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Originally posted by Blazz

I'd say it's more like they're giving you rental of a water fountain for the month, and you're using the water fountain too much.
Now, if bandwidth was actually measurable, like, say, a body of water, it would be understandable to limit people somewhat, but all you're really paying for is... what... a satellite? A big ol' bunch of wires that connect to various points that connect to satellite dishes that connect to other service providers and relay information?
Really, what you're paying for for "internet" just seems to be... electrical signals, and perhaps line rental.
I don't see how they can run out of electrical signals - except, well, if they run out of electricity.
 
All that said, I hate Australia's internet.

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Youre analogy doesn't make any sense because bandwidth can be measured.

The problem lies in the fact that while bandwidth is limited (a limit at the ISP level) ISP's sell it as if it is an unlimited resource, using technicalities and legal fine-print to dupe customers into thinking their unlimited plan, or even their limited plan, is as good as it seems.

It's no surprise that people are outraged when they are later told they are 'using too much' of their internet connection. How is it possible to use more of anything that you were sold? Using Blazz's analogy, how can you use more water than what you are sold? You can't, it's impossible!

ISP's, telephone and mobile network providers all operate on the assumption that consumers will not be using the service all of the time and using this knowledge have more bandwidth demand than supply. The difference is that telephone and mobile network providers have a much better demand/supply ratio than ISP's.

Claiming that government intervention would solve the problem is wishful thinking. Instead of your ISP ignoring you, it'd be the government instead. The problem can only be solved by consumers voting with their money. ISP's know how much of a pain it is to switch to an alternative though and make it difficult and time-consuming to do so in the hope that most people won't want to go through with it, and most people don't.

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Originally posted by haratu

Australia (and I know South Africa also does it) has had download limits since the internet was born, and seriously, if you know your monthly usage then you just pay for what you need.

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When Telstra first introduced ADSL in Australia it was unlimited and it was only a year or so later that they did an about-face and informed everyone that their internet was now limited. As the biggest ISP in Australia, all other ISP's were quick to follow suit.

How, pray tell, are we to predict our future internet usage? If you are able to predict your future internet usage then can I please have next week's lottery numbers?

Ideally flat-rate plans should disappear and per/MB-usage plans should take their place, but ISP's don't want this because it would mean less money.

The problem is America and the people it votes into office don't foster competition. Everything's about a dollar. Cable companies and ISPs get locks on certain areas and you have no other equal choices in most of them, same for health care: there's no competition. Having said that, the internet is quickly moving to a utility level service within our society.  Some form of government intervention is needed either in encouraging competition for same services in markets, breaking monopolies or really working to offer it to all citizens. As someone posted earlier, how ironic that we developed it but Asia(- china) and Europe are running with it. That all ties back into how they put more emphasis on quality of life over quantity. Greed is destroying this country and it's turning America into a backwater. Public high-speed rail, health care, internet access and the digital divide between the have's and have-nots are strangling us. We just love our "too big to fail" companies.

I work in the telecommunications industry (large cell phone company to be more precise) and I can tell you that the 4G wireless connections that are coming will help to alleviate this situation. The fastest wireless Internet connection will blow most landline connections out of the water. I'm definitely looking forward to this; LTE (the 4G standard of choice) should be out in majour markets sometime in 2010.

Originally posted by aerix88

I work in the telecommunications industry (large cell phone company to be more precise) and I can tell you that the 4G wireless connections that are coming will help to alleviate this situation. The fastest wireless Internet connection will blow most landline connections out of the water. I'm definitely looking forward to this; LTE (the 4G standard of choice) should be out in majour markets sometime in 2010.

Well 4G might be faster and more convenient for those who don't game to shift to wireless, but I don't see how this is going to help. ATT can't even handle the customers they have now on 3G. And the price they want for their 3G data service with the download caps is ridiculous.

I have Charter now. The service goes down constantly. The employees never know what they are talking about. The prices keep going up and their response to loosing customers to wireless, sat and DSL is to try and force existing customers into contracts. It's terrible and there is no recourse for bad service as there is no other highspeed service to my house except spotty 3G service.

