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News Discussion  » General: Wachter: The Failed Game

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92 posts found
  Wraithone

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 2660

If you can't kill it, don't make it mad.

11/24/09 2:29:20 PM#21

Great article. But two of the main points that killed Asherons Call 2, were the ENDLESS stream of "issues". Hardly a week went by without them breaking something basic to the game(at one point they managed to break the combat system and the chat system both).  The other being that it was NOT the game the Asherons Call 1 player base was expecting.  If they had simply expanded on what made AC1 great, updated the graphics engine and content, I'm betting it would still be in operation today.

I can't say I'm surprised that you didn't touch on SWG's NGE, but by definition when one loses 2/3's of ones player base in a few weeks, it has to be regarded as failure.  I know I'm still to this day rather annoyed by the subject...

 

Tabula Rasa is a fine example of what happens when one runs out of investment capital... I suspect NCsoft simply refused to provide further funding(launch or perish).  You are exactly right to place the blame on the shoulders of the upper management. They should have planned for the required development time, and hence the funding. But given the games past history, it wasn't a surprise that they ran out.  Its too bad as I rather enjoyed some aspects of the game. I ran a spy and a sniper to level cap. Some of the base defense dynamics against the Bane got WILD! Those are some of my best memories of the game.

  NightCloak

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/06/07
Posts: 417

11/24/09 3:22:40 PM#22

I have to say... This article impressed me. It was mostly correct and had actual thought put into it. Not something I expect at mmoprg.com anymore.

I do have a bone to pick about the article in reference to Tabula Rasa. It didn't fail due to a lack of development or lack of funds. It failed due to poor management. It had a HUGE development purse, but wasted it on scrapping ideas and starting new ones.

I dont think we will ever see another UO or something that can compare. The genre isn't the same anymore.

 

Though I do have to say, as far as AAA titles, I dont see any MMOFPS soon. But less than AAA and you have Global Agenda headed to market.

I also believe that you hold developers way to accountable for the outcome of an MMO than they should be held. Especially for AAA titles or corporately backed MMOs. The reason is that developers are like artists and usually not part of the brass. They have to paint someone elses picture. Sure, they might have a vision, but that doesnt matter if the money doesnt see the same vision. You have investors to please, producers slotting schedules and marketing taking everything you say in your sleep and putting it on an ad all over the internet.

Blizzard is developing another MMO. And I expect it to be a smash hit without knowing a detail about it.

  HalfEmpty

Novice Member

Joined: 10/20/06
Posts: 44

11/24/09 3:24:53 PM#23

A very interesting read  - from somebody who's actually seen the sausage being made.

Btw, are all the authors really as diabolical as their portraits make them look?. Taken together, they look like something out of Batmans' rogue gallery..

  haratu

Novice Member

Joined: 4/09/09
Posts: 409

11/24/09 3:48:47 PM#24

Some games it seems the plug is often pulled needlessly without giving the game a chance. Tabula Rasa for example had an expansion patch on the way before they pulled it and was regaining popularity slowly, yet it was pulled (ironically at the same time they began preparing for Aion release in the west).

Age of Conan is one that seems similar, its subscribers are slowly regaining and people often wonder if the game will be shelved. COnsider there is an expansion looming and they are making new patches and content, this is unlikly in the near future, however following the direction of games like Tabula Rasa, is this a guarrantee? No, not really. 

  User Deleted
11/24/09 3:54:09 PM#25

Great article.  Much wisdom there, I could tell.

 

I'd suggest that there is an MMOFPS still out there: World War II Online.   Niche games can survive, but they have to be very careful, and as the article says enhance the play for the audience you have.

 

I would also add Fallen Earth as another MMOFPS, though it is really a hybrid FPS/RPG style interface.

  Wraithone

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 2660

If you can't kill it, don't make it mad.

11/24/09 4:01:43 PM#26
Originally posted by haratu

Some games it seems the plug is often pulled needlessly without giving the game a chance. Tabula Rasa for example had an expansion patch on the way before they pulled it and was regaining popularity slowly, yet it was pulled (ironically at the same time they began preparing for Aion release in the west).

Age of Conan is one that seems similar, its subscribers are slowly regaining and people often wonder if the game will be shelved. COnsider there is an expansion looming and they are making new patches and content, this is unlikly in the near future, however following the direction of games like Tabula Rasa, is this a guarrantee? No, not really. 

