Originally posted by Grayseven

Capitalism: Love it or go Commie

Seriously, people are complaining about paying $15 USD a month for a game? How many hours do gamers average of playtime for that money? If you play 2-3 hours a day, 5 days a week and maybe 5 hours a day on weekends, that comes out to a max of 25 hours a week. Multiply by 4 weeks in a month and you get about $.15 USD per hour of game play.

If you are a "hardcore" gamer, that drops down to pennies an hour.

Think about some of the other things you do for fun, how long they take, and how much they cost.

Yesterday, I spent 6 hours in a sports bar with friends. I played two games of Golden Tee golf ($8 USD), had 3 drinks plus unlimited Iced Tea ($17 USD) and a Blackened Chicken salad ($8.50 USD) for a grand total of $33.50 USD + tax and tip, or just under $5.60 USD per hour of entertainment.

I had fun, enjoyed myself and socialized. Kinda like what I do in an MMO, only for about $5.45 USD more per hour than I normally pay.

This is just an opinion, but it seems to me that the F2P crowd has the attention span of a puppy in a pre-school. Without any vested interest in any game, they can bounce from game to game without any worries of missing out on something or growing a character to enjoy different content. Whatever new shiny comes out of the Asian grindshops gets their interest until they blink and forget what they are doing and are caught by the next shiny F2P to crop up.

Thanks, but I'll finance a team dedicated to keeping me interested with my quarter an hour instead of buying of buying a Purple Coat of Ling Ling in a "free" MMO RMT for a couple of bucks so I can hit the Cave of Red Posies with a bunch of 12 year olds.

capitalism/communism hasn't much to do with  people that whine about  subscription fee's, really.

i find the title of your post insulting

I agree completly with this topic.

It's $15 for a month of entertainment. As plenty of people have pointed out time and time again, you go out and do just about anything on a single weekend night and it costs more for those few hours of fun, as compared to an entire month.

People are cheap now a days (and lazy but that isn't with in the scope of this topic) they want everything for pennies or for free. Then they wonder why the economy collapses and why all their jobs are lost to overseas where they can pay workers 10 cents an hour to make cheap products for the cheap people to buy.

I personally have no desire ever to play a f2p game and I hope that enough companies stick with the subscription model and don't cave in to the demands of the cheap who think they are deserved everything for free. When I buy any product I don't go for the cheap crap I go for quality and I don't mind paying for it. The same is with MMOs, I have no problem paying $15 a month for a quality MMO and I avoid the crap that is made which tries to get a piece of the action.

im cheap i dont deny that as are most ppl. i mean come on everyone wants it cheaper better faster but the thing is i dont want to spend my money on a game thats not going to keep my attention for more then a week.  i understand one must make money and that they want to charge a sub for a game but if that game is garbage i find it higly unacceptable. the one game that im really gearing this rant about is alganon i think its very sad when a company trys to pull preorders for a game not even in beta at the time and to think they want me to pay a monthly sub for it is like a slap in the face imho.

 My only input:

"The game originally cost standard AOL hourly rates to play. Depending on the user's rate plan, this could be USD$6.00 per hour for a flat rate plan, or $8.00 per hour during premium (daytime) hours or $4.00 during off hours."

"Near the end of its run in 1997 the game had 115,000 players and typically hosted 2,000 adventurers during prime evening hours, a 4000% increase over 1991."

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neverwinter_Nights_(AOL_game)

Seriously, Stop complaining. The game had a few thousand players when it started. Another source I cannot find at the moment stated that it was not uncommon for people to spend in the hundreds per month to play the game.

And you guys are complaining about $15/month? Tisk tisk.

NOTE: I purposely didn't include the part about it becoming a free part of an AOL subscription at the end of it's run. That's not what I was referencing.

