Originally posted by augustgrace

Unfortunately we have an extremely vocal minority of gamers who don't seem to actually play games anymore, but rather spend their time trying to sink games.

Can you back that statement up as a fact or you just makin stuff up that suits you?

By your "logic" if the people who are unhappy with CO are a vocal minority, then the game should be doing quite well. The servers packed with the silent majority, hmm?

Originally posted by dhayes68

Originally posted by augustgrace

Unfortunately we have an extremely vocal minority of gamers who don't seem to actually play games anymore, but rather spend their time trying to sink games.

Can you back that statement up as a fact or you just makin stuff up that suits you?

By your "logic" if the people who are unhappy with CO are a vocal minority, then the game should be doing quite well. The servers packed with the silent majority, hmm?

 

 

 

CO was always going to be a niche game, they were only aiming for 100k subs.

Originally posted by augustgrace

Originally posted by dhayes68

Originally posted by augustgrace

Unfortunately we have an extremely vocal minority of gamers who don't seem to actually play games anymore, but rather spend their time trying to sink games.

Can you back that statement up as a fact or you just makin stuff up that suits you?

By your "logic" if the people who are unhappy with CO are a vocal minority, then the game should be doing quite well. The servers packed with the silent majority, hmm? 

 CO was always going to be a niche game, they were only aiming for 100k subs. 

Can you back that up?

Cause if thats true, then you're saying they were aiming to make a crappy game, and succeeded.

Originally posted by dhayes68

Originally posted by augustgrace

Originally posted by dhayes68

Originally posted by augustgrace

Unfortunately we have an extremely vocal minority of gamers who don't seem to actually play games anymore, but rather spend their time trying to sink games.

Can you back that statement up as a fact or you just makin stuff up that suits you?

By your "logic" if the people who are unhappy with CO are a vocal minority, then the game should be doing quite well. The servers packed with the silent majority, hmm? 

 CO was always going to be a niche game, they were only aiming for 100k subs. 

Can you back that up?

Cause if thats true, then you're saying they were aiming to make a crappy game, and succeeded.

Why would aiming for 100k subs mean they were intending to make a crappy game?  They were aware they were making a niche game and made a game that could succeed on 100k subs and survive on far less.

Hi guys I know I will be attacked, but the way I see it there is an excessive negative hype machine working againstChampions Online, and since I am a fan of the game I want to help counter that with positive word of mouth.

The thing that CO does well, and the main focus of the gameplay, is the PvE combat and your characters powers, of which you get a total of 14, selected from a 3 tiered classless system. I have never played an MMO with combat as fluent as CO: the majority of the attacks do not have recharge times, and every character can build end/mana, the majority ofpowers allow your char to move while casting, you can use the terrain since line of sight matters, and your char hasthe ability to block, which can also be done so fluently that 1-1 against an AI opponent you can block each of their attacks and defeat them with your attacks in between blocking, using timing and skill. It feels closer to an action game than any other MMO I've played by far, and the open selection of abilities of course makes it much deeper than most action games.  

The good news about the powers is that they are not reskins of each other: anyone who takes the time to make severaldifferent characters will see that different builds play very differently from one another. This has a lot to do with how action based the combat is: think of action games where you pick from a slow, medium, and fast char, and how differently these "reskins" play. Of course, CO adds all the dimensions of RPG combat to the differences between chars, and so again you get something that is much deeper than an action game. 

The bad news about powers is that they are still not totally balanced: the open power selection means that if 10% ofthe powers are better than all the others, as at launch, then every powergamer will take a build with those powers, leaving little variety. By now things are getting better, in that powergamers can select from 30% of the total powerswithout being "gimped" as they would say, and the last power that could really be considered "game busting" in the sense that it trivialized PvE was finally patched away last night. Concluding on balance, it is really not that bad: to use an RTS analogy, CO is like Warhammer40k: dawn of war compared to starcraft/WoW. Having played all 4 of those games, and trying to be neutral, I really think that analogy is accurate. In other words, CO has at no point been unbalanced as badly as the true stinkers of the industry, and this particular misimpression must be countered.

Finally, I can't really defend CO if you want to go beyond combat. The community is small, although the bad reputation for multiplayer mainly comes from PUGing, since the people who do play tend to play very actively, so once you meet people it's all good. Obviously it is not a fantasy game, and this somewhat extends to the focus on powers rather than gear. Gearheads will be disappointed, but when I played (open) Diablo 2, after a few years I started to use item trainers to twink out my chars at all levels but always continued to earn levels and skills, and played that way for quite a while and found it the most fun: I am a skillhead, and CO delivers on this perfectly.  

