later). Good for it's time, but outdated.

Oh I guess using that logic. WoW should be dead by now. Guess not. Blizzard manages to keep their gamers, and gain new ones, why couldnt EQ (THE GRANDDADDY OF THEME PARK MMOS) do the same?

Originally posted by tro44_1

Originally posted by rashhero

WarCraft and Blizzard as a whole already had a fan base of millions before WoW came into being. There is your reason for the sub numbers. Nuff said. It's not the polish, it's not the content. It's the pre-existing IP.

 

You mean just like Warhammer has a Fanbase from TT and RTS? Ooh wait, I remember how that went

Difference is, Blizzard had a great deal MORE fans that were playing actual computer games, and Blizzard created the ultimate shallow casual experience to ease these fans into the game. WAR was fairly different in terms of MMO designs, and those that may have been pulled into it already were already playing WoW.
 

Originally posted by Bathnor

I can see my self doing this many many years from now when i am old and grey, with no teeth and a cane. ...

Why yes Tommy we did have MMOS when I was young....

Why back in my day we had to group to get the good experience!!

We had to make naked corpse runs uphill in the snow!!

Dying could cost you hours worth of experience!!

Wa actually took long boat rides to get around, we lost poor Bob once when he fell off!!

We didn't have these fancy "addons" for our games, if you had an addon back then you were a hacker!!

We didn't have fancy ventrillo, we actually had to type!!

Those were the good old days!

*shakes his cane at you*

Get off my lawn you young whippersnappers!!!

haha -- I LOVE IT !!  I started up with EQ in '99 and I have thought/said this sort of thing for a few years now.  Good stuff -- and all true.  On a side note, I loved EQ until they started with the forced raiding crap.  Sorry, I dont have 8 hours to form a raid group -- yes I said FORM...then you still need to set aside some time to actually do the raid --- sorry, not this guy.