Originally posted by Ginkeq

Originally posted by MMOnsterkill

$15.00

That is pretty much the industry standard monthly subscription fee to play an MMO nowadays. That being said, there are a lot of people that don't seem to understand why this fee is necessary -- and they swear on their lives that it's because the publishers / developers are trying to be greedy. Did you ever wonder who was working on all those lovely content updates that you bitch for? ACTUAL PEOPLE who have families, bills to pay, and taxes. Game developers don't make a whole lot of money, but it does take a bit to pay a team of 50 engineers, artists, and designers. Not to mention just running a company and an online service(s) has a lot of upkeep cost as well.

But like any business game developers are trying to make a profit on their work. And why shouldn't they? They're working a hell of a lot harder than you are. It's not uncommon for them to work 80-100 hour work weeks on salary. Don't know what that means? NO OVER TIME PAY. So stop bitching about such a ridiculously small fee, get a job so you can see how ridiculously small it is, and stop using your parent's credit card for online purchases.

 

I don't think these MMORPG companies deserve $15 a month.  The quality of MMORPGs have been deteriorating.  I think people should just stop playing bad MMORPGs.

If all the crappy MMORPG developers went out of business, we might get something remotely decent.  I don't care if they work 100 hours a week if they produce garbage I don't want to play.  Lots of people work hard.

But if they made a good MMORPG, I would pay more than $15 for it.  It's just that all of the MMORPGs these days suck, unfortunately.

I hope all of Blizzard employees go out of business and then other companies can take them in and make unique MMORPGs.

IN YOUR OPINION

in your little world

in YOUR little desires.

Welcome to the world of business, where you start out as a fresh graduate wondering about the world and try and gain as much money as possible outta the market, even if it means feeding people shit.

Originally posted by Mr.Hyde

from google....

Editors at Game Developer magazine, the leading video game industry publication, have released the results of its eighth annual Game Developer Salary Survey, calculating an average American game industry salary in 2008 of $79,000, a 7% increase from 2007’s figure of nearly $74,000.

Most people / alot of people living in the US make what?

 "Overall the average American, age 25 or older, made roughly $32,000 per year, does not have a college degree, has been, is, or will be married as well as divorced at least once during his or her lifetime, lives in his or her own home in a suburban setting, and holds a white collar office job."

At one time I made 30,000 a year. That works out to be about $ 15 / to $16 an hour.

So at $ 74,000 a year. That works out to be $ 38 / $ 39 an hour.

 

STFU

Um LOL?

I guess you didn't hear but engineers make GOOD money. Gee I wonder why? Might have something to do with learning advanced physics / mathematics / low and high-level software development / long hours. Yep I think that they should make as much as a manager at McDonald's. Pretty similar work load and difficulty AMIRITE???

Originally posted by MMOnsterkill

Originally posted by Mr.Hyde

from google....

Editors at Game Developer magazine, the leading video game industry publication, have released the results of its eighth annual Game Developer Salary Survey, calculating an average American game industry salary in 2008 of $79,000, a 7% increase from 2007’s figure of nearly $74,000.

Most people / alot of people living in the US make what?

 "Overall the average American, age 25 or older, made roughly $32,000 per year, does not have a college degree, has been, is, or will be married as well as divorced at least once during his or her lifetime, lives in his or her own home in a suburban setting, and holds a white collar office job."

At one time I made 30,000 a year. That works out to be about $ 15 / to $16 an hour.

So at $ 74,000 a year. That works out to be $ 38 / $ 39 an hour.

 

STFU

 

Um LOL?

I guess you didn't hear but engineers make GOOD money. Gee I wonder why? Might have something to do with learning advanced physics / mathematics / low and high-level software development / long hours. Yep I think that they should make as much as a manager at McDonald's. Pretty similar work load and difficulty AMIRITE???

I'm currently working on a degree in computer science. It's kicking my ass and I know computers, but it's mostly the REQUIRED math minor that's kicking my ass.... Even still, some of the computer courses kick my ass too, like Computer Organization was pretty tough when we got into MIPS. But, I did that class before I took ASM and I understand the MIPS alot better now that I know Intel Based ASM.

Look it up though, Computer Science is ranked as being one of the hardest degrees to get. From Bachelors to Doctorate. I think the only thing that beats it, is Physics and when you get into the higher levels (masters and doctorate) you can throw in Math. It even beats Chemistry on drop out rates.

