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Originally posted by lightning597 This is when you go to your local electronics store and buy a logitech dual action gamepad, its a replica of a ps2 controller for the pc. Problem solved. They are also cheap like 15-20 bucks, I've had one for years and it still works fine. |
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Originally posted by Scyris This is when you go to your local electronics store and buy a logitech dual action gamepad, its a replica of a ps2 controller for the pc. Problem solved. They are also cheap like 15-20 bucks, I've had one for years and it still works fine.
I got a PS2 to USB adapter and just use my dualshock 2... Actually, currently I use my dualshock 3 over bluetooth. But that's me. |
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Originally posted by ic0n67
WWYMUAAFAPYJMU?TYDSLTWTPIWKOYUIMTIYW.IIUTSTATL;NAWLYD (Why would you make up an abbreviation for a phrase you just made up? Typically you do something like this when the phrase is well known or you use it multiple times in your writing. It is used to save time and type less; not add words like you did. )
To be fair, I've seen YAWC before. Many times... |
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Originally posted by neKrow
FFXI was and is an amazing game. This is because of the complexity, not in spite of it. The problem with coming out with new games is as we all wait for them to be developed, we can't help but wonder what they're going to be like. Are they going to be YAWC (hah!) like LOTRO, or something for the RPers like HJ (if it were actually going to be released) or something complex like FFXI. I've been playing a lot of MMOs lately and have noticed the influence of WOW on each of them. Except FFXI, since it was released before WOW. Here's the problem... You're a game developer, and you have 500,000 subscribers. You think you did pretty good for yourself. It's steadily dropping, as usual, but you did good. A good solid game and you're getting compensated very well for that hard work. You look over and see WOW with thier millions of subscribers and now your 500k just doesn't seem like enough to keep you happy anymore. Now you want to take away some of those guys from WOW. How do you do that? Well you make YAWC (hah!), and now you can steal some of those players away! That's the way to do it!
Every single employee on every single game needs to have written on their cubicle or office wall the immortal words of Henry Ford. "If I'd asked my customers what they wanted, they'd have said a faster horse". Listen to your customers, SE... Listen to your potential customers... But do what all good games, all good TV shows, and all good products in history have always done... Your own thing. TV shows all go down hill when writers start listening to producers. Don't let what happened to Heroes happen to FF, SE. Do it right. |
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Originally posted by Valendros
FFXI was and is an amazing game. This is because of the complexity, not in spite of it. The problem with coming out with new games is as we all wait for them to be developed, we can't help but wonder what they're going to be like. Are they going to be YAWC (hah!) like LOTRO, or something for the RPers like HJ (if it were actually going to be released) or something complex like FFXI. I've been playing a lot of MMOs lately and have noticed the influence of WOW on each of them. Except FFXI, since it was released before WOW. Here's the problem... You're a game developer, and you have 500,000 subscribers. You think you did pretty good for yourself. It's steadily dropping, as usual, but you did good. A good solid game and you're getting compensated very well for that hard work. You look over and see WOW with thier millions of subscribers and now your 500k just doesn't seem like enough to keep you happy anymore. Now you want to take away some of those guys from WOW. How do you do that? Well you make YAWC (hah!), and now you can steal some of those players away! That's the way to do it!
