Originally posted by strangepower

 IRA's are worthless unless they ....um...have value.  So your point is you maintained 3 low value accounts.

Gotta love that quantity as opposed to quality.

lol, no my point is I have 3 diversified accounts which I have invested a decent amount of money for my eventual retirement. After which I have no debt. Therefore what I do with my money since I have taken care of the important issues for living is my own business.

As opposed to someone who has a lot of debt, no eye on retirement and whose money flows out faster than it comes in. Who then spends that money on things that could be considered trivial like in game pets and outfits.

If we are talking about television now then yes the normal now is to have the basic set of channels and then a set of exclusives that  the user can access with additional payment per month. Why is this alright? We as a society have accepted it as so and so it is.

ATM with subscription mmorpgs within North America as per the release of EQ, AO, and AC "back in the day"  the norm was set for a fee per month and people were happy with this so it became accepted as the norm for access to an mmorpg.

Again companies are now looking for addiitonal sources of revenue now, be it greed or necessity for the company's survival. IF we as consumers are willing to pay then it WILL become the new normal. Which in this case the OP is pointing out his discontent for. Nothing wrong with that and I support his case.

Originally posted by Apham

If we are talking about television now then yes the normal now is to have the basic set of channels and then a set of exclusives that  the user can access with additional payment per month. Why is this alright? We as a society have accepted it as so and so it is.

ATM with subscription mmorpgs within North America as per the release of EQ, AO, and AC "back in the day"  the norm was set for a fee per month and people were happy with this so it became accepted as the norm for access to an mmorpg.

Again companies are now looking for addiitonal sources of revenue now, be it greed or necessity for the company's survival. IF we as consumers are willing to pay then it WILL become the new normal. Which in this case the OP is pointing out his discontent for. Nothing wrong with that and I support his case.

 Dragon Age releasing paid DLC on the release date. Crap like that is become commonplace and accepted. Not an MMO but still in the same vein of where the gaming industry is going.

BEFORE when games were stigmas of nerds and geeks this shit didnt happen.

I bet you when Blizzard decided they'd put vanity pets out for sale, they did it just to see how much commotion and bitching it would bring about, I bet you they're laughing it up.

Originally posted by Apham

If we are talking about television now then yes the normal now is to have the basic set of channels and then a set of exclusives that  the user can access with additional payment per month. Why is this alright? We as a society have accepted it as so and so it is.

ATM with subscription mmorpgs within North America as per the release of EQ, AO, and AC "back in the day"  the norm was set for a fee per month and people were happy with this so it became accepted as the norm for access to an mmorpg.

Again companies are now looking for addiitonal sources of revenue now, be it greed or necessity for the company's survival. IF we as consumers are willing to pay then it WILL become the new normal. Which in this case the OP is pointing out his discontent for. Nothing wrong with that and I support his case.

But it's all about perceived value.

If people found that paying for premium content was a huge rip off they wouldn't pay for it. Or in some cases shouldn't pay for it.

If someone charged 200 dollars for an in game item I don't believe most people would buy it. It wouldn't be worth it. But if I'm in a game and spending 5 dollars so I don't look like a clown or so that I can change my character's looks would make me more satisfied then I am willing to do so as it really isn't a big deal to me.

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by strangepower

 IRA's are worthless unless they ....um...have value.  So your point is you maintained 3 low value accounts.

Gotta love that quantity as opposed to quality.

 

lol, no my point is I have 3 diversified accounts which I have invested a decent amount of money for my eventual retirement. After which I have no debt. Therefore what I do with my money since I have taken care of the important issues for living is my own business.

Obviously what you do about your money is brag about it.   Those who brag generally do so because there is a truth they are avoiding.

So whats your truth:  Are you just a broke ass trying to front, or are your diversified IRAs really quite small... so you are telling the truth in saying you have them, but attempting to make the public believe they are bigger than reality in order to lend your arguments a false sense of credibility.

For the record:  In algebra one of the first lessons imparted is to never compare apples to oranges.  To do so is poor logic and it will result in an erroneous conclusion.

Comparing Cable Television add ons to MMO add ons is comparing apples to oranges.  You have arrived at an erroneous conclusion (and also invented a straw man to beat on... hey if youre picking on MMOs youre also picking on cable TV!).  Check your logic.  And your argumentative tactice.  Theyre both rubbish.

