Originally posted by Flummoxed

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

Any RP minded table-top GM or DM could create a more "fantastic" and unique world that what's being pushed out today.

 

YES!  ABSOLUTELY.  I agree 100%. 

Local Hobby GMs / DMs are FAR MORE SKILLED in creating immersive scenarios and campaigns than the so-called professionals today. 

With the exception of Bioware and a cuople indies, the phony commercial rpg "designers" today are not worth a DAMN.

The so-called professional game designers today aren't fit to stoop down and untie the sandals of the hobby designers.

My friend actually made a DnD Campaign that was nearly Identical to Dragon Age's Storyline about a month before it was announced. :P

Originally posted by Flummoxed

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

Any RP minded table-top GM or DM could create a more "fantastic" and unique world that what's being pushed out today.

 

YES!  ABSOLUTELY.  I agree 100%. 

Local Hobby GMs / DMs are FAR MORE SKILLED in creating immersive scenarios and campaigns than the so-called professionals today. 

With the exception of Bioware and a cuople indies, the phony commercial rpg "designers" today are not worth a DAMN.

The so-called professional game designers today aren't fit to stoop down and untie the sandals of the hobby designers.

I'm sorry, but you're absolutely, 100% wrong.

Most professional storytellers are not lacking in imagination or creativity whatsoever. This is only argued by people who have no insight into how the professional creative industries work. First of all, what's being put out there is not determined by the writers' degree of creativity, but by demand. You can come up with some wild stuff nobody's even dreamt of before, and if the money decides there's not enough audience for it, tough luck... It's not going to reach the masses.

Even more importantly, concepts being "fantastic" or "unique" does not mean much in and of themselves. The secret to good storytelling is implementation, not innovation. Originality is volatile, not to mention for the most part insubstantial - if you've read enough and seen enough, almost anything seems like a re-run anyway. Look at the greatest works of film and literature and you'll see most aren't at all original in concept - they're just deep and strong in implementation. Actually, coming up with catchy concepts is the Hollywood way of doing things.

I've been exposed to a lot of amateur stuff, and I've read a lot of pro stuff... and while there's some crossover where a few amateur stories are well implemented and compelling and some of the pros are amateurish, trust me, on the whole, there's absolutely no competition. Most amateurs come up with ideas they think are original (again, most aren't), but cannot make a story get under your skin. So even when interesting, their stuff is usually quite forgettable (Hey, but then  this is true for the majority of pro stories, too).

As a last pointer, fantasy literature as a rule is made of familiars... It's how the genre works. If you try to detach it from its archetypes and thousands of years of structure, it's just going to end up as a sorry attempt at literature (See some of the clueless D&D books). There are tons of books on the structure of fairy tales and epics, anyone going "OMG, it's always the same stuff!!!" would do well to read up on the subject.

 I admit that I have an extremely soft spot for Tolkien's Mirkwood elves. I love the fact that they were strong fighters and extremely protective of their own territory, as well as the fact that they too had a weakness; they too loved gold. And, Thranduil was a perfect example of that.

That being said, this article has made me all the more eager to try Dragon Age. I recently bought Torchlight and resubbed to EVE, so I'm a little short of money at the moment. However, after hearing about how the traditional proud, wise elves being enslaved by humans has made me very keen to see what it's like. I'm definitely rolling an Elf when I get that game.

Originally posted by Flummoxed

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

Any RP minded table-top GM or DM could create a more "fantastic" and unique world that what's being pushed out today.

 

YES!  ABSOLUTELY.  I agree 100%. 

Yeah, thats what killed DDO and CO for me. They couldn't hold a candle to the table-top ver we played. The rules and books were a launching point for our GM.

Originally posted by Cerion

Originally posted by Flummoxed

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

Any RP minded table-top GM or DM could create a more "fantastic" and unique world that what's being pushed out today.

 

YES!  ABSOLUTELY.  I agree 100%. 

Local Hobby GMs / DMs are FAR MORE SKILLED in creating immersive scenarios and campaigns than the so-called professionals today. 

With the exception of Bioware and a cuople indies, the phony commercial rpg "designers" today are not worth a DAMN.

The so-called professional game designers today aren't fit to stoop down and untie the sandals of the hobby designers.

That can be true...but because I'm anonymous here I can tell you that my GM has become real lazy with the introduction of 4e D&D.  It's as though he's on autopilot.

But yeah...maybe someday Game developers will hire actual writers and game theorists, and not simply programmers who happened to have gotten a few good grades in English, or who taught themselves game design through MUDS (Nothing wrong with MUDS, mind you).

Which is why none of the 3 GM/DM in our group, me being one, will touch 4th ed D&D. A big part of the reason anyway. A nicely complicated system helps foster the imagination. I got my first bad feeling when to-hit-armour-class-0 (THAC0) went the way of the dodo.