Every single employee on every single game needs to have written on their cubicle or office wall the immortal words of Henry Ford. "If I'd asked my customers what they wanted, they'd have said a faster horse". Listen to your customers, SE... Listen to your potential customers... But do what all good games, all good TV shows, and all good products in history have always done... Your own thing. TV shows all go down hill when writers start listening to producers. Don't let what happened to Heroes happen to FF, SE. Do it right. Abbreviations done right ... for the most part. I'll still throw out there than first off making up a abbreviation like that is retarded to begin with. Equally as retarded as calling game WoW clones to begin with. Some might warrant it. Others do not. Question for you, Vale: Why do you consider LOTRO a wow clone? Not attacking you or anything; I'm just curious. Is it because it is ... I am trying to think of more similarities but I really can't. And i do have to agree with how bad FFXIV will be if they add a whiny "omg my life is terrible and my wife left me be I got high and had a dream about you so you obviously love me since i'm the guy you never met before but you can't walk and you died and so I found my ex wife and got back with her and I had a serial killer in my head and omg my life is terrible" bitch-ass Matt Parkman ... One truly good episode so far this season ... the one he died. I don't even get a full episode of happiness before they bring his sorry ass back ... EDIT: thought of another one 7) Mining nodes |
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Have you ever played FFXI? THAT is not a WOW clone. LOTRO is a WOW clone because of three main characteristics that I can think of off the top of my head. 1) Interface. It's not just the wasd (as I move with the keypad, anyway). It's the entire look and feel of the game. You have 5 bags for your inventory which pops up identically, the NPC buy/sell/repair screen is identical, the skill icons in skill bars are identical, the group HP bars, targeting, minimap with little buttons around the edges, on-screen xp bar, chat windows... the look and feel of the game is the exact same as WOW. I bet I could make a LOTRO interface that looks so good, you wouldn't be able to tell them apart. 2) NPC-based economy. You sell items specifically given to you for the purpose of selling to NPCs for gold. I think this is the crux of the problem with most WOW clones, and what FFXI specifically did right that other makers should copy IT for. You can have a stable, thriving, and fair game economy with just some hard work on the design stage. a Player based economy is far superior to an NPC based one. 3) Quest-based XP. If you want to level up in LOTRO and WOW, you have quests. You can get far more XP/hour by questing than you can by killing things, or really anything else you can do. WOW is designed that way and LOTRO copied it. This causes solo play to be far preferred to group play as you can level up faster and get far more loot for your efforts. |
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Originally posted by Valendros
Off topic: I cant stand Heros, its a straight rip off of X-men. Waiting for: Final Fantasy XIV |
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Everything's a ripoff of something. Very few original ideas exist. The first season of Heroes was very good. It's been limping along off the strength off that first season for years. |
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Originally posted by Valendros
>.> hang on ... you know this and accept this and you still call LORTO a clone of WOW? Long story short on Wednesday night I typed a nice long counter argument to your last post. Lost of example inside and outside the realm of gaming. Talked about industry standards and such . It was really amazing if I do say so myself. Took nearly 3 hours. I ended up accidently hitting a link and it erased everything I wrote... I basically cried myself to sleep that night. Any yes ... I have played FFXI ... since NA launch ... I probably have played more longer and more often than you ... just saying. http://www.ffxiah.com/player.php?id=19030 |
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WhackANewbie
 Apprentice Member
Joined: 10/12/09
Grammar: this is not a college course nor an interview so **** me. |
I never understand why people get upset over how a game is. There is nothing wrong with being a casual player because, to be honest, you should only ever be one and get out and have a life instead of having the light off for 12 hours a day staring at a screen. I mean...my light has only been off 10 hours ;) |
Originally posted by WhackANewbie
the problem is ALL games are becomeing solo friendly. there is nothing wrong with wanting group games. If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude; greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen. |
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FFXI one of the best communities ever because it didn't cater to the casuals. FFXIV needs to be the same way or I'll be highly disappointed. |
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WhackANewbie
Apprentice Member
Joined: 10/12/09
Grammar: this is not a college course nor an interview so **** me. |
Originally posted by Ekibiogami
the problem is ALL games are becomeing solo friendly. there is nothing wrong with wanting group games.
I never said anything about grouping. I like solo and grouping. this thread is about casual gamers, not grouping. |
Originally posted by WhackANewbie
I never said anything about grouping. I like solo and grouping. this thread is about casual gamers, not grouping.
he was just making a point about how the casual dominates the more hardcore so every developer wants a piece of the "solo and easy game" hence why there is such a massive lack of hardcore games since WoW. Thats likely why he is upset over how the game is the way it is. |
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Originally posted by zanfire
I never said anything about grouping. I like solo and grouping. this thread is about casual gamers, not grouping.