Originally posted by strangepower

Originally posted by Apham

If we are talking about television now then yes the normal now is to have the basic set of channels and then a set of exclusives that  the user can access with additional payment per month. Why is this alright? We as a society have accepted it as so and so it is.

ATM with subscription mmorpgs within North America as per the release of EQ, AO, and AC "back in the day"  the norm was set for a fee per month and people were happy with this so it became accepted as the norm for access to an mmorpg.

Again companies are now looking for addiitonal sources of revenue now, be it greed or necessity for the company's survival. IF we as consumers are willing to pay then it WILL become the new normal. Which in this case the OP is pointing out his discontent for. Nothing wrong with that and I support his case.

 

 Dragon Age releasing paid DLC on the release date. Crap like that is become commonplace and accepted.

Again I point toward the xbox live model thriving on the console but not on the PC, commonplace and accepted because we accept it. If we did not accept it and did not pay for it, it would cease to exist.

I for one support DLC in the form of additional content (the same thing as supporting expansions, paying for additional content to an existing game). I do not support paying for a pet penguin or xp boost potions. Again I SUPPORT content addition and paying for it but there are things that you just have to say, wtf why should I pay for that?

Do I have the means to support such itemization yes I can easily afford it, but will I? No it is a matter of principal.

Originally posted by dar_es_balat

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by strangepower

 IRA's are worthless unless they ....um...have value.  So your point is you maintained 3 low value accounts.

Gotta love that quantity as opposed to quality.

 

lol, no my point is I have 3 diversified accounts which I have invested a decent amount of money for my eventual retirement. After which I have no debt. Therefore what I do with my money since I have taken care of the important issues for living is my own business.

 

Obviously what you do about your money is brag about it.   Those who brag generally do so because there is a truth they are avoiding.

So whats your truth:  Are you just a broke ass trying to front, or are your diversified IRAs really quite small... so you are telling the truth in saying you have them, but attempting to make the public believe they are bigger than reality in order to lend your arguments a false sense of credibility.

For the record:  In algebra one of the first lessons imparted is to never compare apples to oranges.  To do so is poor logic and it will result in an erroneous conclusion.

Comparing Cable Television add ons to MMO add ons is comparing apples to oranges.  You have arrived at an erroneous conclusion (and also invented a straw man to beat on... hey if youre picking on MMOs youre also picking on cable TV!).  Check your logic.  And your argumentative tactice.  Theyre both rubbish.

That's a very cynical way of looking at the world and one I do not share.

Regardless, the point is that I have taken steps toward my retirement and have no debt. Therefore I am not someone who should be using my money elsewhere as I have taken care of the important aspects of living. As opposed to a kid who is using his mother's credit card to buy things or the individual who doesnt' take care of their expenses and spends their money on games and game extras.

So  what I do with my extra money is my own business.

And I still maintain that spending additional money on such things like extra movies which used to be included with regular cable is the same thing as spending additional money on trivial items in a game.

You have a basic service and you then have the choice to spend extra on the things you want.

I think people are missing the point, this isn't about whether you're willing to spend the money in a cash shop or not. If we're already paying $15 a month we shouldn't have to spend the extra cash to get cool items we should be able to get those items through playing the game!

Now I don't mind cash shops I think they have a place in MMOs but F2P is where they should stay. I like what Turbine has done with DDO you can play completely free or pay a monthly fee for VIP status and get all the character slots, races, adventures etc.. or you can play free and buy whatever you need in the cash shop when you want it and not have to worry about that monthly fee. It has worked pretty well for DDO so far and I wouldn't mind seeing more companies try this model out.

Originally posted by vinzone

I think people are missing the point, this isn't about whether you willing to spend the money in a cash shop or not. If we're already paying $15 a month we shouldn't have to spend the extra cash to get cool items we should be able to get those items through playing the game!

Now I don't mind cash shops I think they have a place in MMOs but F2P is where they should stay. I like what Turbine has done with DDO you can play completely free or pay a monthly fee for VIP status and get all the character slots, races, adventures etc.. or you can play free and buy whatever you need in the cash shop when you want it and not have to worry about that monthly fee. It has worked pretty well for DDO so far and I wouldn't mind seeing more companies try this model out.

I also like what Turbine has done. However, I would think that there are players who would say that any use of money in order to allow one to access game items or conent is wrong.

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by dar_es_balat

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by strangepower

 IRA's are worthless unless they ....um...have value.  So your point is you maintained 3 low value accounts.