Just to counter one last myth: CO is not necessarily easy, since a lot of builds that use very fun powers still struggle (difficulty variance goes back to the power balance issue), and it does have an endgame that consists of grinding raids and assorted tasks to earn super items, which while primitive by hardcore standards, is miles ahead of City of Heroes and definitely does allow for significant progression after reaching max level.
 

---

Originally posted by championsFan

and definitely does allow for significant progression after reaching max level.
 

---

 
oh man, I was going to leave this post alone, b/c it's just some one stating their opinion like all others, until the last sentence which is a flat out, bold faced, friggin LIE.  Can you list off the SIGNIFICANT progression? And crafting doesn't count. it's seperate part of MMOGs, not solely associated w/ end game.

Originally posted by augustgrace

I enjoyed CO in beta and still enjoy the game, even bought a life time sub.

Unfortunately we have an extremely vocal minority of gamers who don't seem to actually play games anymore, but rather spend their time trying to sink games. 

There is so much hate directed towards every mmo out right now.  Everyday we see new threads about a game dying, or being on the verge of death, even WoW gets the occassional doom and gloom thread. 

If you like a game play it, don't worry about what someone else thinks of the game, and if you don't like a game don't play it.

There is a huge difference between genuine criticism and blind nerd rage, though that distinction has become a casualty of the internet/mmo boom.  Honestly the best thing that could happen to mmos right now would be for the masses to lose interest in the genre.  The biggest problem with online games now is that the audience is growing and increasingly fragmented, and developers are left frantically scrambling to find something that will cease the endless whining of a generation that feels a great deal of entitlement.

I would like to see a burning off period in which the genre loses the millions that WoW brought in, and mmos to again become the domain of those who genuinely like mmorpgs.

I read CO has an item shop on top of a sub fee, that is the reason I didn't even look at it as an option. Is this true?

Originally posted by Jpizzle

 

---

Originally posted by championsFan

 

and definitely does allow for significant progression after reaching max level.
 
 

---

 

 
oh man, I was going to leave this post alone, b/c it's just some one stating their opinion like all others, until the last sentence which is a flat out, bold faced, friggin LIE.  Can you list off the SIGNIFICANT progression? And crafting doesn't count. it's seperate part of MMOGs, not solely associated w/ end game.

Ok, you're right, I didn't mean to use a term "significant" without giving a context.  Like I said though, significant compared to CoH, but primitive compared to a hardcore gear based game.  And by progression like I said I mean item/gear based, and the best items of most types dont come from crafting (although high level crafting can be powergaming useful for custom things), they come from running lairs and downing legendary villains.

I read CO has an item shop on top of a sub fee, that is the reason I didn't even look at it as an option. Is this true?

No, it's not like that, you can easily play the whole game without using the store and the only thing I used it for was to buy more character slots.  There is a Cryptic store, but they do not and have pledged to never sell gameplay effecting items in the store.  It is really just a nicely implemented version of the scattered services that most MMOs have e.g. character do-overs, char renames, vanity pets, and other cosmetic things related to costumes.  Instead of special offers in our email and special web pages, the C store is more clean and centralized.  Also do-overs and costume slots can be earned in game, the store is for those who want more.  But just as one player to another, I'm trying to say that the C store is totally different in spirit than the item shop that goes with f2p MMOs.  
 

Originally posted by championsFan

I read CO has an item shop on top of a sub fee, that is the reason I didn't even look at it as an option. Is this true?

No, it's not like that, you can easily play the whole game without using the store and the only thing I used it for was to buy more character slots.  There is a Cryptic store, but they do not and have pledged to never sell gameplay effecting items in the store.  It is really just a nicely implemented version of the scattered services that most MMOs have e.g. character do-overs, char renames, vanity pets, and other cosmetic things related to costumes.  Instead of special offers in our email and special web pages, the C store is more clean and centralized.  Also do-overs and costume slots can be earned in game, the store is for those who want more.  But just as one player to another, I'm trying to say that the C store is totally different in spirit than the item shop that goes with f2p MMOs.  
 

Item shop still though, no thanks. I prefer to play one or the other. I don't want to be milked from both. I will not play World of Warcraft, or SOE games now for the same reasons.

Originally posted by augustgrace

Originally posted by dhayes68

Originally posted by augustgrace

Unfortunately we have an extremely vocal minority of gamers who don't seem to actually play games anymore, but rather spend their time trying to sink games.

