The problem with letting the population change the world [too much] is that you are putting the lunatics in charge of the asylum.  The people who would make the most changes (the ones that play the most) are the last people you would want to make decisions for the rest of the population.

Originally posted by Mrbloodworth

Wurm online.

I would play Wurm if it were a bit more atmospheric and not so damn quiet, the game looks nice, but the silence kills me.  So do the weak combat mechanics, and the world really doesn't change, abandoned stuff never really gets removed, it just sits there.  I suppose it makes exploration a bit interesting.

Originally posted by Scottc

Aside from Asheron's Call I mean.  I will use it to provide an example for what I mean.  In Asheron's Call the world changed quite a bit, and I don't mean new areas were added to grind, I mean existing areas changed and updated.  Arwic was a town in Asheron's Call.  It went through several changes, it started as a small quiet open town, and eventually it was destroyed by invading shadow spires, and left an empty smoldering crater, and then it started to get rebuilt over time next to the crater up until it was a fully completed walled in town.  These obviously didn't happen real time (game was released in 99), but with each patch the changes came.  That was just one small example from the game.  The environment changed too, like one month this big demon guy Bael'Zharon got released onto the world and the rivers and ocean turned red, and during the winter the landscape was covered with snow.  Are there any games out there with anything like this? or were there in the past?

I remember the destruction of Arwic, all of the mules fell to their death upon login, it was great!

Originally posted by Kyntor

The problem with letting the population change the world [too much] is that you are putting the lunatics in charge of the asylum.  The people who would make the most changes (the ones that play the most) are the last people you would want to make decisions for the rest of the population.

 

As I said in the original post, it was the devs changing the world in Asheron's Call, and it could be the devs doing it in any other game.  However giving the players the tools to do it themselves is not inherently bad anyway.  What you're saying here is akin to "ban knives because people use them to stab people", despite the fact that they are useful tools used for many different other more legal and legitimate purposes.

Earth and Beyond changed over time as the story progressed. Very fun world to explore :)

Mankind Online evolved and changed, landscape, territories and such...

I think Dofus changes due to it's echosystem mechanics.

Originally posted by Scottc

As I said in the original post, it was the devs changing the world in Asheron's Call, and it could be the devs doing it in any other game.  However giving the players the tools to do it themselves is not inherently bad anyway.  What you're saying here is akin to "ban knives because people use them to stab people", despite the fact that they are useful tools used for many different other more legal and legitimate purposes.

You cannot compare a real world society to the society of an internet game.  In the real world, there are consequences to actions and behavior.  In internet games, there are no consequences.  In games, one person entertainment should not be more important than anothers and one person's freedom to change the world should not trump another person's freedom not have their world change.

I do believe that minor changes could work if  there were stern consequences, but it would probably have to be micro-managed by the developer.

Originally posted by Scottc

Originally posted by Mrbloodworth

Wurm online.

I would play Wurm if it were a bit more atmospheric and not so damn quiet, the game looks nice, but the silence kills me.  So do the weak combat mechanics, and the world really doesn't change, abandoned stuff never really gets removed, it just sits there.  I suppose it makes exploration a bit interesting.

I won't dispute your other points, but yes, things do decay and are removed. But it is one of the only MMO's where you can shape the terrain, and every single thing that is in the world other than trees, a player built and put there.

Originally posted by Kyntor

Originally posted by Scottc

As I said in the original post, it was the devs changing the world in Asheron's Call, and it could be the devs doing it in any other game.  However giving the players the tools to do it themselves is not inherently bad anyway.  What you're saying here is akin to "ban knives because people use them to stab people", despite the fact that they are useful tools used for many different other more legal and legitimate purposes.

 

You cannot compare a real world society to the society of an internet game.  In the real world, there are consequences to actions and behavior.  In internet games, there are no consequences.  In games, one person entertainment should not be more important than anothers and one person's freedom to change the world should not trump another person's freedom not have their world change.

 

I do believe that minor changes could work if  there were stern consequences, but it would probably have to be micro-managed by the developer.

 

I think it can be compared, but the game has to be designed properly for it.  There can easily be consequences for your actions in MMORPGs, you've just been playing the wrong ones.  Unfortunately the only way I've seen consequences for actions done is through PvP.  Look at Eve Online, a big lone corporation doesn't attack a massive alliance, that's a good way to get screwed over.  In these open PvP games where you lose stuff when you die, it makes you think twice about who you kill, because it could have lasting repercussions within the "society" created by the players.  In the same vein, if players could build cities and walls anywhere they please, I imagine it would take a decent amount of time to create such things, and a decent amount of resources as well, and as such, if they were to say wall off an important quest dungeon, they would likely piss off the wrong people and be in a world of hurt as well as lose their wall which took them time and resources to create.  Aside from that, game mechanics could be enacted to prevent such problems, like preventing anything from being constructed within a few miles of an important quest location.  Sure a clan could be a huge wall around the radius, but that likely wouldn't be cheap.  I assume these are the issues you're talking about.