he was just making a point about how the casual dominates the more hardcore so every developer wants a piece of the "solo and easy game" hence why there is such a massive lack of hardcore games since WoW. Thats likely why he is upset over how the game is the way it is. WoW has actually hit upon a pretty good formulate to alleviate this problem. Make "hard core" modes that are optional but give better rewards. WoW has that for raids, but it looks like FFXIV could possibly have that for questing with the Guildleve system (let's hope) -- (and one would hope if it is like that for quests intended for leveling then it will also be like that for dungeons and such). |
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LOTRO IS a clone of WOW. Since you have spent so much time in FFXI, do you not agree with the fact that EQ2, WOW, LOTRO and virtually ever game released SINCE WOW is in one side of the spectrum, each with common traits and curious similarities... Where FFXI is a game without an easily comparable twin? I don't see how you can sit there and say that you don't see the similarities of many games to WOW when you've claimed to play WOW & FFXI. It's not just that they needed the game to be controller-friendly either, it's that they didn't use WOW as a template to constantly refer back to every time they designed a new system. Now I'm talking about system design (user interface, battle systems, quest system, drop system, crafting, AH and the resulting community atmosphere) maybe you're talking about lore and how they all have unique story lines, races, and ultimate goals.
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Originally posted by Valendros Okay ... first sorry I won't be going into nearly as much detail as I was expecting. I'm still bummed out about wednesday In industry there are certain things that are borrowed from competitors. The example I had picked out before was the auto industry. At one point cars didn't have passenger side airbags; now a days it is pretty standard. All of those car that have been made since the first one with passenger side airbags were not "clones" of that model. What happened was the industry saw a potential add to their product and they decided to research and add to their models. Air bags, seat belts, automatic transmissions, headlights, turn signals, anti-lock breaks, power steering. All things that have been added to a single make at one point that other makes have saw and adapted into their product. This is no different in any other industry. Take a look at Project Nadel and Sony's motion detector technology coming on the coat tails of the Wii. Are you going to say that Sony and Microsoft are "cloning" the Wii? I'd hope not because you'd be wrong and I 'd like to think you are a very well educated person that this is just experiencing a misconception. Problem I have with calling LORTO (or many "WoW-Clones") a "WoW clone" is calling it a clone. For a game to be a WoW clone you'd almost a precise copy of the game but just skinned differently. I won't argue with you there are WoW Clones out there. I won't argue with you there are some aspect in WoW that you can see in LOTRO. However the things that you do see are things that are becoming industry standards (see above with auto industry). Things that look good and work well in other games that Turbine has turned and used in their game. There things are the things in the user interface you talked about before: Health bars, action bar, etc. Now if you'd like I will go into why they are doing this later int another post but I don't want to type for another hour tonight. Yes it is by design, no it isn't for the sake of copying a game. The one thing you have to remember though. You need to take a step back from WoW. EQ2, WoW, LORTO, and even FFXI all have roots in the original Everquest. A lot of interface and game play game from EQ1 and even thing things that did not most had roots in some mechanic of EQ1. Unreal Engine ... thanks for this fodder. You use a great example here. A lot of developing houses use Unreal. Why? Because it is a quality engine, I assume relatively inexpensive, and they see what other people have done with it and are like "I could do that something like that" or "I could do that but do that better" (see above with auto industry). Now I have not actually played Metal of Honor but if I am not mistaken it is a World War 2 FPS, correct? The major reason you are not seeing a lot similar between Metal of Honor and Bioshock is just that: There is not a lot similar. They two settings are not even comparable. One is a historic fps and the other is a fantasy fps. There are different rules governing each of those universes: mob movements, weapon damage, lightning shooting, etc. However you do see similarities ... because they are both FPS. Both have you looking in a first person perspective with your gun in front of you (obviously). You have a hud with health and remaining ammo. You are moving across a map shooting at things getting in your way as you move to your goal. Is Bioshock a "clone" of MoH? No ... they are both FPS that is what they do (see above with auto industry). Also in the argument is that MoH has something called pedigree to worry about. It is a series and you need to adopt parts of its predecessors in order to continue the series. If it doesn't then it almost becomes a new IP (this is the reason Modern Warfare 2 is called Modern Warfare 2 and not Call