 

Good points. But keep in mind that Turbine closed Asherons Call 2, not that long after selling us an expansion. So, simply because there is an expansion is no protection against closing.  If the rest of Age of Conan had lived up to the first 20 levels of content, I've no doubt it would be more popular.  But as it was, there was way too much disconnect.  Also keep in mind that all three games that NCSoft has axed have been western.  Since Aion is Asian, I doubt its going to have any problems, even if it doesn't do much better than Linage2 did in the west.

  Xenrathe

Novice Member

Joined: 5/04/08
Posts: 22

11/24/09 4:35:54 PM#27

Also thought it was a good read.

I've rooted for so many MMOs that ultimately failed... Ultima Online 2 and Shadowbane to name a few, yet I am still astounded by some of the poor choices that developers and management make.  I never played Asheron's Call (I was playing Ultima Online at the time) but I heard such wonderful things about AC's PvP that I was rather ecstatic to have a second chance with Asheron's Call 2.  Yet when I loaded it up, even I could tell that it was nothing like Asheron's Call.  How is such an obvious blunder made?

Ignoring AC2's other issues (as another poster mentioned), I suspect that it failed at the conceptual stage.  They wanted another WoW-esque hit.  But developers, and investors, and whoever else need to realize something: you aren't going to out-WoW WoW.  It's not going to happen.  Ever.

So stop trying.  Look at EvE Online, which is moderately successful because they offered an MMO experience that wasn't just WoW in a different set of clothes.  It fulfilled a desire for exploration and diplomacy and space fighting, a desire that no one else had managed to successfully tap.  CCP, the makers of Eve, seem to get their business in a way that few others do.  Though Eve isn't my cup of tea, I've seen enough to believe that CCP knows how to patch the game in a way that doesn't alter the fundamental experience, the social empire-building aspects.  Because of this, CCP has earned their fan's loyalty and trust.

 

Getting back to failed MMOs, I would be keenly interested to read an interview with a developer of a failed MMO, for some insight into how and why the ball was dropped.  Sadly such interviews are often lacking in said insight, usually full of marketing lines, excuses, or an outright demonstration that the developer at no point knew what he was doing.  Though not a MMO, I remember reading an interview with one of the creators of Kane & Lynch (which achieved some fame in the critical realm because of the Gamespot controversy), which was fascinatingly honest.  Any chance anyone could link me to a similiar MMO interview?

In my opinion, what it often comes down to is that developers (and the 'suits') are unwilling and unable to throw away bad work.  As a writer, I've learned that you've got to be willing to chuck something that isn't going to work.  I've spent hours upon hours on a short story, or a chapter in a novel, or an article only to admit that it was bad and throw it away and start fresh.  Unfortunately while writing is basically free, games require lots of capital, and sometimes these developers are left with basically no choice but to hype their game in order to front-load box sales.  Sucks, but I'm not sure that it's reasonable to expect otherwise.

But because I prefer to never end on a sour note, I admit to being somewhat happy that the big publishers are unable or unwilling to take risks.  That makes your more independent titles that much more refreshing, that much more bold.  Anyone hear about Love, for example?  Only a matter of time til one of these smaller titles scores big.

  SioBabble

Novice Member

Joined: 6/10/07
Posts: 2823

11/24/09 6:20:50 PM#28

A very good read, as others have said.

I think this is a key passage, because it tells us something about the MMO industry, such as it is:

These days, companies tend to take a short-sighted view of the MMO subscription lifespan, and if a game isn't a hit right out the door, they are quick to slash the live development team to a skeleton and they begin considering the right time to sunset the service.

This is not dissimilar to how TV series that fail to instantly become a "hit" are abandoned at once.  To provide a historical example of how stupid this mentality is, Cheers finished its first season at the bottom of the ratings, yet went on to become a classic series in continuous syndication making money for the studio, creators, writers, actors, composer of the theme song, the works, for decades.  It was allowed to find an audience.  TV series nowadays are not allowed to find an audience over time, they're abandoned if they fail to be an instant success.

Nowadays MMOs are not allowed to find audiences.  EVE has, and is prospering, albeit not with WoW numbers.  But if it were published by SOE, it would have been sunsetted quickly for failure to be a hit.

WoW, the 800 pound gorilla, has altered the landscape in countless ways, to include the standard of whether or not an MMO is considered to be a success, and as a result of the short term mentality (one that plauges American business in general) it stifles games that, if allowed, would find niche markets were they'd make some money for someone.  Perhaps not oceans of benjamins like WoW, but some money and keep some developers employed and some players entertained.

CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.

Once a denizen of Ahazi

  Selek

Novice Member

Joined: 5/14/03
Posts: 236

11/24/09 6:53:42 PM#29

No mention of Earth and Beyond?!? that game was awesome.