Personally my favorite elves are the elves from The  Dark Sun campaign setting of D&D. Haughty xenophobes who hate all outsiders even other elves. Also had my favorite Halflings: primitive canabls (real ankle biters)

 Ah, Dark Sun halflings. Primitiva cannibals, yes. But primitive cannibals riding dinosaurs.

As for elves, I always was fond of the elves of the homegrown world of a friend of mine. A demon needed a warrior race as his servants, and brought them into the world. Their culture was much like the feudal Japanese one - warriors wielding swords of extreme sharpness and great bows of immense power with skills that were beyond the incredible, strict feudal structures and power struggles, and a lot of Zen going on. Of course, they didn 't want to serve the demon, rebelled, gave him a drubbing. Then the demon went and got a hold of that world's orcs instead, who were much more amenable to being ruled.

Non-traditional Elves?

Look no further than Andrzej Sapkowski's "The Witcher" books and a PC game.  BioWare bluntly took that idea and incorporated it into Dragon Age. No wonder, 3 years ago Witcher the game was created with BioWare's participation. 

Elves from Sapkowski's novels are much more hardcore than the Dalish from DAO. Their conflict with humans is similar to the Israel/Palestinian conflict with Jews settling on Palestinian land (West Bank) and pushing the indigenous population further out.

And these elves use the same terrorist tactics as PLO used to (now Hamas is filling the role). That means, sabotage, raids, banditry, kidnapping, assassinations, you name it. All in the name of freedom and freeing their lands.

(humans are not indigenous to that world, they've appeared after destroying their own world millennia earlier coming in through a transdimensional portal).

Elven terrorist cells are called "The Squirrels" (Scoia'tael) and very often include dwarfs and hobbits - other discriminated groups, hated by racist humans (no Political Correctness  there, it's set in quasi-renaissance/medieval fantasy).

Elves know they'll lose. Humans breed faster, are more adaptable and their society is progressing with unbelievable speed. Through the progress of the books you can see the world changing (new inventions, society changes, new theories, spreading pollution through magic experiments, etc) and Elves can't keep up. Their longevity based culture is much more passive, less progressive and a relic of the older days.

Through millennia of humans' arrival Elven culture was in decline, shrinking, elves losing their identity and history. Elves from The Witcher books are very... Human. Hateful, bitter, often cruel and yes... racist as well.

Tolkien elves were smart. They knew human would rule the world eventually so they decided to leg it before shit hit the fan. The Witcher elves are Tolkien elves that stayed...

The elves of Final Fantasy XI also deviates from the typical norm of elves. Granted, they're very similar to Tolkien's proud race, but in the context of tree-hugging, goody-goody elves of many fantasy MMOs, they're quite unique in their own regards. The race is imperialistic ("hometown" is dubbed the Kingdom of San d'Oria) and are more into militaristic ambitions than being Mother Nature's designated protectors. They're not interested in crafting unless it has something to do with weaponry and armory. And unlike popular renditions of elves, they're not magic-hungry or dependent on it to make a living.

“Dark Elves…the goth chick that's pretty much the same as the regular chick, but with more wrist-cutting, drama, and clove cigarettes”

So true and you find so many of them online that is no wonder we need Dark/Night/Blood Elves for them to play. :)

I should point out that Tolkeins Elves of the first age were very different form those that followed. Their hubris and passion was awesome, they fought wars all the time, were incredibly eltitist and pigheaded. With time their passion waned and they became wise, in a sense the race ‘grew up’. So bassing a MMO’s Elves on those in the first age would be a very different story.

Poison Elves von Drew Hayes.

Probably dating myself but anybody remember the cartoon Gargoyles? Anyway, in this concept there is a elf named "Puc" drawn from a Midsummernights dream and he is NOT a goody 2 shoes. He hates humans or any other race for that matter and thinks of them as playthings or something to play tricks on. There was a couple that he answered to but can't remember who they were. Sorry it has been so long I cant remember too many of the details but I remember Puc and he was nasty. Not to be confused with the Movie Midsummernights dream with Stanley Tucci. He was ok but not as dark. Again old fart with lack of memory ;)

Yes Vulcans and Romulans are elves. Klingons are orcs. For some reason I am blanking out on the races in DS9 but hobbit/halflings and ogres maybe?

I rather see elves based on the original norse myths that Tolkien himself borrowed them from. Or for that matter based on irish Sidhes.

Elves in the norse mythology are kinda half gods, there are 2 kinds: Dusk elves/Morning elves (hard to translate) and Dawn elves/Evning elves/Black elves/Dark elves. The last ones are not necessarily evil and the first ones are not always good.You can still feel some of the original lore in Tolkiens elves but it is all gone in the D&D elves we see in the MMOs.
 

The elves in the Fever series by Karen Marie Moning are different.  The series is a little perverted, but it is an interesting slant on the Fae.

I believe the first book in the series is free to download on Amazon right now. 