of Duty 6). Bioshock's pedigree was from System Shock which was so old that Bioshock was build from the ground up and almost is own IP. To compare Bioshock with MoH you are really comparing a pedigree from 2007 to a pedigree from last millennium. Digression ... However, the rules governing EQ2, WoW and LORTO all were influenced by Everquest. Everquest was influenced by MMOs like UO and other MUDS. They were influenced by Dungeons and Dragons which was influenced by (you ready for this twist ... ) Tolkien and The Lord of the Rings. Really FFXI shouldn't even be in this argument ... but I am going to use it anyway. Both FFXI and WoW were influenced by EQ. Both Blizzard and Square (not sure if they were even Square Enix at that time) wanted to break into the MMO market and both looked at EQ which was the game of its age (guess what you are looking above at). The true difference between evolution of WoW and FFXI is the PlayStation 2, more specifically, a mouse. You don't have a mouse on the PS2, you do on a PC. If you did have a mouse on PS2 you would have those action bars (they are called macro bars in FFXI) to click. You can't use the PS2 controller to control the player, camera, and a mouse cursor all at once. The whole menu system that was a staple of the series that differentiates FFXI from all those other MMOs was more a feasibility thing because of the platform the game was developed for. Back to the point. Is LORTO a clone of WoW? No. Influenced by it? Probably. Not entirely sure if sights were set on WoW or EQ in development. The major thing to look at isn't the aesthetics of the game which you are focusing on. It is the game itself. It is a whole different set of lore and because of that they are very different games. WoW is comprised of two player-controlled factions fighting for control of the world. LORTO (like FFXI might mind you) is a player base coming together to fight a common computer-controlled enemy. It is what equates to PvP vs PvE. If you in LORTO you could choose to side with Sauron or not when you make your toon and you play the game fighting anyone you can from the opposite faction then you would have a problem. Mattering on how the game actually played in that case you might have a clone (as it isn't I can only speculate). If you wanted to look at an MMO that you could call a clone of WoW, maybe you could look at WAR, but I think Warhammer influenced Warcraft a lot more than WoW influenced WAR (point: karma). I have played both games. I do not get the sense I am playing WoW when I play LORTO or vice versa. If it is a clone you shouldn't be able to tell one game from the other outside of graphics. If you can't tell the difference then that is on you and I can't begin to tell you that you would be wrong about that. P.S. In another post I'll discuss economies of WoW and like games and FFXI and why they are different. I spent a lot of time on that on Wednesday :-/ |
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I'm sure FF14 would be more successful if it catered to casual players, but if you can solo anything meaningful at all, than it's not exactly targeting typical FFXI players is it? Hmmmm.... It may lure some of 11's players away, but if it's too easy then it definitely won't keep them for long. FFXi doesn't retain players because they don't know any better, they genuinely care about what they've earned!
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Where has that gotten us? If 'passenger side airbags' were the only single system that was cloned, that'd be fine... But it's that all the cars have the same features, and are virtually identical in every way. This has just led to a severe lack of imagination and true innovation in the auto industry. The Big 3 have been making the same cars year after year instead of coming up with risky changes they all pump out the same crap and that has led to a sharp rise in foreign car sales and in all likelihood will see the end of at least one of these decades old companies.
They are taking aspects of the Wii and making something that people want. But the Wii isn't in competition with Microsoft and Sony. MS & Sony are in the hardcore gamer market, and doing very well. Wii is a simple, cheap, fun, easy system. Even if Sony came out with a PS-EASY, it wouldn't sell as well. The Wii did something innovative. They read the market and took a huge risk coming out with an underpowered, easy-to-use, fun game platform. Without that innovation, nobody would be trying to imitate them.
WOW is a Camry, LOTRO is an Accord.
The original EQ was the 1970 Toyota Celica (the model T being UO and AC). But where WOW, EQ2, and LOTRO are just the Camry, Accord, and Elantra, FFXI is a whole new class of car. FFXI may not be a Tesla Roadster, but it's at least electric. I'm not sure if the analogy can work through the whole post, but we'll see...
I think that's our disagreement. You think I see similarities because they're both FPS. I really see similarities because they're both FPS, made with the unreal engine. Thus they have the same movement styles, the same graphical capabilities, similar HUD look, and similar mob movements. They are very similar because they're made with the same engine. That's not to say I can't enjoy them separately for their stories. As such, LOTRO, EQ2, and WOW are extremely similar. As they have the same look and feel, and many of identically designed systems, but separate and unique story lines.
