Originally posted by Suraknar

While some of the core Ideas you have I agree with, such as MMORPG's should aim for Social opportunities and the social aspect playing a bigger role in their gameplay, I do not agree with the conclusions.

In my view, there is a conflict which resides somewhere in the middle between Game design and Marketing.

From one hand Designers make Themepark games, which and by their nature cannot appeal to all, and will only appeal to some.

And on the other hand Marketing is successfully inviting all to play them.

The result is that within the first 3 to 6 months there is a dramatic drop of subscriptions as all kinds of people realise that this is not a game that appeals to them in practice no matter how great the marketing made it sound in the beggining.

Of course, there is exceptions to this like there are exceptions to everything in life, and in this case the exception is Blizzard's WoW, it was just fortunate that its following made the leap to the MMORPG genre and through it a snow ball effect of popularity happened which reached the existing MMORPG playerbase as well. Yet lets not forget that WoW introduced a bigger number of new players to the genre than there was player of the genre at the time as well. And all these new players will not move to a clone of WoW.

So in my opinion trying to make a clone of it, can only be futile...loss of time and loss of investment.

I think the Devs should go back and rethink the approach from the beginning. What is that which popularised the genre in the first place?

A Themepark Game or a Virtual World?

There is no reason to see WoW as the enemy.  They are, almost single-handedly, bringing in millions upon millions of people into the MMO genre. Many of whom would probably be happy to leave and try something else if there was something out there worth trying.

WoW is the gateway drug which all game developers should be thrilled exists.

So while you don't have to make a "WoW clone" to succeed, you do need to figure out what need of the customer WoW is filling, and keep that in mind when you design any new game.

And you can't look back to try to recreate the Ultima Online days. The market is way too different. Developers should try to figure out what people who aren't playing MMOs like, what rewards they want for investing their time in something like an MMO, and figure out how to create an experience that meets their needs.

Growing the customer base betters the chances for niche games.

You also need to be realistic about what prevents people from joining MMOs to begin with, what is essentially holding back the growth of the genre. I firmly believe the limiter is PvP.

PvP is, at it's most basic, one paying customer having a huge amount of fun at the expense of another paying customer. In any PvP game there are always going to be a small number of twitchy players who will make huge time investments to learn every in, out, glitch, build, etc. to become dominant PvPers. That's great for them and kudos for the effort. But you need to realize that for everyone else who plays casually, the result is decreased enjoyment.

So I feel that while PvP-focused games have their niche, there is a fatal flaw in their design from a customer-experience point of view. Most regular folks have neither the time nor the inclination to invest all the time and effort that it takes to become a dominant PvPer. As such, any PvP game is going to have limited appeal as players learn that they really just can't compete and move on.

Originally posted by PhelimReagh

Originally posted by Suraknar

While some of the core Ideas you have I agree with, such as MMORPG's should aim for Social opportunities and the social aspect playing a bigger role in their gameplay, I do not agree with the conclusions.

In my view, there is a conflict which resides somewhere in the middle between Game design and Marketing.

From one hand Designers make Themepark games, which and by their nature cannot appeal to all, and will only appeal to some.

And on the other hand Marketing is successfully inviting all to play them.

The result is that within the first 3 to 6 months there is a dramatic drop of subscriptions as all kinds of people realise that this is not a game that appeals to them in practice no matter how great the marketing made it sound in the beggining.

Of course, there is exceptions to this like there are exceptions to everything in life, and in this case the exception is Blizzard's WoW, it was just fortunate that its following made the leap to the MMORPG genre and through it a snow ball effect of popularity happened which reached the existing MMORPG playerbase as well. Yet lets not forget that WoW introduced a bigger number of new players to the genre than there was player of the genre at the time as well. And all these new players will not move to a clone of WoW.

So in my opinion trying to make a clone of it, can only be futile...loss of time and loss of investment.

I think the Devs should go back and rethink the approach from the beginning. What is that which popularised the genre in the first place?

A Themepark Game or a Virtual World?

 

There is no reason to see WoW as the enemy.  They are, almost single-handedly, bringing in millions upon millions of people into the MMO genre. Many of whom would probably be happy to leave and try something else if there was something out there worth trying.

 

WoW is the gateway drug which all game developers should be thrilled exists.

 

So while you don't have to make a "WoW clone" to succeed, you do need to figure out what need of the customer WoW is filling, and keep that in mind when you design any new game.