Originally posted by Elikal

Personally I always like Dark Elves more, because they are less ethereal and more hands on than the classic Wood Elves. I just don't like the Drow, the D&D depiction of Dark Elves, because esentially an evil society is absurd. It could not exist. I like the version of the Tamriel Dark Elves from Elder Scrolls. I still wait for the ideal Dark Elves in some story, a race which is a mix of Romulans and Klingons in Elvish, if you like. Warriors and moody beings, but not evil. (I am just a bit pissed about the racism in the idea all good Elves are blond and white skinned and dark skinned Elves are evil. Thats just rubbish.)

What most authors and games fail to depict is that an Elf is something much different than merely a human with odd habits and pointy ears. An Elf is essentially an alien, a very powerful being who lives very long, and the only reason they are not perceived as dangerous is because they acquired some wisdom through the length of their lives. An Elf should always be something potentially very very dangerous and very good to have on your side, and not some mockey of tree-huggers and flower pickers.

To say it is absurd to have an evil society is just not true. In real life there are evil societies that are real. For whatever reason their beliefs, ideals and way of life is considered evil. Yet they are there. Many may not ever know them nor even know of them but they are real.

I personally like the Dark Elves. They add an special element. At the same time some can choose pull away from their evil ways and if they work hard they can be accepted in other societies. This was the way in EQ and I played a Dark Elf Enchanter and did so. It is a challenge and for the Enchanter a bit easier to accomplish but was fun in the doing.

Elves are magical creatures and although they can be powerful they are very aloof with others. Their hatred for some races runs deep while they will tolerate others.  Many see themselves as superior to others. I love the elf race but I think WoW over did it on the ears. Elves should be beautiful to the eye and the ears should not look like a freak overgrowth. WoW fails on that account with the Night Elf . The Blood Elf if beautiful but the ears look like freakish overgrowth as well. How beautiful can a creature of such long standing history be beautiful with ears that look as though they are mutated.

Elves are not human they are something more magical and beautiful than a human could ever hope to be. Being close to nature and being able to live with and understand the world around them. The forests are their home and where they are one with nature and all that dwells within.

 Elves are very important in a fantasy world but I do not think  they should be playable races.

Reason is that elves are something rare and because they are immortal their skills and knowledge has accumulated during thousands of years rather than tens of years of a regular human. So "leveling" an elf seems just weird since they do not follow the same cycle as other mortals.

Also they are considered a somewhat mythical creature and allowing regular people to play mythical creatures, in the houndreds, takes away their mythical status.

So I am hoping for a fantasy games with elves but not playable ones, like other mythical creatures like dragons.

Originally posted by dhayes68

Originally posted by Flummoxed

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

Any RP minded table-top GM or DM could create a more "fantastic" and unique world that what's being pushed out today.

 

YES!  ABSOLUTELY.  I agree 100%. 

 

Yeah, thats what killed DDO and CO for me. They couldn't hold a candle to the table-top ver we played. The rules and books were a launching point for our GM.

NOT TO MENTION THE FACT THAT AT NO POINT WOULD YOU FINISH AN ADVENTURE ONLY TO GO RIGHT BACK IN AND RUN IT ALL OVER AGAIN WITH THE SAME CHARACTERS!!   THE FIRST HUGE AND I MEAN HUGE MISTAKE ON THE PART OF THE DEVELOPERS.
 

I was very young when I played EQ, around 12 or 13, but I liked the lore around the elves in EQ, it adds a bit more than your Tolkien elves, but I think it set the stage for a LOT of  "elf cliches"

• High elves - City elves with snooty tendancies to all races
• Wood elves - feral cousins of the high elves, more accepting to other reces
• Half elves - usually wood elf/human, very rarely high elf/human, never feels at home in either city
• Dark elves - in EQ, Innoruk(the god of hate) took high elves and corrupted them and viola! Dark elves.

Neverwinter nights had the "Born of evil god" and "born of good god" races also. NWN2 had the Born-of-the-elements races.

Any other game or story capitilze on that, I'm sure they did I just wanna know what.

Originally posted by Kirk68

There was a couple that he answered to but can't remember who they were. Sorry it has been so long I cant remember too many of the details but I remember Puc and he was nasty. Not to be confused with the Movie Midsummernights dream with Stanley Tucci. He was ok but not as dark. Again old fart with lack of memory ;)

The couple he answered to were probably Titania and Oberon, Queen and King of the Faeries.

I actually played Puck in a Concord Player's production of "A Midsummer Night's Dream".

We had one of the actors from Shakespeare and company come out and polish our performances. We ended up adopting a more earthy and savage type of performance over the regular "cute" puck/Elves that you might have seen in the Movie version of the play.

Originally posted by dhayes68

I was up to number 2 when I though "They should put in Elfquest" and then BAM! Number 1 baby!!!! Read those as a teen in their original release. Good stuff. 

My high school girlfriend got me into the elf quest books. I have to say I was hooked. I still need to finish them though I undersant that the creators no longer illustrate them but just write them. I think that is correct.