Not only that, but as far as programming is you need good problem solving skills. Like....... REALLY good problem solving skills. You also need a VERY good memory. There is so much to remember and especially when you're doing things that take alot of database work (MMOs have HUGE DBs), because if you're doing something common, then you need to remember what the optimal algorithm is at least named, so you can find it. It's a whole lot more than just simple sort routines and transversing algorithms.

Not to mention, to be a good programmer, you're also going to have to have good writing skills. Because, who do you think writes the technical manuals? It sure as hell isn't the marketing guys.

Yeah, $72k a year for a good programmer is kind of low IMHO. Good thing that's AVERAGE, which means it counts in the Junior level guys. But, I have found jobs on Monster.com that were Senoir programmers and didn't pay much. I remember one that I came across for a Senior Programmer, $70,000/yr in Santa Monica... which is by Beverly Hills and Bel Air. I remember thinking, "W00T PROJECTS HERE I COME!" (70k/yr is trash money in that area)

Currently, I make close to $50k/yr with no job, to go to school. I risked my life for that money, but I better damn well be making at least close to that and the opportunities to move far an beyond that when I get out of school. 

BTW: The "Average American" is fat and lazy. $32k/yr is too much for most of them.

(I'm agreeing with the guy I quoted btw..... in case someone missed that)

Let's see, I can buy a 60$ console game with a bit better gameplay/story and have around a week at most of fun...

Or...

I can buy a two month card to WoW and have around a good month of fun for only 30$.

I agree with the subscription prices, I'd like them to go down, but honestly, who doesn't want them to go down, eh?

Originally posted by TheHatter

Originally posted by MMOnsterkill

Originally posted by Mr.Hyde

from google....

Editors at Game Developer magazine, the leading video game industry publication, have released the results of its eighth annual Game Developer Salary Survey, calculating an average American game industry salary in 2008 of $79,000, a 7% increase from 2007’s figure of nearly $74,000.

Most people / alot of people living in the US make what?

 "Overall the average American, age 25 or older, made roughly $32,000 per year, does not have a college degree, has been, is, or will be married as well as divorced at least once during his or her lifetime, lives in his or her own home in a suburban setting, and holds a white collar office job."

At one time I made 30,000 a year. That works out to be about $ 15 / to $16 an hour.

So at $ 74,000 a year. That works out to be $ 38 / $ 39 an hour.

 

STFU

 

Um LOL?

I guess you didn't hear but engineers make GOOD money. Gee I wonder why? Might have something to do with learning advanced physics / mathematics / low and high-level software development / long hours. Yep I think that they should make as much as a manager at McDonald's. Pretty similar work load and difficulty AMIRITE???

 

I'm currently working on a degree in computer science. It's kicking my ass and I know computers, but it's mostly the REQUIRED math minor that's kicking my ass.... Even still, some of the computer courses kick my ass too, like Computer Organization was pretty tough when we got into MIPS. But, I did that class before I took ASM and I understand the MIPS alot better now that I know Intel Based ASM.

Look it up though, Computer Science is ranked as being one of the hardest degrees to get. From Bachelors to Doctorate. I think the only thing that beats it, is Physics and when you get into the higher levels (masters and doctorate) you can throw in Math. It even beats Chemistry on drop out rates.

Not only that, but as far as programming is you need good problem solving skills. Like....... REALLY good problem solving skills. You also need a VERY good memory. There is so much to remember and especially when you're doing things that take alot of database work (MMOs have HUGE DBs), because if you're doing something common, then you need to remember what the optimal algorithm is at least named, so you can find it. It's a whole lot more than just simple sort routines and transversing algorithms.

 

Not to mention, to be a good programmer, you're also going to have to have good writing skills. Because, who do you think writes the technical manuals? It sure as hell isn't the marketing guys.