I'm not just looking at the aesthetics; I'm looking at system design, community design... basically everything EXCEPT lore. Lore is fine, they all have different lore and story. They have to or they would be sued. Lore and story, yes. I do like the lore of each of the games, and I enjoy the story as it unfolds. That's what you focus on and the source of our argument. That and my use of the word “Clone” as you are taking a literal definition… by ‘clone’ most people know what I’m talking about, there just isn’t a good single word to use for: A series of systems that all have the identical look and feel of another series of systems from another game. WOW & LOTRO have identical look, feel and underlying design of systems, where FFXI, while influenced by other games, does not have an identical look, feel or underlying design of its systems. Yes, MMOs are all going to be alike, as you have an avatar that moves through 3d space, you typically have points of some kind be they experience, health, power, etc, you get better as you progress through the game, there are story elements that facilitate you forward through the game, etc.
LOTRO is 90% WOW Of course those #'s are all arbitrary, but they illustrate what I'm trying to say. FFXIV should stick to its roots of being a game set apart from WOW, not try to incorporate what people see as WOW's strengths into itself. FFXI is a great game BECAUSE of its differences, not because of its similarities. |
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Originally posted by Valendros
i still dont understand why people say FFXI and EQ2 are like WoW at all, they both came BEFORE WoW, so you cant say anthing before the game came out is "like" WoW, becuase WoW is "like" them. |
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EQ2 came out the same month as WOW, but that doesn't really matter... The standard isn't about what comes out first, it's about which is most popular. If a game company comes in and wants to duplicate a system that's well liked in WOW, they aren't doing it because EQ did it 4 years earlier. They're doing it because WOW has the largest playerbase (and they want a large playerbase, so lets copy the people that have what we want). He's saying none of the games are like WOW, and I'm saying where many other games are like WOW, FFXI is severely not like it. WOW did what a lot of highly successful inventors do. WOW took from all the best ideas from all the other games out there and brought them together into a single game. Easy. Then they made it so anybody could play (just like the Wii). FFXI didn't. For a vast majority of their content and system design, FFXI did its own thing.
WOW Copied the system with a basic copy & paste. - As did LOTRO, EQ2, and too may other games to count. That's the difference. SE's attention to detail shines just as brightly as turbine's lack of detail. |
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Originally posted by Valendros
You hit it on the head right there ... no need to go any farther. Camry and Accord are cars that are in the same class just as WoW and LORTO are. The use of the word clone is the problem. Saying that the Accord is a clone of a Camry isn't a valid statement. The part I left out of my last post that I had apart of the Wednesday fiasco was talking about industry standards and why you use them. What all industry does it is sees and idea that someone does and tries to mimic it. Why? Firstly because it works and secondly because when you have Joe MMOer looking to play a different game you want him to have some semblance of familiarity between products. A great example is between FFXI and the other MMOs out there. Where FFXI the default is to move around with the number pad and other MMOs you are using WASD and a mouse. There is an example on the FFXI forums here where I was talking someone through how to move and they were hellbend on using the mouse (which I warned not to). Why? because he was used to it. Do you know how many people tried and left FFXI just because it was too different? I don't have enough fingers to count the number of people who have come up to me and told me they quit FFXI because the spacebar doesn't make your toon jump. ... entirely true can't make shit like that up. I am not suggesting innovation is a bad thing or FFXI was wrong in anyway ... it is just the way of the world. Long story short you mimic like this to pull people away from the "best of class" choice, give them an experience that makes them forget the original, then put out version 2 of your product and rely on brand loyalty to drive the sales of your second version. Where as if you started with version 2 your sales would not be as good because the concept would be too foreign to the consumer. * IMPORANT REVELATION * This is kinda where SE did shit a little back asswards. They originally put out a product that was too foreign and are now starting to move back towards the mainstream a little bit ... which gets people up and arms and is the initial reason for this thread ... boy how shit goes in circles. * END REVELATION * It happens everywhere. I mean the keyboard you are typing on was birthed from the typewriter. When they invented computers they didn't feel the need