-Selek

  Drafell

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/08/03
Posts: 516

DarkSpace

11/24/09 7:03:13 PM#30

It was a sad day when EnB died. Unfortunately, the publisher did not want to support the game any longer as they did not consider it to be a successful title. It does not matter that they reportedly had around 30,000 subscription on close, which is more than enough to keep the servers running, and even make a little extra profit.

  Wraithone

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 2660

If you can't kill it, don't make it mad.

11/24/09 7:11:36 PM#31
Originally posted by Selek

No mention of Earth and Beyond?!? that game was awesome.

 

Yes, lots of fun. Yet another BAD decision to lay at EA's door.  EA is if anything even worse than SOE. Just about anything they touch is the worse for it.

  erictlewis

Elite Member

Joined: 11/08/08
Posts: 2103

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over while expecting different results.

11/24/09 7:12:53 PM#32

That was a very good read.

I agree SOE has messed up a bunch but they have a couple of really good games haging in there. 

You had turbine who completely blew it with DND to come back out and with the FTP model to almost save it.  LOTRO is floudering, despite what some of the fan boys say and the possibilies in china.  The game in the states has seen a huge downturn, maybe with this xpack they can save it,  but I really dont thing so, lacking any clear dirrection.

Other gaming companies, funcom with there problems with AOC, NCSOFT what a joke I have seen so many post where folks went to AION then going back to their respected games.  

It is a harsh market, and I think were in for an MMO crash soon, total and across the board. 

Main reaon why,  folks are board.

 

  Rasputin

Elite Member

Joined: 7/07/03
Posts: 503

11/24/09 7:27:15 PM#33

Yaya, Victor, defend Planetside all you want. It was in the beginning a very good game, but as you say longevity was it's main problem.

But what killed it was the socalled "Balance Pass", which suddenly turned the game into VehicleSide. As a soldier you couldn't set a foot outside a base. It would take you 30 Anti-vehicle rockets and 2 minutes to kill an abandoned tank standing still, not defending itself (I made a test).

Live team is morons, and they didn't understand the intricate balance of the game, instead they fucked it up royally, resulting in my guild and many others to quit in disgust.

After that came the mech warriors and the special underground expansion that divided up the population, effectively killing the game.

If PS had instead implemented Outfit-Owned Bases or some other ways to allow the players to "own" a part of the world, to involve them more, maybe you could have turned it around. Instead you tried to go for the "easy" solution, an expansion and some stupid new units, that just required new meshes and little more.

 

Planetside had a longevity problem, but you could have solved it with implementations in a different direction. It was not longevity that ultimately killed the game, SOE did that themselves through their incredibly imbecile live team.

  jakojako

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/25/06
Posts: 330

11/24/09 7:29:10 PM#34
Originally posted by Rasputin

Yaya, Victor, defend Planetside all you want. It was in the beginning a very good game, but as you say longevity was it's main problem.

But what killed it was the socalled "Balance Pass", which suddenly turned the game into VehicleSide. As a solder you couldn't set a foot outside a base. It would take you 30 Anti-vehicle rockets and 2 minutes to kill an abandoned tank standing still, not defending itself (I made a test).

Live team is morons, and they didn't understand the intricate balance of the game, instead they fucked it up royally, resulting in my guild and many others to quit in disgust.

After that came the mech warriors and the special underground expansion that divided up the population, effectively killing the game.

If PS had instead implemented Outfit-Owned Bases or some other ways to allow the players to "own" a part of the world, to involve them more, maybe you could have turned it around. Instead you tried to go for the "easy" solution, an expansion and some stupid new units, that just required new meshes and little more.

 

Planetside had a longevity problem, but you could have solved it with implementations in a different direction. It was not longevity that ultimately killed the game, the SOE did that themselves through their incredibly imbecile live team.

RAH RAH RASPUTIN LOVER OF THE RUSSIAN QUEEN!

 

sorry.. i had to

  User Deleted
11/24/09 9:07:39 PM#35
Originally posted by LordBonezy

MMOs might seem like a good place for money right now but it sure isn't a good place for a quality exprience and a rapidly improving product if Age of Conan is any measure of the industry.

Several Key Areas of Failure are evident in their implementation.

-Overmarketing ( Selling features which don't exist and never will)

-Underdeveloping ( Releasing a product without major components functional and without a plan to rapidly implement those features at a pace more rapid than the majority of your consumers are going to exprience their unfunctionality.

-Failure to innovate ( Break the mold in non-essential areas, and get the tentacles of development into areas where gamers are looking for fresh and new ideas, or areas which can clearly use improvement.