 

And you can't look back to try to recreate the Ultima Online days. The market is way too different. Developers should try to figure out what people who aren't playing MMOs like, what rewards they want for investing their time in something like an MMO, and figure out how to create an experience that meets their needs.

 

Growing the customer base betters the chances for niche games.

 

You also need to be realistic about what prevents people from joining MMOs to begin with, what is essentially holding back the growth of the genre. I firmly believe the limiter is PvP.

 

PvP is, at it's most basic, one paying customer having a huge amount of fun at the expense of another paying customer. In any PvP game there are always going to be a small number of twitchy players who will make huge time investments to learn every in, out, glitch, build, etc. to become dominant PvPers. That's great for them and kudos for the effort. But you need to realize that for everyone else who plays casually, the result is decreased enjoyment.

 

So I feel that while PvP-focused games have their niche, there is a fatal flaw in their design from a customer-experience point of view. Most regular folks have neither the time nor the inclination to invest all the time and effort that it takes to become a dominant PvPer. As such, any PvP game is going to have limited appeal as players learn that they really just can't compete and move on.

Well stated. You make an excellent point in regards to PvP.  I've been playing MMO's since UO. Its been my observation that PvP tends(as a rule, not an absolute) to attract the more personally competitive types of gamers. I know I went through that phase for a while at the start. But always being *ON* and having to look over ones shoulder gets VERY tiring after awhile. Especially in games with mid to harsh PvP death penalties.  After awhile it becomes more of a chore, than entertainment, so I move on to other games that have PvE servers.  Not everyone is going to be King of the Hill in PvP. Lord knows I'm not very good at MMO PvP.

PvP also tends to make Dev's lazy. Look at any number of Asian grind/gankfests as an example.  If their players are providing much of the games content, they don't have to spend time/money in creating it.  Which is also why so many Asian games seldom go over that well in the west.  Corps like NCsoft can't seem to comprehend that the grind/gankfest template that works so well in Asia, doesn't work nearly that well in the west. 

Great read :)

Yup was one of those long standing PS players, but had to stop after the merger that moved the servers just a little too far from NZ, could handle when they where west coast based, as my ping was under 200.

Would love to see them release a more up to date version, as it's one of my longest standing subs I've ever had, plus I think it's one of the few MMO's where I belonged to a good stong clan (WCG).

"Dungeons & Dragons Online recently revamped its business model to one based on a combination of traditional subscriptions or a free-to-play option with microtransactions to generate revenue."

Ofc a member of the bought mmorpg.com crew defend the F2P crap game genre.

Sure i thought D&D was a good game at launch, but in a longer term didn't live up to my standard in games. Now that they've become free2play i wish I've never put my eyes on it from start.  I'm just glad they're not supporting goldseller, powerlvler and boters like most of the f2p crap games do in one way or another.

Originally posted by SioBabble

Originally posted by Hagonbok

 

 

Then we have games like Darkfall, where apparently the company bought into the rhetoric of the wannabe gaming intelligentsia at various sites (including this one at times), and on the various forums/blogs on a lot of those sites (including this one at times), about having the games hearken back to the early days. The problem is that all these flapping lips seem to forget, or conveniently fail to mention, that there was a good reason why most of those elements fell to the wayside eventually. Most people didn't like them back then, and just because these people remember those things fondly isn't going to make enough others like them now.

 

I think that we are going to again see some big numbers for some upcoming games, but it'll be the games that make darn sure they have a full game experience at release that's relatively bug free, and offer the players what they are showing they like in what they're playing already. As opposed to thinking they know better what players will like.

 

Absolutely agree. 

One of the interesting things about veterans (and I'm talking RL military veterans) is that over beers at the VFW hall they seem to remember the good times and not the bad.  Which is understandable.  They don't talk about how half their platoon was cut in half but they'll talk about the celebration of the victory and forget the cost of it.

So it is with PvP nostalgia for old time MMO players.

SOE in particular is unwilling to examine why WoW was such a success, because SOE doesn't do polish and relatively bug free gameplay.  They're not publishing games and making some money at it, they're trying to make money by publishing games.

Oh fucking HELL!

Just because WoW had success, and that maybe the WoW-subgenre people MIGHT not like fantasy simulations, that is, HARD and challenging games that don't give instant rewards, doesn't mean that they can't have success, i BET there's millions of people that are waiting for a NEW GOOD UO GAME(ofc im one of those).... the WoW community doesn't make for the whole of the MMO community, it's IMO only the slice of casual gamers, who like non-challenging games.

