Originally posted by Hyanmen

Originally posted by Goronian

Maybe the games need to separate their "solo" and "grouping" aspects more, than they already do? Sets of harder missions, with ripe rewards, that can only be performed solo?

Going forward with that idea, we could make gear (in gear-dependent gears) or skills (in solo ones, obviously) be solo- or group-oriented? Solo gear and skills would directly enhance your performace, but grouping skills/gear, would benefir your group more, than they do yourself? Stronger group heals, better taunting ability? WoW does this, to an extent, as far, as I'm aware, though, so I might be on a wrong track.

Yes, thats what I've had in mind as well. Actually, I'd just do it to the extreme and separate the two aspects to whole different games altogether.

Solo players would benefit more if the developers focused solo aspects of the game and group players vice versa, without one coming to the way of the other. No more "level to cap solo, then raid with a group" problems.

Problem is - the content in a "solo-only" game would dry out pretty fast, while the "group-oriented" game could fail to fid it's audience, or meet the publisher's standards.

Originally posted by Goronian

 

Problem is - the content in a "solo-only" game would dry out pretty fast, while the "group-oriented" game could fail to fid it's audience, or meet the publisher's standards.

Could you explain why do you think those things you mentioned might happen?

Why do I have to justify my playstyle to you, OP?  You like single player focus.  I like group focus.  In a game that is focused on group stuff, solo content suffers.  In a game that is focused on solo content, group stuff suffers.  There has never been a game that did both well at the same time.  I like group-based games better.  Obviously, the game that I would most enjoy is one you would hate.  So let's not play together, and you can stop with this fake holier than thou crap.

Originally posted by Hyanmen

Originally posted by Goronian

 

Problem is - the content in a "solo-only" game would dry out pretty fast, while the "group-oriented" game could fail to fid it's audience, or meet the publisher's standards.

Could you explain why do you think those things you mentioned might happen?

Unless you atificially lengthen the game with even more tedious grind (or make it a sandbox) you, invariably, will face a point, where a huge chunk of players, have done most of the content in a few months and now don't know what to do. Just like it happened to Cahampions Online, for example. People soloed to the cap in two weeks, there wasn't anything at the mythical"endgame" and voila, you have a problem. Some more grouping content spread over the levels could've really helped.

On the other hand, we have games, that focus heavily on grouping. We may like them, or hate them, but we don't matter, since publishers are not aiming at us. They, most likely, wouldn't support such a project, and even if they did, it wouldn't attract an audience past say 20k member (depends on the actual game). Now, those are good numbers, but they still pale in comparsion to WoW and unless the game is deliberately niche, lots of publishers could deem it a failure and close it down. Look at Final Fantasy XI (which is awesome) - probably the only IP, actually stronger, than Warcraft (at least in the gaming world) and people still jump to the latter, if only because it suits their playstyle more.

Originally posted by Athcear

Why do I have to justify my playstyle to you, OP?  You like single player focus.  I like group focus.  In a game that is focused on group stuff, solo content suffers.  In a game that is focused on solo content, group stuff suffers.  There has never been a game that did both well at the same time.  I like group-based games better.  Obviously, the game that I would most enjoy is one you would hate.  So let's not play together, and you can stop with this fake holier than thou crap.

In fact, there are NO MMO's outthere where you get end level gear soloing. So your whole reply here is just nonsense, since ALL the MMO's favor grouping. You (already) have it all, I have none. I pay my subscription fee, and I want it too. If I dont like what is handed to me from the MMO, I just move on. Game developers have started to to understand this, eventually, and we will see it all be handed more & more to us soloers, as we are definately the biggest force of money outthere. It all began with World of Warcraft.

Originally posted by chrisel

Originally posted by Athcear

Why do I have to justify my playstyle to you, OP?  You like single player focus.  I like group focus.  In a game that is focused on group stuff, solo content suffers.  In a game that is focused on solo content, group stuff suffers.  There has never been a game that did both well at the same time.  I like group-based games better.  Obviously, the game that I would most enjoy is one you would hate.  So let's not play together, and you can stop with this fake holier than thou crap.

 

In fact, there are NO MMO's outthere where you get end level gear soloing. So your whole reply here is just nonsense, since ALL the MMO's favor grouping. You (already) have it all, I have none. I pay my subscription fee, and I want it too. If I dont like what is handed to me from the MMO, I just move on. Game developers have started to to understand this, eventually, and we will see it all be handed more & more to us soloers, as we are definately the biggest force of money outthere. It all began with World of Warcraft.

 

CO's catering to solo market was what ultimately killed the game, since there was barely a thing to do, after you soloed all the content. Did that help?