Yeah, $72k a year for a good programmer is kind of low IMHO. Good thing that's AVERAGE, which means it counts in the Junior level guys. But, I have found jobs on Monster.com that were Senoir programmers and didn't pay much. I remember one that I came across for a Senior Programmer, $70,000/yr in Santa Monica... which is by Beverly Hills and Bel Air. I remember thinking, "W00T PROJECTS HERE I COME!" (70k/yr is trash money in that area)

 

Currently, I make close to $50k/yr with no job, to go to school. I risked my life for that money, but I better damn well be making at least close to that and the opportunities to move far an beyond that when I get out of school. 

BTW: The "Average American" is fat and lazy. $32k/yr is too much for most of them.

(I'm agreeing with the guy I quoted btw..... in case someone missed that)

I know what you mean Hatter, I am also doing a C.S. degree at my university, and it is tough stuff. I would post my online portfolio here, but it has a lot of personal information about me so that's going to have to be a no go. 72K is very  low pay for engineering.

http://gamedeveloper.texterity.com/gamedeveloper/2009fall/#pg1

That e-zine has a section for current pay standards across all game development positions. Programmer make the most money by a very very long shot.

Originally posted by vladakov

Originally posted by Grayseven

Capitalism: Love it or go Commie

Seriously, people are complaining about paying $15 USD a month for a game? How many hours do gamers average of playtime for that money? If you play 2-3 hours a day, 5 days a week and maybe 5 hours a day on weekends, that comes out to a max of 25 hours a week. Multiply by 4 weeks in a month and you get about $.15 USD per hour of game play.

If you are a "hardcore" gamer, that drops down to pennies an hour.

Think about some of the other things you do for fun, how long they take, and how much they cost.

Yesterday, I spent 6 hours in a sports bar with friends. I played two games of Golden Tee golf ($8 USD), had 3 drinks plus unlimited Iced Tea ($17 USD) and a Blackened Chicken salad ($8.50 USD) for a grand total of $33.50 USD + tax and tip, or just under $5.60 USD per hour of entertainment.

I had fun, enjoyed myself and socialized. Kinda like what I do in an MMO, only for about $5.45 USD more per hour than I normally pay.

This is just an opinion, but it seems to me that the F2P crowd has the attention span of a puppy in a pre-school. Without any vested interest in any game, they can bounce from game to game without any worries of missing out on something or growing a character to enjoy different content. Whatever new shiny comes out of the Asian grindshops gets their interest until they blink and forget what they are doing and are caught by the next shiny F2P to crop up.

Thanks, but I'll finance a team dedicated to keeping me interested with my quarter an hour instead of buying of buying a Purple Coat of Ling Ling in a "free" MMO RMT for a couple of bucks so I can hit the Cave of Red Posies with a bunch of 12 year olds.

 

capitalism/communism hasn't much to do with  people that whine about  subscription fee's, really.

i find the title of your post insulting

Really? Insulting? Good. Communism is a disease that has proven time and again to be nothing but a pipe dream that can never work....unless you are one of the elite on top and then it works really well...for you..

Capitalism has everything to do with subscription fees, and Communism was always against Capitalistic greed that the former Soviet Union derided the Western world for. If you expect me to feel sorry for anyone that gets insulted by my using Commie, well, don't hold your breath. I find the entire though of Communism as a few steps below necrophiliacs.

And this whining people are doing is all about Capitalism. The market supports the fee, so the fee stays. Companies set their fees to be profitable while being able to maintain reinvestment and growth. Capitalism at its finest. Saying that a company is being greedy by charging $15 a month is absolutely ridiculous. No one here that isn't a VP of Accounting for an MMO company has any idea how much a game costs per person. You can only guess and throw out made up numbers and call them facts.  After all 90% of all statistics found in an online post are made up on the spot...just like that one.

The bottom line is simple: If you don't like the fee, unsub and fill out the customer service exit thingy and say "You charge too much, you suck" and go find a F2P game to your liking.