Gotta love that quantity as opposed to quality.

 

lol, no my point is I have 3 diversified accounts which I have invested a decent amount of money for my eventual retirement. After which I have no debt. Therefore what I do with my money since I have taken care of the important issues for living is my own business.

 

Obviously what you do about your money is brag about it.   Those who brag generally do so because there is a truth they are avoiding.

So whats your truth:  Are you just a broke ass trying to front, or are your diversified IRAs really quite small... so you are telling the truth in saying you have them, but attempting to make the public believe they are bigger than reality in order to lend your arguments a false sense of credibility.

For the record:  In algebra one of the first lessons imparted is to never compare apples to oranges.  To do so is poor logic and it will result in an erroneous conclusion.

Comparing Cable Television add ons to MMO add ons is comparing apples to oranges.  You have arrived at an erroneous conclusion (and also invented a straw man to beat on... hey if youre picking on MMOs youre also picking on cable TV!).  Check your logic.  And your argumentative tactice.  Theyre both rubbish.

 

That's a very cynical way of looking at the world and one I do not share.

Regardless, the point is that I have taken steps toward my retirement and have no debt. Therefore I am not someone who should be using my money elsewhere as I have taken care of the important aspects of living.

Therefore what I do with my extra money is my own business.

And I still maintain that spending additional money on such things like extra movies which used to be included with regular cable is the same thing as spending additional money on trivial items in a game.

You have a basic service and you then have the choice to spend extra on the things you want.

It seems to me you are looking at things from a monetary perspective only, and not from the perspective of the type of service offered.

Adopting that approach -

Would you consider it then proper to have a Supermarket offer Corn Flakes,  Eggs, Milk, and Ground Beef to its customers at standard prices, but then have them pay  entrance fees into premium areas where they could then diversify their cereals, dairy, and meat choices to better suit their tastes?  Depending on the level of diversity your fees could go up substantially, but so could your level of enjoyment!  Oh, youll still need to pay for the cost of food as well!  Its not free you know!

From a monetary standpoint this makes sense.  The consumer can obtain the basics, and pays extra for variety.  From a corporate standpoint, this also makes sense.   More money!  From a personal standpoint however this is nonsensical on many levels.

If you dont understand the fallacy of your logical path after looking at this example of where the path leads... well I can only say your passion for being correct is likely interfering with your understanding!

Originally posted by Apham

 

 Dragon Age releasing paid DLC on the release date. Crap like that is become commonplace and accepted.

this case the OP is pointing out his discontent for. Nothing wrong with that and I support his case.

 

Again I point toward the xbox live model thriving on the console but not on the PC, commonplace and accepted because we accept it. If we did not accept it and did not pay for it, it would cease to exist.

I for one support DLC in the form of additional content (the same thing as supporting expansions, paying for additional content to an existing game). I do not support paying for a pet penguin or xp boost potions. Again I SUPPORT content addition and paying for it but there are things that you just have to say, wtf why should I pay for that?

Do I have the means to support such itemization yes I can easily afford it, but will I? No it is a matter of principal.

 

I understand your plea, being a Live subscriber and avid PC gamer. I bought DAO for the PC... additional content (levels, items, etc) that is released as DLC on the games release date IS NOT AN EXPANSION.

Its finished content that was intentionally left out as to provide an avenue for an "acceptance" of the paid DLC.

This would be otherwise if say they played it coy, and released 60-90 days after the games initial release.

Originally posted by vinzone

I think people are missing the point, this isn't about whether you're willing to spend the money in a cash shop or not. If we're already paying $15 a month we shouldn't have to spend the extra cash to get cool items we should be able to get those items through playing the game!

^^^^ Agreed. I myself as I have been posting in this thread began slipping on the point myself. If you are already paying for service from the company why should you pay more in addition to get the cool items. Awesome pets have existed within the game beforehand, usually requiring a grind but implemented into the game play stemming from the monthly fee. Having to pay in addition to the monthly fee deters from the game and is in bad taste imo.

 Greed and elitism! Now available to ruin your virtual worlds as well! Act now!

Originally posted by Rinna

Free Realms, Wizard 101, Blizzards new store... all selling items for additional money over and above their monthly fee. 

I don't subscribe to many asian games but I've heard that this type of gaming is the norm in Asia.  You pay your monthly fee, then on top of that, you pay additional money for everything else.  Items, Mounts, non combat fun pets, clothes etc... all cost additional money over and above the monthly fee.