Also, MMOs might not require a lot of data being sent and received on a regular basis, but between patches, expansions and a need to redownload the client once in awhile... could easily eat up some of the limits these companies want to force on us for a month. That doesn't even include the idea of digital purchases.... of games, not talking smaller MP3s here.

Originally posted by harrisben

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Originally posted by haratu

Australia (and I know South Africa also does it) has had download limits since the internet was born, and seriously, if you know your monthly usage then you just pay for what you need.

---

When Telstra first introduced ADSL in Australia it was unlimited and it was only a year or so later that they did an about-face and informed everyone that their internet was now limited. As the biggest ISP in Australia, all other ISP's were quick to follow suit.

How, pray tell, are we to predict our future internet usage? If you are able to predict your future internet usage then can I please have next week's lottery numbers?

Actually all ISPs offered limited download limits alongside their unlimited plans, i know this because i had an unlimited plan for about 3 years but friends took the limited plan because they could not afford the unlimited plan.

Do not mistake many of the 'unlimited plans' offered as unlimited, because they were actually limited, you just did not pay for extra downloads at slower speeds. only a few companies offered unlimited at the same speeds and all of those also offered limited ones.
 

As to predicting internet usage, it is easy and as I did it i am sure others would:

1 GB for casual usage (email, internet shopping)

2-4 GB for regular daily internet (facebook, MSN, browsing, email, etc)

4 GB for Gaming (or regular you-tube)

10 GB for some downloading (or internet movies)

20 GB for medium amount of downloading (or lots of internet movies)

20+ GB for more stuff.

Seriously, it is not hard, and my ISP actually shows me my usage and when I use it, making planning even easier, especially as I am not on a long term plan so I can switch anytime I want.

If you book into a 12 or 24 month plan, you are just a moron (simply put) plenty of good ISPs give monthly options.

Originally posted by giskard73

The problem is America and the people it votes into office don't foster competition. Everything's about a dollar. Cable companies and ISPs get locks on certain areas and you have no other equal choices in most of them, same for health care: there's no competition. Having said that, the internet is quickly moving to a utility level service within our society.  Some form of government intervention is needed either in encouraging competition for same services in markets, breaking monopolies or really working to offer it to all citizens. As someone posted earlier, how ironic that we developed it but Asia(- china) and Europe are running with it. That all ties back into how they put more emphasis on quality of life over quantity. Greed is destroying this country and it's turning America into a backwater. Public high-speed rail, health care, internet access and the digital divide between the have's and have-nots are strangling us. We just love our "too big to fail" companies.

Asia(China???)  put more emphasis on quality of life?? You are joking, right??  Its not "greed"(I'm still waiting for a non subjective definition of that...) thats destroying America. Its ignorance, apathy and expecting to be able to live at the expense of others that is destroying our country.  Its always looking to government(at any level) to deal with the consequences of our own actions(inactions) that has pretty much destroyed any hope of a better future for our children and grand children.  The corporations are just symptoms of that greater disease.  Just so long as politicians have the power to reward their friends, and punish their enemies, these problems will continue to grow until they destroy the system itself.  Real monopolies can only exist in the presence of government protection of them from competition.  That fact alone explains why cable companies like Comcast can provide such poor quality service, year after year, without concern for competitors taking their market from them.

Originally posted by Wraithone

Asia(China???)  put more emphasis on quality of life?? You are joking, right??  Its not "greed"(I'm still waiting for a non subjective definition of that...) thats destroying America. Its ignorance, apathy and expecting to be able to live at the expense of others that is destroying our country.  Its always looking to government(at any level) to deal with the consequences of our own actions(inactions) that has pretty much destroyed any hope of a better future for our children and grand children.  The corporations are just symptoms of that greater disease.  Just so long as politicians have the power to reward their friends, and punish their enemies, these problems will continue to grow until they destroy the system itself.  Real monopolies can only exist in the presence of government protection of them from competition.  That fact alone explains why cable companies like Comcast can provide such poor quality service, year after year, without concern for competitors taking their market from them.

In Australia the government is the group that set up the telecommunications industry before privatizing it, they are now finding that to put in faster internet infrastructure they will have to step in again. Unlike America, Australia does not give their pals hand outs because they are friends, Telstra (main communication giant in Australia and past government business) thought they would get the contract for the work and so tried to bypass the system (there was a US CEO at the time, interesting huh?), as a result the government plainly ignored their push because they did not follow the proper procedure.
 