Originally posted by Goronian

Originally posted by chrisel

Originally posted by Athcear

Why do I have to justify my playstyle to you, OP?  You like single player focus.  I like group focus.  In a game that is focused on group stuff, solo content suffers.  In a game that is focused on solo content, group stuff suffers.  There has never been a game that did both well at the same time.  I like group-based games better.  Obviously, the game that I would most enjoy is one you would hate.  So let's not play together, and you can stop with this fake holier than thou crap.

 

In fact, there are NO MMO's outthere where you get end level gear soloing. So your whole reply here is just nonsense, since ALL the MMO's favor grouping. You (already) have it all, I have none. I pay my subscription fee, and I want it too. If I dont like what is handed to me from the MMO, I just move on. Game developers have started to to understand this, eventually, and we will see it all be handed more & more to us soloers, as we are definately the biggest force of money outthere. It all began with World of Warcraft.

 

CO's catering to solo market was what ultimately killed the game, since there was barely a thing to do, after you soloed all the content. Did that help?

So, after you have grouped all the content then...? Whats the difference...?

You could certainly develop a system where the extra rewards for grouping where only given to your guild, in terms of guild points used for building the guild fortress or whatever. Or they could yield points for buffs in pvp scenarios where you are automatically in a team when you start anyway.

That’s a point, what do you solo guys do about mini games? Like in WAR where you automatically get put in a team? Do you not play them, or do you put up with the awfulness of actually working in a team? :D

WAR sucks, so I dont play it. Awful game. Another failure of MMO.

Originally posted by chrisel

WAR sucks, so I dont play it. Awful game. Another failure of MMO.

You're starting to sound like Zorndorf.  Cut it out.

Originally posted by Goronian

Originally posted by chrisel

WAR sucks, so I dont play it. Awful game. Another failure of MMO.

You're starting to sound like Zorndorf.  Cut it out.

No. You cut it out. I am perfectly allowed to say just as I feel about that game. It is my personal meaning, and it stands. Now back to topic please.

Originally posted by chrisel

Originally posted by Athcear

Why do I have to justify my playstyle to you, OP?  You like single player focus.  I like group focus.  In a game that is focused on group stuff, solo content suffers.  In a game that is focused on solo content, group stuff suffers.  There has never been a game that did both well at the same time.  I like group-based games better.  Obviously, the game that I would most enjoy is one you would hate.  So let's not play together, and you can stop with this fake holier than thou crap.

 

In fact, there are NO MMO's outthere where you get end level gear soloing. So your whole reply here is just nonsense, since ALL the MMO's favor grouping. You (already) have it all, I have none. I pay my subscription fee, and I want it too. If I dont like what is handed to me from the MMO, I just move on. Game developers have started to to understand this, eventually, and we will see it all be handed more & more to us soloers, as we are definately the biggest force of money outthere. It all began with World of Warcraft.

 

Grouping and raiding are generally considered two different things.

A group can be just two players, often called a duo.

A raid is made up of multiple groups.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by chrisel

Originally posted by Athcear

Why do I have to justify my playstyle to you, OP?  You like single player focus.  I like group focus.  In a game that is focused on group stuff, solo content suffers.  In a game that is focused on solo content, group stuff suffers.  There has never been a game that did both well at the same time.  I like group-based games better.  Obviously, the game that I would most enjoy is one you would hate.  So let's not play together, and you can stop with this fake holier than thou crap.

 

In fact, there are NO MMO's outthere where you get end level gear soloing. So your whole reply here is just nonsense, since ALL the MMO's favor grouping. You (already) have it all, I have none. I pay my subscription fee, and I want it too. If I dont like what is handed to me from the MMO, I just move on. Game developers have started to to understand this, eventually, and we will see it all be handed more & more to us soloers, as we are definately the biggest force of money outthere. It all began with World of Warcraft.

 

 

Grouping and raiding are generally considered two different things.

A group can be just two players, often called a duo.

A raid is made up of multiple groups.

Raiding is killing mobs in a larger group. Same thing. Better loots for groups, discriminating soloers.

I like to group in game but lets tell it the way it is...

EQ and FF XI were the only MMOs that were released group heavy.  EQ2 was mixed for a while.  Now even EQ is a solo friendly quest driven MMO.  The days of group forced game play are done because they don't work in an MMO that can't keep a healthy low level pop.  DAoC, AC, UO, AO, AC2, CoX, WoW... solo friendly right out of the box.

Even WoW that was mostly solo top world realised this and changed what little group content above land to solo a few years back.  But yes groups can do solo content together.  But it won't be blue... it'll be 3+ levels above them and yes they'll steam roll it.  But its fun and more rewarding than soling -3 content, no?