to change the keyboard to anything that isn't resemble a type writer. Why? Because people were used to it. A QWERTY keyboard layout is not the best layout of letters and typing (there are studies out there if you want to find them). We could all increase accuracy and efficiency while typing if we changed the keyboard layout, but we don't because it is familiar. Did you ever have to explain a computer to a grandparent? A few years back it was hell because it was such a foreign concept (those grandparents have died off and have been replace with slightly more tech savvy ones). You need to keep some familiarity between products or else people get lost. It is kinda like you can only reinvent the wheel so many times. Quickly on the topic of community: Programmers do not control the community; the players do. You cannot program the game to make people play one way or another. FFXI today could be full of mmo sociopaths like WoW. It just so happens that the those childish prats for the most part stayed away or were forced out because "the game was too hard (boo-fucking-ho)" To say that FFXI is any % of WoW is wrong and is a problem when talking to people. WoW might be the gold standard in people minds but people need to think outside the tunnel vision sites like this one breed. Take a step back. FFXI is no 30% of WoW. FFXI is 30% of EQ. To really continue the analogy: MUDs :: Horse [EDIT: changed FFXI from an F150 to a Ram to have different car makes for the two different companies] |
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Never got quite up to my old typing speed, cause my boss would see that I'm typing slowly, realize I'm trying to learn Dvorak again, and give me more work... damn smart bosses...
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It does turn my stomach a bit to respond to something using WOW as a comparison because I think it is the Wal-Mart of MMOs, but you cannot deny the fact that it is competition.
In my experience I started playing console and gradually upgraded to PC. I got hooked on MMOs from playing FFXI on my PS2, and then when I got my computer, I got another copy for my PC. I immediately had to get a controller for my PC as well because the keyboard controls were complicated for me.
I soon grew tired of FFXI and moved onto other MMOs. No, not WoW. I refused to play WoW because I'm one of those people that like to try things no one else usually does. I got used to the gameplay of the PC using WASD for movement and Spacebar for jump, number keys for the main hotbar, etc etc.
I was really itching for something like FFXI the whole time because I really missed the loads of content and unique teamwork-type gameplay. So I went back to FFXI . I immediately was frustrated with the keyboard controls and turned off by the out-dated graphics. Also my boyfriend is an avid PC Gamer and plays games with me often. He refused to even try playing FFXI with me due to the lack of intuitiveness of the GUI and controls compared to other PC Games.
Now I say other PC Games which do include A LOT of MMOs, but even single-player games on the PC have similar keyboard mechanics. I really hope this new one does not revolve around the controller. I am not completely against controllers, but they really need to make it easy for both.
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Originally posted by Jenadara
People like to use what they previously used before which is why people think the control for the PC version of FFXI are so terrible. People grew up on the WASD and mouse and that is what they will use and refuse to use anything else. Try now a days to play and FPS where your shoot and/or aim buttons are not on the triggers or bumpers of your controller. No one would play because the controls would be to foreign (and I'd personally think would be a step back in development of the genre). But to answer your fears... yes FFXIV will use a controller. Developed for the PC and PS3 ... PS3 has no native mouse or keyboard. The ideas of a console would be have all parts of the games have a common thread. Hardware included. If they wanted to have keyboard and mouse only on FFXIV they would have to include the peripherals with the core game (FFXI did this with the PS2 HDD). It raises the price point and wouldn't be the best marketing strategy because it would make the PS3 version of the game more expensive than the PC version. You could easily spend $30 outside the price of the game for a keyboard and mouse for your PS3 (i did it ... rocketfish keyboard/mouse combo off ebay ... works with PS3/360/PC ... I'd recommend). Honestly what they best course of action would be would have a Standard version of FFXIV where you get the core game and a Limited edition or some kind in which you also get a limited edition of the PS3 chat pad which could be used for multiple game. Problem being is there are no function keys of the chat pad ... but then again they could use action bars and not a macro menu in which case meh .... Anywho the moral of the story is ... Go give WoW a shot. It isn't a bad game, the community makes it bad. Don't stop yourself from playing a game you might like just because everyone like it |
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