To simply say these sort of game mechanics should be avoided because they could be used for griefing purposes is naive and it really is one in the same with real world laws meant to "protect you".  For higher highs, you must have the potential for lower lows.

If what I wrote above isn't what you meant, please clarify.

Sure, WOW has done world-changing stuff. Examples:

1) Isle of Quel'Danas

The zone progress from mostly controlled by hostile mobs, to opening up more quest locations & quests. Each server goes at a different rate. I believe there 3 or 4 stages.

2) Argent Tournmant

From half-built to fully built (changed by patches though)

Originally posted by Scottc

Originally posted by AndrewGoat

 I've never truly seen an MMO with actual immersion like you wish there to be. I have seen MUDs that do it, as I've stated in another thread I created, but never an MMO.

Also, as I stated in that thread, I believe that the future of MMOs should be very similar to what you're asking and what I've seen in MUDs, but what it WILL be, in most likelihood, is not what we WANT it to be or think it SHOULD be.

Which, I believe, is a true shame.

Asheron's Call... heh..  Even though it had awful graphics, the changing world and live storyline that advanced for everyone at the same rate and time is what made it immersive.  The fact that you could ask about the history of a given place in the world and there would be several paragraphs on stuff that had happened ingame there.  I had finally figured out why I wasn't enjoying the current Asheron's Call as much as I enjoyed it 10 or so years ago which led to this thread.  It was because the world became static and unchanging.  They merely added new zones with monthly patches, occasionally they would update an existing area, but it was nothing like before.

Well they did just recently have 2 different dungeons that expanded each month for several months. 

In another one a few towns got attacked over the course of a few weeks, then you met a man who you helped try to stop it and his story unfolded. A dungone opened up the 4th week which led to a hideout. Each month the part of the dungeon players had completed was destroyed and the next section opened up until finally you rescued his wife and battled the villian behind it.

They also did an evolving lost portal town, where you find this town stuck in portal space and as the months go on you try to help them find out what is happening. Then one month the whole dungeon was destroyed and the NPCs gone, but there was a random appearing portal through out the world that brought you back to the time they first showed up and you began a quest where each week you helped them to see they are doomed and prevent the history from happening.

The graveyard has expanded as well.

So they are still doing evolving changes to the game on top of the monthly quest additions. And they've been focusing on expanding the game itself, they added a quest journal and a two handed weapon skill as well as a new tinkering/crafting skill.

Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

Originally posted by Scottc

Originally posted by AndrewGoat

 I've never truly seen an MMO with actual immersion like you wish there to be. I have seen MUDs that do it, as I've stated in another thread I created, but never an MMO.

Also, as I stated in that thread, I believe that the future of MMOs should be very similar to what you're asking and what I've seen in MUDs, but what it WILL be, in most likelihood, is not what we WANT it to be or think it SHOULD be.

Which, I believe, is a true shame.

Asheron's Call... heh..  Even though it had awful graphics, the changing world and live storyline that advanced for everyone at the same rate and time is what made it immersive.  The fact that you could ask about the history of a given place in the world and there would be several paragraphs on stuff that had happened ingame there.  I had finally figured out why I wasn't enjoying the current Asheron's Call as much as I enjoyed it 10 or so years ago which led to this thread.  It was because the world became static and unchanging.  They merely added new zones with monthly patches, occasionally they would update an existing area, but it was nothing like before.

 

Well they did just recently have 2 different dungeons that expanded each month for several months. 

 

In another one a few towns got attacked over the course of a few weeks, then you met a man who you helped try to stop it and his story unfolded. A dungone opened up the 4th week which led to a hideout. Each month the part of the dungeon players had completed was destroyed and the next section opened up until finally you rescued his wife and battled the villian behind it.

 

They also did an evolving lost portal town, where you find this town stuck in portal space and as the months go on you try to help them find out what is happening. Then one month the whole dungeon was destroyed and the NPCs gone, but there was a random appearing portal through out the world that brought you back to the time they first showed up and you began a quest where each week you helped them to see they are doomed and prevent the history from happening.

 

The graveyard has expanded as well.