Sony's Free Realms charges you for "Station Cash" so that you can buy the best in-game items.  Wizard 101 has a "Crown" System... you buy crowns outside of your monthly fee for armor, mounts, weapons.  Blizzards new store... the panda and KT pets... 10 bucks for each OUTSIDE the normal monthly fee.  (Yes I know half of the panda purchase goes to a charity).  You can even go further and look at Club Pogo's "gem system"... pay a monthly fee... oh but by the way, this subscription doesn't get you the best stuff... only a basic set of stuff... everything else is extra.

I would hate to see this become the trend for N. American gaming.  Where out of greed, eventually we make it acceptable for gaming companies to not only charge us a monthly fee, but to bend us over every chance they get if we want the coolest, best, most fun "stuff" in game.

Don't pay for additional pixels - please.  All gamers should band together to insure this practice doesn't become a trend.  Start paying for out of game pixels now and tomorrow we'll have to pay for everything that is currently part of a "normal monthly subscription'.

Yes band together and play Asheron's Call, no extra pixels costs there :-).

But free plug for the game I want everyone to come play with me aside, I don't play games that have any extra costs. Clearly many people aren't bothered by the extra costs because more of these pop up and keep making money. I just hope that the normal, sub fee only games stay around for those of us who won't play games with malls.

Originally posted by strangepower

I understand your plea, being a Live subscriber and avid PC gamer. I bought DAO for the PC... additional content (levels, items, etc) that is released as DLC on the games release date IS NOT AN EXPANSION.

Its finished content that was intentionally left out as to provide an avenue for an "acceptance" of the paid DLC.

This would be otherwise if say they played it coy, and released 60-90 days after the games initial release.

Agreed with you entirely on this point and I thought it was in bad taste also. I love DA:O I have not bought the DLC because of this. That is my stand against such types of practice whether it be from the developer or producers. If enough people agreed with us and did not buy the DLC or support it this type of thing would not be done again in the future.

Yes, I also have no issue with a free-to-play MMO charging money for in-game items to procure revenue or profit.

I have an issue with MMO's charging monthly subscriptions and THEN charging far above that, in bits and pieces for additional items that whether cosmetic or actual stats make you better than everyone else.  That feels like a trend companies are attempting to guide us (like sheep), to enhance their bottom line.   Someone said they wouldn't pay $200 dollars for an in game sword... but they nickel and dime you to the point that you have spent that.

Wow... 11 million x 14 bucks = 154 million a month?  But they need an additional 10 bucks for a Kelthuzud cat pet?

We have the ability to choose what our mmo's are going to feel like 5 and 10 years from now. 

Don't like it? Don't pay.  It's really that simple.  I enjoy this novelty on a daily basis.

Originally posted by Rinna

I have an issue with MMO's charging monthly subscriptions and THEN charging far above that

Here is the problem. You are not being charged beyond the monthly. You are choosing to buy the extra. And you are welcome to do so.

Ever go to a fast food joint, and get asked if you want to up-size.

Same thing.

Originally posted by dar_es_balat

Originally posted by Sovrath

 

That's a very cynical way of looking at the world and one I do not share.

Regardless, the point is that I have taken steps toward my retirement and have no debt. Therefore I am not someone who should be using my money elsewhere as I have taken care of the important aspects of living.

Therefore what I do with my extra money is my own business.

And I still maintain that spending additional money on such things like extra movies which used to be included with regular cable is the same thing as spending additional money on trivial items in a game.

You have a basic service and you then have the choice to spend extra on the things you want.

 

It seems to me you are looking at things from a monetary perspective only, and not from the perspective of the type of service offered.

Adopting that approach -

Would you consider it then proper to have a Supermarket offer Corn Flakes,  Eggs, Milk, and Ground Beef to its customers at standard prices, but then have them pay  entrance fees into premium areas where they could then diversify their cereals, dairy, and meat choices to better suit their tastes?  Depending on the level of diversity your fees could go up substantially, but so could your level of enjoyment!  Oh, youll still need to pay for the cost of food as well!  Its not free you know!

From a monetary standpoint this makes sense.  The consumer can obtain the basics, and pays extra for variety.  From a corporate standpoint, this also makes sense.   More money!  From a personal standpoint however this is nonsensical on many levels.

If you dont understand the fallacy of your logical path after looking at this example of where the path leads... well I can only say your passion for being correct is likely interfering with your understanding!