 As to the comment about $74k a year being around $39 an hour....if you work 40 hours a week for 52 weeks it comes out to 2080 hours a year. $74k is 35.58 an hour. But....and its a big but....not a single one of these SALARIED employees making 74k a year work a 40 hour week. Engineers at the company I work for see 60+ hours every week and sometimes more and that doesn't count the stuff they do from home. If you figure out their hourly wage it drops waaaay down to $23 and some change per hour, or by about a third. Doesn't sound too good when you look at it that way.

I think most of the people who complain about a subscription are not working. They need to explain the extra cost to their parents which is why they kick up a fuss. :)

Another poster mentioned how the same people don’t blanch at paying a monthly cable bill and so on. Well these kids don’t pay that do they? That is seen as a family expense, subbing to a MMO is an individual kids expense.

A single months sub is the cheapest form of great entertainment you will find anywhere.

£8.99 a month? I can spend ten times that amount on a single night out and piss it all up the wall, then wake up with a hangover to kill.

To be honest if you can't afford a months sub, you need to re-evalute what/how you play. If you should be playing at all.

Originally posted by Korhindi

You do know that the $14.95 per month cost was picked because the folks at Compuserve and AOL figured out that price was the top end for most internet services people were willing to pay.

Blizzard, Sony, etc simply followed suit citing these services as reasons to validate that fee.  Years later, that is still the normal fee.

The sub fees are not based on expense, but based off of what they feel they can get out of the customer.

The same goes for games boxes... back in the days of cartriges $49 was the cost to make, distribute and pay for the design team.  Today, DVD's cost 5 cents or less and the companies rake in big profits despite the rising costs of production. 

The reason for games costing $50+ is because people were used to paying that fee.  In short, the prices are what they are for no other reason than, "Because they can" and people will pay it.

Consider movies.  They have multi-million dollar budgets just like some games, but when was the last time you payed $49 for a movie (non collector ed)?

F2P may be more expensive in the long run, but only if you play the game at length.

Box + Sub is much more expensive short term (1 to 3-5 months).

And niether pay model is a good indicator of quality or good service these days.

This. I dont think i have anything to add.

My problem is for some reason people equate quality to payment plan and they have made up their mind that only way you can have quality mmo is with 14.99.Games Budgets are given before one payment are made so if bad game is made you know why.If Blizzard,Bioware or bethsada made a mmo and it was free to play what is the likeyhood of it being bad game very slim.

I complain about subs because every game wants to charge one and industry has proven that you can run different payment models and have success.If you play one game and one game only it is fine but if you like more than mmorpg is crazy.14.99 force you to play only game.3 mmos is 44.97 a month,2 mmos is 29.98 a month.

Microtransactions model and other models give greater flexiablity to play more games.If you bring out a polish high quality product and follow up with good service i have no problem with 14.99 a month but how often is that case.Also when games depend on player populations to have success you have to look at  monthly sub model maybe that is not best way.

Ask yourself what is stopping games for charging 6.99 or 9.99 a month back by a small cash shop for character transfers,race transfer,costume gear,pets and fluff items.

Anyway the true test comes when Guild Wars 2 comes out.

Its been $50 for the box, and $15 per month for as long as I can remember.  Thats pretty amazing considering how much everything else has gone up.

The DDO model is the ultimate solution and will hopefully be the industry standard a couple of years from now!

How come everyone should pay the same amount no matter how much they play? Paying $15 a month is great but there should be more options to give more power to the players.

Relax OP, the only people complaining about sub fee's are little kids whose parents won't let them play WoW because of the subscription fee...what parent would want to pay $50 + $180 every year so their kid can sit on a computer wasting their life.

 Love how everyone ignored my post =P

You expect people to read your posts...and you have been with us since 2007?

This is a both guns blazing forum, you read what the OP has to say, do a post both guns blazing and maybe, just maybe check what someone else said after the smoke clears. :)

Originally posted by Papadam

The DDO model is the ultimate solution and will hopefully be the industry standard a couple of years from now!

How come everyone should pay the same amount no matter how much they play? Paying $15 a month is great but there should be more options to give more power to the players.

There is no single "one size fits all" subscription type. The DDO method would fail horribly for EvE, for instance. But EvE already allows people to play for free in it's own way.