The only "good reason" why those elements(of UO) were put aside is that the new MMO's are addressed to kids! SWG was a UO type of game, and everyone loved it, and until SWG, the MMO community was composed of mature players. Now i can bet my own neck the majority of MMO players are 14 year olds.

The part in orange text is stating that the genre of MMO is doomed to see only childish clones forever and that we must even be happy about it. They're saying that MMO's can only have ONE single type of gameplay because there's no room for anything else. He's also stating in that part that big sales equals to quality. He's saying that companies should give players what they like and not tell them what they like, but this person NOW is assuming what people like, because even though 11 million persons are playing WoW, it doesn't necessarily mean that they CAN'T enjoy a UO game, it's THIS person that's FORCING this conclusion, assuming what the players like based only on what HE chooses to see. And lastly He's ignoring both the "potential" gamers(those who aren't playing anything atm) AND the minority players like me who want UO type of online simulations, telling me to keep away from MMO's.

well fuck me, honestly that person should be hanged.

Me, I just subscribe to whatever games I happen to be playing a lot of at the time and cancel the subscriptions when I get bored.  Perfect idea for a MMO, in my opinion, is a GTA or Mafia style game.  I know APB is coming out in March, but I do not really see that being overly successful(good idea, but who is going to want to play as a cop).  Another idea would be a well made spy MMO, which I do hope Sony pulls off with The Agency(I have not figured out if this is even going to be a MMO), though I doubt they will.   Once you abandon the light and start taking a walk on the dark side, there are plenty of good options.

 Gylfi, you forget the 30 year olds that still live in their mother's basements who don't bother to work or have a life outside the internet and gaming.  Can't forget them.

Very well written and interesting article :-)

I wonder if the mmos genre would be healthier if world of warcraft didnt exist

There is a severe lack of innovation since wow and most companies are looking at wow and thinks "oh, that game is selling alot, we should make something similiar" instead of making something new.

Wow is to big for the good of the mmo genre future

Is there any game that could compete with wow? i doubt SW:TOR will, but it might kill some smaller ones like Darkfall, AoC and maybe Lotro

DaoC2 might do it if they ever make a sequal

 I'm not sure what would beat WoW, i'm not into chiromancy but a realistic multi-faceted sci-fi simulation would have an enormous success.

A sci-fi version of UO, realistic and simulative in all its content, which ironically is what UO2 looked like back then in the infamous video.

A complete simulation, a neuromancer online... and not just an online game with neuromancer themes and gimmicks, but exactly what a society of the neuromancer would be if it were REAL.

It's really gratifying to me that you still have a soft spot, as do I, for PlanetSide....I couldn't agree more that it was and is unique and among the very finest MMO experiences ever concieved...

The first time you popped over a ridgeline on your ATV or Thresher or Mosquito and were confronted with HUNDREDS of people stretching as far as the eye could see in every direction from horizon to horizon, all merrily murdering each other as infantry, armor, infiltrator, and air power...Your life as a gamer was irrevocably changed.

The old game misses you, Spork...I wish you were still a part of it. You GOT it......

Originally posted by Wraithone

Originally posted by PhelimReagh

Originally posted by Suraknar

While some of the core Ideas you have I agree with, such as MMORPG's should aim for Social opportunities and the social aspect playing a bigger role in their gameplay, I do not agree with the conclusions.

In my view, there is a conflict which resides somewhere in the middle between Game design and Marketing.

From one hand Designers make Themepark games, which and by their nature cannot appeal to all, and will only appeal to some.

And on the other hand Marketing is successfully inviting all to play them.

The result is that within the first 3 to 6 months there is a dramatic drop of subscriptions as all kinds of people realise that this is not a game that appeals to them in practice no matter how great the marketing made it sound in the beggining.

Of course, there is exceptions to this like there are exceptions to everything in life, and in this case the exception is Blizzard's WoW, it was just fortunate that its following made the leap to the MMORPG genre and through it a snow ball effect of popularity happened which reached the existing MMORPG playerbase as well. Yet lets not forget that WoW introduced a bigger number of new players to the genre than there was player of the genre at the time as well. And all these new players will not move to a clone of WoW.

So in my opinion trying to make a clone of it, can only be futile...loss of time and loss of investment.