I expect FF XIV to be solo friendly as well since the bulk of the FF XI crowd isn't going to move over and they need to attract new subs.

Originally posted by Goronian

CO's catering to solo market was what ultimately killed the game, since there was barely a thing to do, after you soloed all the content. Did that help?

Cater to solo?  Every map has multiple group public quests, every map has group required instances, end game is group dailies and now it varies with the bosses being whoever you went in with's nemisis.  Sounds like a lot of group content out of the box to me.

Now did players do any of it... another story ;)

I'd say the problem is few players take their time to explore a game and just bumb rush the end game.  Kind of similar to playing a single player game and ploughing through the main story then bitching about how small the game is ala Fallout 3 :P

Originally posted by Goronian

Unless you atificially lengthen the game with even more tedious grind (or make it a sandbox) you, invariably, will face a point, where a huge chunk of players, have done most of the content in a few months and now don't know what to do. Just like it happened to Cahampions Online, for example. People soloed to the cap in two weeks, there wasn't anything at the mythical"endgame" and voila, you have a problem. Some more grouping content spread over the levels could've really helped.

On the other hand, we have games, that focus heavily on grouping. We may like them, or hate them, but we don't matter, since publishers are not aiming at us. They, most likely, wouldn't support such a project, and even if they did, it wouldn't attract an audience past say 20k member (depends on the actual game). Now, those are good numbers, but they still pale in comparsion to WoW and unless the game is deliberately niche, lots of publishers could deem it a failure and close it down. Look at Final Fantasy XI (which is awesome) - probably the only IP, actually stronger, than Warcraft (at least in the gaming world) and people still jump to the latter, if only because it suits their playstyle more.

There is a happy medium, but the developers need to change their mindset if they want to reach it.

You can make the grind take as long as possible, as long as there is always something new and exciting on the reach. Say, if the combat system was complex enough and you got a new combat system every 5 levels to try out, it wouldn't get as boring. You also would have to flesh out the low-midgame with events and other diverse stuff that would keep players playing even if the road to level cap would be longer than usual.

FFXI is a bad example of what a grouping game could really be like, because it isn't really a fair comparison to make. XI is very hardcore, very slow, and very unfriendly to new players. If a company (SE?!) made a new IP that had the same grouping aspect as XI, but this time more casual, you bet the 500k of XI would become 5 millions. It's not the grouping aspect that makes players go away, it's all the other things in XI that destory the game for them. 

Originally posted by chrisel  

Game developers have started to to understand this, eventually, and we will see it all be handed more & more to us soloers, as we are definately the biggest force of money outthere.

A working example of this happening in a game would be roughly 24 hours from now in LOTRO when the Siege of Mirkwood expansion pack launches and the Skirmish System (specifically the Skirmish rewards) goes live.

Developer Diary outlining the Skirmish Reward system:

http://www.lotro.com/gameinfo/devdiaries/514-developer-diary-som-skirmishes-rewards 

One paragraph of that developer diary entry states:

Solo VS. Group

Ah, the age old MMO debate. I'd prefer not to spend too much time here, as it can strike up a war as brutal as Vi vs. Emacs. With Skirmishes, we have decided to make all rewards in the entire system available to all fellowship play sizes. However, the costs of rewards will be different based on what play size you participate in. This difference is regulated by the level/size tokens mentioned above. A particular Legendary Item blank may require a token that can be only found in 6 and 12-man Skirmishes. However, the Curiosities vendor has the ability to upgrade small group Marks into large group Marks. This upgrade will cost a chunk of SM, but means that any player can eventually purchase any reward in the system.

/drool!!

I was not expecting this from LOTRO. I am playing this game, and it seems that this game FINALLY start to fulfill its potential. Now, we will see what it will bring to the pvp side in the future... If Codemaster decide to hand out more pvp content, maybe even let create "evil" content in larger scale than today, this could take a huge chunk from the WoW customer base.

I am very picky when it comes to my terms of what I see as a success or a failure of MMO releases. LOTRO is by far one of the best. Well, more solo friendly LOTRO is like a song in my ears! :)

I enjoy LOTRO as well. I solo a lot but sometimes enjoy grouping with my Kinship. IMO if a game is going to include group content it should do it from level one. People, myself included, who solo for say, 30 levels are sometimes  unclear of their role in a group. I know myself, when i played WOW i soloed my hunter most of the way to level cap and had spells that would be helpful to a group that werent even on my action bar. Where as later with my Priest, at the time always in demand, I did a lot of group content early on and knew what to do and was, while far from an expert, at least a decent healer even in shadow spec. 

Even wow encouraged grouping.  If you wanted to do a dungeon for good gear you grouped.  period.  Some people are offended though if people are allowed to solo outdoors content from 1 to max level.