Can you back that statement up as a fact or you just makin stuff up that suits you?

By your "logic" if the people who are unhappy with CO are a vocal minority, then the game should be doing quite well. The servers packed with the silent majority, hmm?

 

 

 

 

CO was always going to be a niche game, they were only aiming for 100k subs.

 

Do you think Cryptic, Microsoft and Marvel were only aiming for 100k subs when it was originally going to be Marvel Universe Online? Or do you think expectations were scaled back to 100k subs when Marvel and Microsoft pulled out of the project?

Originally posted by Harleyrider

Originally posted by augustgrace

Originally posted by dhayes68

Originally posted by augustgrace

Unfortunately we have an extremely vocal minority of gamers who don't seem to actually play games anymore, but rather spend their time trying to sink games.

Can you back that statement up as a fact or you just makin stuff up that suits you?

By your "logic" if the people who are unhappy with CO are a vocal minority, then the game should be doing quite well. The servers packed with the silent majority, hmm?

 

 

 

 

CO was always going to be a niche game, they were only aiming for 100k subs.

 

Do you think Cryptic, Microsoft and Marvel were only aiming for 100k subs when it was originally going to be Marvel Universe Online? Or do you think expectations were scaled back to 100k subs when Marvel and Microsoft pulled out of the project?

Cryptic has always said from the start that its games will be niche based games. They are targeting the smaller groups of players as opposed to trying to be WoW 2.0

The same thing is going to happen to STO when its released. Its only estimated to get around 100k-250k subscribers.

So yes I imagine Champions Online has always been targeted as a smaller targeted game.  That might have been one of the reasions why Marvel and Microsoft pulled out on there deals with Marvel Universe Online.

Originally posted by augustgrace

Originally posted by dhayes68

Originally posted by augustgrace

Originally posted by dhayes68

Originally posted by augustgrace

Unfortunately we have an extremely vocal minority of gamers who don't seem to actually play games anymore, but rather spend their time trying to sink games.

Can you back that statement up as a fact or you just makin stuff up that suits you?

By your "logic" if the people who are unhappy with CO are a vocal minority, then the game should be doing quite well. The servers packed with the silent majority, hmm? 

 CO was always going to be a niche game, they were only aiming for 100k subs. 

Can you back that up?

Cause if thats true, then you're saying they were aiming to make a crappy game, and succeeded.

Why would aiming for 100k subs mean they were intending to make a crappy game?  They were aware they were making a niche game and made a game that could succeed on 100k subs and survive on far less.

Because given the POTENTIAL amount of subs out there, aiming for 100k means having to screw up.  Besides, you still can't back up your claim that their goal was a niche game of 100k subs.

Because given the POTENTIAL amount of subs out there, aiming for 100k means having to screw up.  Besides, you still can't back up your claim that their goal was a niche game of 100k subs.

City of Heroes / City of Villains is the only other superhero MMO, and it has 150k subs at new content peaks.  
 

Cryptic was forced to sell the CoX franchise when the Marvel Online project was canceled.  Of course they wanted to get back into the superhero MMO market that they created.  With CoX still alive, and DCUO on its way, 100k is/was a good honest target for CO.  You talk about some (typographically) capitalized potential for subs, but I don't think you are basing this on the proven existing market for superhero MMOs.

I have a state-of-the-art SLI setup comp and due to the latest Nov patches the gamne runs like shit.  It used to run so smoothly that I didn't worry about anything at very  high resolutions.  I have another computer with identical stats that also runs just this game poorly, and I still run other new games (even online ones) very well.  I don't know what Cryptic did to fuck it up but it is annoying.

I have no confidence in them.  The management decisions have been beyond bad (publicizing lifetimes and then retracting offer and then reinstating offer, only 2 days a week beta playing, no stress testing at all during beta, completely changing game upon launch, ridiculous holiday events where you have to complete over a dozen instances each on an hour timer only to be retracted later) and I wonder what the hell they are thinking.  I will certainly not buy STO until they give some indication that they have the remotest idea what the hell they are doing.

I couldn't care less. I had big expectations after City of Heroes but they managed to trump it. CO is nothing but a lackluster singleplayer game with a chat feature. There's no sense of community whatsoever. No team oriented content. It's just a fucking boring. Don't even get me started on Star Trek Online. I got invited into the beta recently. Touched it once. Never again.

I can't believe that piece of crap is supposed to continue the legacy of Star Trek. That's all i will say.