I think the Devs should go back and rethink the approach from the beginning. What is that which popularised the genre in the first place?

A Themepark Game or a Virtual World?

 

There is no reason to see WoW as the enemy.  They are, almost single-handedly, bringing in millions upon millions of people into the MMO genre. Many of whom would probably be happy to leave and try something else if there was something out there worth trying.

 

WoW is the gateway drug which all game developers should be thrilled exists.

 

So while you don't have to make a "WoW clone" to succeed, you do need to figure out what need of the customer WoW is filling, and keep that in mind when you design any new game.

 

And you can't look back to try to recreate the Ultima Online days. The market is way too different. Developers should try to figure out what people who aren't playing MMOs like, what rewards they want for investing their time in something like an MMO, and figure out how to create an experience that meets their needs.

 

Growing the customer base betters the chances for niche games.

 

You also need to be realistic about what prevents people from joining MMOs to begin with, what is essentially holding back the growth of the genre. I firmly believe the limiter is PvP.

 

PvP is, at it's most basic, one paying customer having a huge amount of fun at the expense of another paying customer. In any PvP game there are always going to be a small number of twitchy players who will make huge time investments to learn every in, out, glitch, build, etc. to become dominant PvPers. That's great for them and kudos for the effort. But you need to realize that for everyone else who plays casually, the result is decreased enjoyment.

 

So I feel that while PvP-focused games have their niche, there is a fatal flaw in their design from a customer-experience point of view. Most regular folks have neither the time nor the inclination to invest all the time and effort that it takes to become a dominant PvPer. As such, any PvP game is going to have limited appeal as players learn that they really just can't compete and move on.

 

Well stated. You make an excellent point in regards to PvP.  I've been playing MMO's since UO. Its been my observation that PvP tends(as a rule, not an absolute) to attract the more personally competitive types of gamers. I know I went through that phase for a while at the start. But always being *ON* and having to look over ones shoulder gets VERY tiring after awhile. Especially in games with mid to harsh PvP death penalties.  After awhile it becomes more of a chore, than entertainment, so I move on to other games that have PvE servers.  Not everyone is going to be King of the Hill in PvP. Lord knows I'm not very good at MMO PvP.

PvP also tends to make Dev's lazy. Look at any number of Asian grind/gankfests as an example.  If their players are providing much of the games content, they don't have to spend time/money in creating it.  Which is also why so many Asian games seldom go over that well in the west.  Corps like NCsoft can't seem to comprehend that the grind/gankfest template that works so well in Asia, doesn't work nearly that well in the west. 

I do not see WoW as the enemy, I see WoW as the BEST ever Themepark game, when it launched it put on the floor all of the Themepark Competition, i was playing Lineage II at the time I saw people by the thousands jumping Ship!

I left Lineage II but not for WoW, I went to SWG (returning to it), and would have still be playing it if it were not for NGE..at that point we all decided (My guildies etc), to give WoW a try.

Compared to a Sandbox, or Virtual World if you prefer game such as UO WoW is a shallow one, however, it is the best Themepark game there is, I really see no reason why play another themepark when one has a Character of two in WoW already.

The irony here is that, what I liked the most in WoW was its PvP, I really like howthey implemented it and it been very fun to fight in battlegrounds, most of our guild reached ranks of Marshal and above, with the old Honor System, before Burning Crusade, however, that system was a killer, I am glad they did change it and we continued to PvP still.

In all honnesty, I do not agree with the comments made towards PvP in MMORPG's...I would not be able to play an MMORPG that does not feature PvP in some type of Form or Shape.

I really see no reason to pay a subscription in order to play an offline game Online and interact with NPC's amongst other PC's instead of Interacting and adventuring with other PCs.

Some will say the inverse, and call Planetside an online counterstrike. I guess the answer here lies in between, because whether an MMORPG is Sandbox, Themepark or RvR it has to cater to a broad spectrum of activities. Human beings are not robots while we can focus and repeat one single thing over and over when we set an achievement goal, we cannot repeat that process too many times in a row, we need to be able to do something different and come back to the original activity.

If it were not for PvP and RP-PvP servers in WOW I would have dropped the game in a week...while I did experience its PVE once at least one very Raid and Dungeon (as well as doing some attunements) all this was done in times of pause from PvP.

So again WOW is not the enemy, but, anyone trying to make a clone of it and follow on its paradigm will lose anyways.