No I can agree to that point.

but surely you are aware that there are medical offices where people pay a premium in order to have unlimited time with their doctors, can get batteries of tests for no additional fees and where there are no waiting times.

One can say that a person shouldn't have to pay that but they do because it is of value to them.

So in answer to your example, no, I wouldn't shop there. But I bet some people would if there were perceived benefits over shopping at a regular store.

So then broaden the point. People will pay extra for things that they perceive are a value to them. It has nothing to do with me being "right" or not. It has everything to do with people spending their money on things that matter to them. Whether or not a sector of society agrees with it or not.

If I am given the choice of purchasing an in game items (and to be clear, one that doesn't give me a step over other players as I am not for that) and I can afford it (meanign I shouldn't be spending my money on bills or food or medicine)  and it is worth it to me I will buy it.

Players spend their hard earned (hopefully) cash on in game gold and characters that are already high level. One can assert that this is ridiculous because they have allowed others to play the game for them but the reality is that there money has allowed them access to something that they desired. I don't agree with this but it doesn't invalidate that they were willing to spend this money on something they wanted.

People pay for things they value.

You do not need an analogy to explain it, people have been trained to be consumers, not smart ones at that. Eventually greed will ruin most of the MMO scene and it will "reset" when someone pushes something out that has a reasonable business model. Then greed will creep back in and see how far we'll go.

I don't mind paying to be serviced.

Buying items..

The amount of work and time spent to type in your credit card information..

Makes one proud for the amount of work put into it.

I agree.  The core of your statement is absolutely correct.  I also pay for thing I value, and have done so in MMOs.

The issue comes from the nature of the consumer and the nature of the service provider, and hence the difference in the type of service being offered must be considered when one offers a premium model based service.

In the medical example above it is clearly exploitation of the patients to charge for premium services.  Why?

Because it is in the patients nature to want to live.   The doctor is therefore taking advantage of the patient for personal profit, moving other patients back one notch for each premium subscriber.  Not only is this unethical from a personal standpoint, but it clearly is in violation of the Doctors Hippocratic Oath to treat all patients in need.  The doctor has added a caveat to those seeking his treatment.

With regard to MMO gaming it is in the players nature to be greater than they are in reality.

Nobody plays MMOs to be an average Joe.  We play to do things we cant otherwise do.  At its core it is basically driven by a need to stand out in some way from the crowd.  How that desire is expressed is as individual as the players themselves.   A subscription based model gives all players the same tools to make this happen, and lets the players have at it in a relatively non predatory fashion.  Sure there is profit generated, but it is not generated rapaciously.

Paying for extra items ingame... this is indeed rapacious.   Many people who play MMOs play because they are hopelessly average, or even below average in reality.   Massive amounts of extra charges can and do cause these types of individuals severe problems.   I personally have known one gamer who committed suicide after driving himself into a financial crisis on the game Ashoron's Call.  This game was a subscription game where Ebay was used by players seeking to go above and beyond what their own gaming provided them.     As recently as a month ago a gaming friend lost his house due to being unable to pay his mortgage for months.  Why?  He had spent THOUSANDS on the game Jade Dynasty, which has only been out since June!  And hes not the only one who has seen a large bill come from this game the AVERAGE Jade Dynasty player spends well over $50 a month on gaming fees.

There comes a point where we as gamers and as individuals need to take a look at what the standards and practices are of the corporations producing our modes of entertainment.   Rapacious companies should be avoided.   Advantageous tactics should be curtailed.

Originally posted by Irishoak

You do not need an analogy to explain it, people have been trained to be consumers, not smart ones at that. Eventually greed will ruin most of the MMO scene and it will "reset" when someone pushes something out that has a reasonable business model. Then greed will creep back in and see how far we'll go.

I agree, it will continue the trend because people will continue to buy whatever they want because it's their God given right and who cares what it does to gaming!!  :D

I didn't say you HAVE to pay additional money above the subscription NOW, but that's where the trend is heading and by showing game companies that we're more than willing to pay pay pay... that is where we will end up.

My point is NOT that you pay for a good service rendered and that everyone is entitled to blah blah a Mercedes over a Yugo.

My point is that what you are getting NOW for free... or for your monthly subscription fee.... you will soon be paying for as part of the trend.  If you are paying for additional items or goodies now... you will HAVE TO PAY for them tomorrow, and you WILL NOT have a choice.