 

So they are still doing evolving changes to the game on top of the monthly quest additions. And they've been focusing on expanding the game itself, they added a quest journal and a two handed weapon skill as well as a new tinkering/crafting skill.

I just can't stand all the non game related crap they've added like suits and penguins and all that other bullshit that doesn't fit in Asheron's Call's lore.

Originally posted by Scottc

Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

Originally posted by Scottc

Originally posted by AndrewGoat

 I've never truly seen an MMO with actual immersion like you wish there to be. I have seen MUDs that do it, as I've stated in another thread I created, but never an MMO.

Also, as I stated in that thread, I believe that the future of MMOs should be very similar to what you're asking and what I've seen in MUDs, but what it WILL be, in most likelihood, is not what we WANT it to be or think it SHOULD be.

Which, I believe, is a true shame.

Asheron's Call... heh..  Even though it had awful graphics, the changing world and live storyline that advanced for everyone at the same rate and time is what made it immersive.  The fact that you could ask about the history of a given place in the world and there would be several paragraphs on stuff that had happened ingame there.  I had finally figured out why I wasn't enjoying the current Asheron's Call as much as I enjoyed it 10 or so years ago which led to this thread.  It was because the world became static and unchanging.  They merely added new zones with monthly patches, occasionally they would update an existing area, but it was nothing like before.

 

Well they did just recently have 2 different dungeons that expanded each month for several months. 

 

In another one a few towns got attacked over the course of a few weeks, then you met a man who you helped try to stop it and his story unfolded. A dungone opened up the 4th week which led to a hideout. Each month the part of the dungeon players had completed was destroyed and the next section opened up until finally you rescued his wife and battled the villian behind it.

 

They also did an evolving lost portal town, where you find this town stuck in portal space and as the months go on you try to help them find out what is happening. Then one month the whole dungeon was destroyed and the NPCs gone, but there was a random appearing portal through out the world that brought you back to the time they first showed up and you began a quest where each week you helped them to see they are doomed and prevent the history from happening.

 

The graveyard has expanded as well.

 

So they are still doing evolving changes to the game on top of the monthly quest additions. And they've been focusing on expanding the game itself, they added a quest journal and a two handed weapon skill as well as a new tinkering/crafting skill.

I just can't stand all the non game related crap they've added like suits and penguins and all that other bullshit that doesn't fit in Asheron's Call's lore.

Aren't all the games doing this crap? It's like Kindergarten out there these days.

Originally posted by Splinki

Originally posted by TheHatter

Fallen Earth is the only one I can think of that's similiar.

 

Originally posted by voidchaser

And before I get flamed No I don't play WoW.

 

Yeah, I'm playing FE and I was wondering if you could explain that further?

---

And Void, why does it matter if you do play WoW? I play WoW, hell why not, its a decent-enough game for the most part. :P

---

And to the OP. If I had to choose a game that "changed" over time, I would have to say Ryzom fits the bill. It has a tendency to change.

I think he stated "why" it matters. Because on MMORPG.com, if you play WoW....you WILL get flamed. It's not "kewl" to play WoW, and the WoW Haters Clique is in full force on these forums. Beware!  (lol)

Haters....pffft....people that place more value in being "right" than in freedom of choice.  Funny thing is....they're not right, OR free themselves.

Originally posted by girlgeek

Originally posted by Splinki

Originally posted by TheHatter

Fallen Earth is the only one I can think of that's similiar.

 

Originally posted by voidchaser

And before I get flamed No I don't play WoW.

 

Yeah, I'm playing FE and I was wondering if you could explain that further?

---

And Void, why does it matter if you do play WoW? I play WoW, hell why not, its a decent-enough game for the most part. :P

---

And to the OP. If I had to choose a game that "changed" over time, I would have to say Ryzom fits the bill. It has a tendency to change.

 

I think he stated "why" it matters. Because on MMORPG.com, if you play WoW....you WILL get flamed. It's not "kewl" to play WoW, and the WoW Haters Clique is in full force on these forums. Beware!  (lol)

Haters....pffft....people that place more value in being "right" than in freedom of choice.  Funny thing is....they're not right, OR free themselves.

An MMORPG without player freedom isn't really a choice though. ;)  A game like WoW is inferior in the minds of anyone who has played the MMORPGs of old.  The problem with WoW is that it's designed as if it's a singleplayer game, and it very clearly designed as a business model before a source of entertainment.  I know WoW players don't enjoy most of the game they're playing, they don't like doing an instance and winning it but receiving nothing.  The only reason they don't get the epics they want is because if they do get them, how will they keep paying Blizzard?  It's this nefarious game design that makes people dislike WoW.