In Australia Telstra maintains the dominant market in Australia simply because the government set it up, likewise the new system will most likely push Testra down to a lower level after the government sets up the new system. Notice that the old guys stay on old systems presuming the market will not change till the government steps in. The USA is in a position where the government simply won't step in to change things because they are afraid of the corporations not liking the new concepts. The very fact that the US Government now owns a chunk of GM may change such things in the car market, but we need to see it in the communications industry.

Please realize that not all governments are corrupt and easily sold out. A government is there to support all its people and if your government is not supporting you as it should then you should be swaying them with your votes (for those in democratic countries).

Sigh, It's times like these were I wish Andrew Jackson would come back from the grave.

But seriously, before you make any assumptions about the greatness/negativeness of government control, learn some history. (most notably the US economic philosophies from 1789-1850 as they provide the most political theories and outcomes for both sides of government control). Then come back here and make an educated statement about governmental control instead of posting whatever political slander that you hear from the angry old coot from down the lane.

Originally posted by ayliops

Sigh, It's times like these were I wish Andrew Jackson would come back from the grave.

 

But seriously, before you make any assumptions about the greatness/negativeness of government control, learn some history. (most notably the US economic philosophies from 1789-1850 as they provide the most political theories and outcomes for both sides of government control). Then come back here and make an educated statement about governmental control instead of posting whatever political slander that you hear from the angry old coot from down the lane.

I'd rather have Jefferson Davis... Jackson's ideas had merit, but I doubt he would last more than a year in the current system, before being taken out by some "lone nut".   Speaking of history, the Anti Federalists predicted what would naturally come from centralizing government power, but even they failed to predict just how BAD things would get.  I suspect even some of the Federalist framers would be sickened by what our nation has become. Government control of just about anything has two versions. Bad, and Worse. Anyone who knows basic economics(Austrian) knows why.  Government is not subject to market discipline as any non governmental business is. They have no incentive to produce high quality at the lowest price.  Hell, its not as if its their money they are spending...

Those who have bought into the idea of government having the "public interest" in mind, are delusional and/or ignorant. They obviously lack a clear sense of real history(not the statist pap thats spewed out by the states "educational" system and mass media), and also have a unhealthy sense of dependence on the state and its "services".  For that and many other reasons we want as LITTLE government interference with the internet as possible.  Left to government and its minions, we'd no doubt still be using it mainly for email and research data transfer.

Originally posted by Yohanu

 I'm terribly happy that i'm Swedish. We don't have to worry about bandwidth caps or slow/unstable internet ever.

My current connection at 100/100 shared with 4 of my neighbours costs me $30/month (yes it's unmetered)

Well, technically, I do believe the Swedish people do ultimately pay through higher taxes than American citizens pay, but I don't think that is a bad thing.

I personally wish my taxes were a bit higher and we had a more European style of government providing excellent infrastructure for its citizens at the cost of, yes, higher taxes.  I'm one of those horrible people that doesn't mind paying a bit more if I make a bit more; giving a bit up for the benefit of my overall community.

Unfortunately that kind of thinking usually gets you called a "socialist" (usually by somebody who couldn't remotely even define socialist philosophy if they tried...) - so we end up with low taxes, a half capitalist/half corrupt big-bank socialist system that delivers the worst of all worlds - a horribly inefficient system with SOME regulation in SOME places usually decided by special interests with the most cash to lobby our politicians; for example, big Health Insurance or Big Pharma, etc.

I find it interesting that countries like Sweden somehow manage to provide an excellent net infrastructure for their citizens and as far as I know - perhaps as a Swedish citizen you can correct me if I'm wrong but, you also have excellent freedom and privacy on that excellent broadband network, correct?

This is exactly what will happen in America - broadband will probably go to a tiered system if the government doesn't step in.  As all things in this country, those with the cash to afford limitless broadband won't have to worry, and the ever-shrinking middle class will get shafted. :)

(Personally, I'm in a great position to afford the highest tier, so it isn't about me - but I wish there was greater equality instead of our knee-jerk reaction to simply charge everyone piece-mail for what they can afford when building any piece of infrastructure in this country - be it physical or technological.)