-Failure to Provide the Basic ( Functionality, Lagfree or lowlag, stable performance on box specs, interesting gameplay, functional and fair mechanics in class vs class abilities, functional grouping and clan/guild resources, create the drive for both competition and cooperation, without it you are running a single player MMO, and people don't stick around without compelling reasons to make friends or kill enemies.

Age of Conan failed in so many ways and yet there are those who still consider it a successful failure, or a success, well clearly it is neither, a successful failure would mean that the launch crowd who came and left would at least be interested in a free trial of the game and approve of the improvements, however that is not the case. A success would mean that the game never lost the majority of players who had played in the first place. Neither are true. Today 96% of players who have played AOC have moved on. Populations are imploding on mutiple servers and they are working hard to cut expenses and try to keep the company alive until they release the next expansion, probably missing some functionality, key components and with a lack of innovation just like Age of Conan and Anarchy Online.

Some developers and Funcom is no different, simply don't have the stones or the brains to develop a complete product.


 

Nice post I've said this quite a few times already, we are at a point where the glut of companies out there does not seem to reflect the talent pool working on mmo's.  I have quite a few hobbies outside of playing mmo's but mmo's are one of the only areas where there are so many companies I won't deal with and for reasons I think are very valid.  If you advertise something deliver it, while the warning on the box that tells us the game may be nothing like what we see on package is good protection for them far too many of them have played fast and lose with this fact.  I as a consumer have no sympathy for your particular excuse of why you have explained features in interviews and then added them to the box only to not have them working when the game released especially when in some cases things don't even get the chance to break the game as they never even show up.

I love the part of the article that points out how these devs take 5-7 years only to release horribly broken games while saying a few months could have helped.  AOC s still plagued with many problems and obviously some from launch so what would make one think that a few more months could make a difference.  Right now Darkfall seems to be ahead of most of the lackluster releases we've seen lately as far as fixing things.

I hope the industry doesn't need to purge itself much further for us to be able to see a better quality product from the mmo genre.

  StrontyDog

Novice Member

Joined: 1/10/07
Posts: 84

11/24/09 9:41:32 PM#36

If you want MMOFPS, play Darkfall. Best game I have ever played by a long shot.

  ArcAngel3

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/25/06
Posts: 2939

Momento Mori

11/24/09 10:20:49 PM#37

Great article.  My favourite parts are:

-"Fact is that in many cases, it's because developers and publishers are screwing up."

-"Some games were released just plain broken as a result of bad development. Vanguard and Tabula Rasa's launches were just befuddled messes."

-"However, in transitioning, both of these games hemorrhaged customers and the population plummeted like dinosaurs after the asteroid struck."

-"We made the mistake of introducing a mechanic that changed our game, rather than enhancing what was already special about it…"
 

I've seen all of these things as well, and they all seemed to really hurt the games in question. 

I'd add that games are really over-hyped.  It's a real downer when you're told that a game is going to have really spectacular features, and then when it goes live, they simply aren't there, or they're there but they don't work.  Sometimes they're never fixed and just axed.  Then players get the company line that says, "well they were there, but we couldn't get them working, and we have the right to change our game as we see fit."  Heh, maybe so, but then customers are going to exercise their right to hit the cancel button, and publishers can watch their investment go down the toilet.  It's a lose/lose situation for sure.

  Wraithone

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 2660

If you can't kill it, don't make it mad.

11/24/09 11:12:18 PM#38
Originally posted by nin2010

If you want MMOFPS, play Darkfall. Best game I have ever played by a long shot.

 

Well, thanks for the good laugh any way... If I want a good FPS, one of the LAST games I'd play is Darkfall.  Its the poster child for over promise, under deliver thats been discussed.

  UnSub

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/16/04
Posts: 250

11/25/09 1:51:19 AM#39
Originally posted by HalfEmpty

Btw, are all the authors really as diabolical as their portraits make them look?. Taken together, they look like something out of Batmans' rogue gallery..

Wachter is an experienced community manager, so he knows the importance of making people afraid of you in order to maintain their respect and compliance.

After all, would you annoy the guy in that picture? No, because he looks like he'd show up at 3am knocking at your door, wanting a little 'face time'. ;-)

  finnmacool1

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/11/06
Posts: 387

11/25/09 2:25:06 AM#40

Finally an article written by someone with a gamer iq over 10.

If studios would simply make a game to fill a market/niche instead of trying to be all things to all people, game quality would go up 1000%. You can have a very successful game and make a tidy profit without 10 million subs.

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