What a sad affair.

Actually what is needed is a dramatic and radical new approach to content, all of the additions to date are simply perpetuating the same basic problems.

New zones will achieve nothing unless the design appraoch is markedly different from everything seen to date, Canada still has the stale feel of the Desert Zone in white, MI still feels like the desert reskinned with vegetation and Lemuria is still just MI underwater - these are messy, confined, lifeless and unconvincing on every important level. 

Reskining enemies as Nemesis's drones or increasing the presence of your well designed Nemesis still equates to dealing with the same dismal and generic npc's the game has been throwing around since level 1 and yet more 'Do X of Y' Drivel. Not only are world mechanics severely limited but there total lack of imagination in how they are employed and an apparent lack of interest in attempting to offer any illusion of worth.

PvP has no reason to expand or engage new players unless it changes enough to form an integral partnership with the theme (ie playble villains and capers to thwart)...again it needs to offer some illusion of value or point that it really mattters and isn't just  a pointless game within an equally pointless game.

Adding more powers to an already bewildering array of abilities, all of which in real terms resolve to 1 and the same solitary purpose, weilded by one and the same soliary mechinc will achieve nothing. Again there needs to be some variety of application of powers, some variety of responce or reaction or consequence some dynamic and palpable point to picking one powerset over another, some variety in enemy ai in response to powers, some element of response to playstyle...anything in fact that actually makes the powers feel different from one another.

In fact all of the additions listed in this article could be delivered en masse and it would not expand the games appeal or improve the experience one iota, because in its present state all the existing content apppeals to one very narrow aspect of mmo-appeal (avatar love - a dangerous play indulgence of false pride in itself) and is fundamentally failing to address anything that could broaden or deepen the appeal or variety of the overall experience.

The two key problems with CO remain the limited/ restrictive mechanics of the game-world (or at least the imagination employed in how it is implemented) and the complete lack of consistency and conviction in the comicbook theme, these are fundamental design faults dating back to the games very conception that drive a stake through its heart leaving only a profoundly souless and sterile experience to survive.

Originally posted by TwwIX

I got invited into the beta recently. Touched it once. Never again.

I can't believe that piece of crap is supposed to continue the legacy of Star Trek. That's all i will say.

What a sad affair.

Ha. Same here. I played about 5 hours total since invited in Oct. It's a mess. Boring on Rails Online is what Cryptic should just call all their games. I can't wait for Atari to shut them down and laugh at their pathedic attemts at creating games.

Originally posted by augustgrace

Originally posted by dhayes68

Originally posted by augustgrace

Unfortunately we have an extremely vocal minority of gamers who don't seem to actually play games anymore, but rather spend their time trying to sink games.

Can you back that statement up as a fact or you just makin stuff up that suits you?

By your "logic" if the people who are unhappy with CO are a vocal minority, then the game should be doing quite well. The servers packed with the silent majority, hmm?

 

 

 

 

CO was always going to be a niche game, they were only aiming for 100k subs.

 

I doubt that now, 3 months after launch, they have anywhere near 100k subs.

It was probably always going to be niche because it's a superhero game, whether that was their goal or not.  They're only kidding themselves if they think anyone is going to buy a big IP like Star Trek was always intended to be a niche game when they try selling that excuse when STO flops.

I don't know exactly who said it, I'm thinking Roper or Emmert, but I can't say for sure, but the context of the 100k subscribers comment was in regard to the question of how many minimum subscribers would they need to consider the game profitable, and thus a success. The gist of the response was not that they were aiming for 100k, just that they needed that many at least in order to keep things rolling along.

That being said, I am a lifetime subscriber, I play the game regularly and enjoy it. However, I am very disappointed with the repetitive nature of the game.  In addition, the fact that you can see how many players are in each zone gives you a rough estimate of how many are playing at any given time. Trust me, unless there are a bunch of uncounted players in these zones or in the tutorial or PvP (and I can't imagine they add up to a whole lot) it DOES NOT look good. The Developers need to do something and they need to do it fast. For starters, they need to put the nerf bat in the vault and leave it there until they get some content and fun into the game.

The fact that there are only 5 zones in the entire game makes each run with an alt an exercise in repetive motion. In the higher levels this is a real issue, for example, If you don't like a particular zone (I do not like Lemuria, the underwater zone) you are basically out of luck because you will never have enough content to level if you skip a zone.

The long and short of it is this: the game was released way to early and now the devs are playing catch up. Problem is, by the time they get there, they may be the only ones there.