As has been stated there is little bandwidth exchange. Just think back in the day people used to play over 56K connections.

Originally posted by someforumguy

In my country, internet is not considered to be a luxury anymore. Its as mandatory nowadays as having a phone. To show why :

• Schools expect students to have access to internet for research projects
• Phone line companies dont have a monopoly anymore, now that most internet providers sell phone contracts for phoning using your internet connection (using ADSL/glassfibre connection).
• Several government services are now encouraging citizens to use internet to contact them or even use those services (taxes, official documents etc).
• Government is funding several projects at this moment to roll out glassfibre nets to replace the copper line use in the larger cities.

This caused that internet connection stability has improved loads the last few years. Speeds have gone up for same prices and data limits have been removed.

 

I'm also from Europe and we got exactly the same politics and\or ptotocols, if you prefer, for my country as in The Netherlands..
Oh and btw same freedom policy as in Sweden is also applied in most European countries - at least for those part of the EC.

Cheers for this nice and interesting article as well as most of the responses from mmorpg.com forums users.

My ISP doesnt deserve a hug.... ARRGGHH!!

Also get capped during peak hours

I use my net for practicly everything for all my entertainment needs, playing games, watching tv shows, reading the newspaper websites and reading gaming forums.

Internet in Montreal is among the fastest and most reliable in North America, I can`t really complain. Sure there`s a limit but if you`re not into pirating then it`s really not a big deal.

great article btw, it`s true that we do take internet for granted but then again... it is granted in some countries and such. I carry a small Archos Media system with me. Whenever I need the web, I just log on and bang, in at least 35% of Montreal, I can log a wifi network without a problem. (most shops have broadcast stations)

 Honestly, too much talk about the government on this issue in this thread. Government can't control it too much because technological innovation related to the internet moves too fast for them to legislate any controls they might think of on the long term. And they already figured out how dangerous that is in the first place. Finally not forgetting that there's a huge consumer base which is completely indoctrinated with free internet spirit (it's not a bad thing, for the reference).

However, as for competition problems, that is just what it is. Bad internet is caused by lack of competition. Either this is because of monopolies, which can be helped by new competitors entering with or without government support, or because the market isn't profitable enough. In the second case, you actually need government interference to subsidize, if you count on it otherwise than you're completely ignorant of one of the first laws of capitalistic economies.

The first case is where my personal experience comes into play. There are plenty of examples here about how great EU internet is, unfortunately, Belgium is the exception on this. We're the center of Europe, highly technological, and we have about the same standards as Australia. Bandwidth limits on average 20gb putting you on 56kbs/s speed afterwards, horrible download speeds which are advertised as much higher (these days they even make a difference between assured and possible speed because it's such a problem) and the infinite having to reboot the router problems because internet can't handle it. Tadaaa!!!!

Why is this? Not because of our huge size but because we have a duopoly of 2 corporations who are the only ones actually owning a network, any others are buying off of them while they're also offering their packages.

Belgium is notorious for evading the anti-competition institutions of the EU, backing their, often formerly government owned, monopolistic enterprises. We have the problem with electricity, telephones and cellphones and the internet. 

So, what's the lesson of today? Corrupt governments are bad. Governments pumping up antitrust laws concerning the internet are good. Governments actively promoting entrance of new market players are superb. Greedy managers with monopoly positions are bastards.

I rest my case.

P.S: long live the European Commissioner for Competition Neelie Kroes hitting down our government whenever they stall

Originally posted by Pieter

 Honestly, too much talk about the government on this issue in this thread. Government can't control it too much because technological innovation related to the internet moves too fast for them to legislate any controls they might think of on the long term. And they already figured out how dangerous that is in the first place. Finally not forgetting that there's a huge consumer base which is completely indoctrinated with free internet spirit (it's not a bad thing, for the reference).

However, as for competition problems, that is just what it is. Bad internet is caused by lack of competition. Either this is because of monopolies, which can be helped by new competitors entering with or without government support, or because the market isn't profitable enough. In the second case, you actually need government interference to subsidize, if you count on it otherwise than you're completely ignorant of one of the first laws of capitalistic economies.

The first case is where my personal experience comes into play. There are plenty of examples here about how great EU internet is, unfortunately, Belgium is the exception on this. We're the center of Europe, highly technological, and we have about the same standards as Australia. Bandwidth limits on average 20gb putting you on 56kbs/s speed afterwards, horrible download speeds which are advertised as much higher (these days they even make a difference between assured and possible speed because it's such a problem) and the infinite having to reboot the router problems because internet can't handle it. Tadaaa!!!!

Why is this? Not because of our huge size but because we have a duopoly of 2 corporations who are the only ones actually owning a network, any others are buying off of them while they're also offering their packages.

Belgium is notorious for evading the anti-competition institutions of the EU, backing their, often formerly government owned, monopolistic enterprises. We have the problem with electricity, telephones and cellphones and the internet. 

So, what's the lesson of today? Corrupt governments are bad. Governments pumping up antitrust laws concerning the internet are good. Governments actively promoting entrance of new market players are superb. Greedy managers with monopoly positions are bastards.

I rest my case.

P.S: long live the European Commissioner for Competition Neelie Kroes hitting down our government whenever they stall

Saying a government is corrupt is redundant...

The primary reason for the existence of government in the first place, is the power to reward ones "friends"(those who helped one gain power), and punish ones enemies(those who backed the losing side).  EVERYTHING else is entirely secondary(if even that).  Looking at the real history of government and popular movements(revolutions are always betrayed when its time to rule), demonstrates that grim reality.

Thinking that government(just a group of people who seek power over others) is some how going to take effective action against those who have helped to place them in power is foolish at best, and delusion at worst.  What needs to happen is that *local* politicians(and those challenging those already in power) need to be pressured to alter the Sweet Deals they have with the likes of Comcast.  This is best done when they are the most vulnerable(during the mid to end part of the election cycle). 

It has also been proposed that since it was government power that allowed them to gain the right of way to all of that land required to build out their networks, that government simply *takes* over the networks, and lease access to them to what ever business wishes to have such. The amount received would then be used to maintain and expand the networks. Since the initial construction costs have LONG since been returned. This course of action is highly unlikely, since the powerful lobby groups own the politicians who would be required for such.  I can't say that I approve of this approach, but it does have more than its share of irony to recommend it.

Don't pin your hopes on any "Anti Competition" part of some government or another. If you look at the past history of such, you will find that the vast majority of targets of such crusades have been those who either didn't "contribute" enough to the faction that won power, or are the *competitors* of those who did. 

As a UK Virgin broadband subscriber I almost wept when I read this. Yes I've a wonderful 18 meg (allegedly 20 but 18 is the best I  ever tested it at) download cable channel. It is a relatively accurate figure as I've used multiple sites to test this. i've a nice enough pc too (ATi 4870 and and an intel 6600 @2.4 GHZ quad core with xp and 4 gigs of ram so it's got the 3.2 it can use). But gaming is often impossible. It turns out that the issue is packet loss and jitter. i went to pingtest.net and was surprised at what I found. I then got the people at virgin to reset my connection and while things are better they are still pretty crud in spite of their assurances everything is well.  Not sure why a cable connection should be so appalling but I get between 5% and 25% packet loss if connected in the evening (GMT). We gamers appear to be the poor relations asked to pay more but given less if my experience is shared by any others. should i be grateful for my connection; erm what am I paying for?

It is frustrating and I'd love to hear of a more responsive UK provider as I'm hacked off. I am guessing i am not unique in this experience as I've had engineers out and system resets but to little avail. What are other people's experiences? Can anybody recommend an internet provider in the UK good enough for gaming with an unlimited provision that is 8 megs plus?

Originally posted by herennow

 

As a UK Virgin broadband subscriber I almost wept when I read this. Yes I've a wonderful 18 meg (allegedly 20 but 18 is the best I  ever tested it at) download cable channel. It is a relatively accurate figure as I've used multiple sites to test this. i've a nice enough pc too (ATi 4870 and and an intel 6600 @2.4 GHZ quad core with xp and 4 gigs of ram so it's got the 3.2 it can use). But gaming is often impossible. It turns out that the issue is packet loss and jitter. i went to pingtest.net and was surprised at what I found. I then got the people at virgin to reset my connection and while things are better they are still pretty crud in spite of their assurances everything is well.  Not sure why a cable connection should be so appalling but I get between 5% and 25% packet loss if connected in the evening (GMT). We gamers appear to be the poor relations asked to pay more but given less if my experience is shared by any others. should i be grateful for my connection; erm what am I paying for?

 

It is frustrating and I'd love to hear of a more responsive UK provider as I'm hacked off. I am guessing i am not unique in this experience as I've had engineers out and system resets but to little avail. What are other people's experiences? Can anybody recommend an internet provider in the UK good enough for gaming with an unlimited provision that is 8 megs plus?

 

Packet loss and jitter can have various sources, but if you see it get much worse in the evening, then I suspect its the same as with Comcast around here. They have SERIOUSLY overloaded the nodes in this area, so that when prime time rolls around, my cable connection(top tier 8-9meg) is almost useless for playing games. Constant random disconnects and really poor control(even with a sub 100 MS ping). I've smoke pinged the routes(check DSL reports for that utility) www.dslreports.com/

I've seen wild swings in PL in the evenings some times as high as 80% plus.  Of course Comcast claims its not their fault(don't they always?...).  So before prime time hits I switch to my 1.5meg DSL connection. I've had VERY few discons with that connection. Unfortunately this area is one of many such , where those are the only broadband options available.  Comcast can only get away with such poor service because they have a lock on broadband in this area. Otherwise they would have lost this market years ago.

Originally posted by herennow

 

As a UK Virgin broadband subscriber I almost wept when I read this. Yes I've a wonderful 18 meg (allegedly 20 but 18 is the best I  ever tested it at) download cable channel. It is a relatively accurate figure as I've used multiple sites to test this. i've a nice enough pc too (ATi 4870 and and an intel 6600 @2.4 GHZ quad core with xp and 4 gigs of ram so it's got the 3.2 it can use). But gaming is often impossible. It turns out that the issue is packet loss and jitter. i went to pingtest.net and was surprised at what I found. I then got the people at virgin to reset my connection and while things are better they are still pretty crud in spite of their assurances everything is well.  Not sure why a cable connection should be so appalling but I get between 5% and 25% packet loss if connected in the evening (GMT). We gamers appear to be the poor relations asked to pay more but given less if my experience is shared by any others. should i be grateful for my connection; erm what am I paying for?

 

It is frustrating and I'd love to hear of a more responsive UK provider as I'm hacked off. I am guessing i am not unique in this experience as I've had engineers out and system resets but to little avail. What are other people's experiences? Can anybody recommend an internet provider in the UK good enough for gaming with an unlimited provision that is 8 megs plus?

 

Someone recommened fast.co.uk to me. Maybe have a look at them, I tried to change to them but unfortunatly i'm still under contract with BT (Stay away from BT as much as possible)

Originally posted by Shohadaku

 People really need to get out of this thought that Government should control everything. Government has no cash of it's own. All cash Govenment uses comes out of OUR pocket.

Your cash is the law. If you are unhappy with service, STOP paying them and gather others to resist.

We stopped it in Rochester NY when Time Warner tried to put the limited bandwidth usage on our accounts. We had mass protests, and all threatened to switch to another service even if it ment slower access. Time Warner/AOL caved, and recanted. Our service stands in our victory of RESISTANCE of what we do not agree with.

Socilist Government control is NEVER the answer we want in America.

WE THE PEOPLE have the power. Let free markets work.

Government control is SOCIALISM. Government has no Constitutional authority other then to protect our RIGHTS and our land.

O and for those who don't realize, America is not EVER intended to be a Democracy. Democracy is a scam as it is easy to fool 50% of population.

America is a Constitutional REPUBLIC. A representative Government. Meaning we vote for people to represent us. Our Constitution garantees us our Rights. Even if 51% of the people want to take your rights, they can't as your rights are protected by the Constitution.

Well, atm our Constitution is being raped by criminals twisting this country into the next Fascist Reich.

More hyperbole. Name one freedom you have lost? You can't though, not one of you doom and gloomers and fear mongers have been able to. Once you realize both parties are corrupt then you will see the light. They both take from us, just in different ways.