Originally posted by Caleveira 

Thanks Eben.

I'll have to agree that whatever Hitler's state of mind (his mental derangement is well documented) he was nonetheless responsible for his actions (we wouldn't consider him legally insane even today) and there really is no question about the nature of the various crimes he comitted. Crimes against humanity.

Being insane and evil are not mutually exclusive as can be proven by Charles Manson case. Now, Hitler wasn't just in charge of a group of stoned out hippies, but the larger part of continental Europe and Scandinavia. One of the misconceptions about the Holocaust is that the Nazis felt justified in their actions, however the truth is that even at the height of their power they had to keep many of their policies secret from the public eye. They knew full well that what they were doing would've been considered unacceptable even by their staunchest suporters, which does go some way into proving mens rea on their part.

That even the more enthusiastic proponents of Hitler's final solution felt the need to keep it secret does prove some awareness about the nature of their actions, although refering to this as shame (which many later claimed to have felt) is perhaps giving them too much credit.

I feel it's unfair to use Hitler as the bar for "evil", as he's way beyond it. Also, his urination fetish disgusts me so much.

Well this thread took a turn down weird lane.  This is now about the analysis and thought provoking discussion of whether Hitler is evil or not.

Originally posted by clik

Well this thread took a turn down weird lane.  This is now about the analysis and thought provoking discussion of whether Hitler is evil or not.

Seriously, thread got Godwinson'd within a page.

Originally posted by Dawnsinger

It saddens me greatly to say, but it's true. SOE are actually less evil than Activision-Blizzard, although - to be fair - that's mainly because of Bobby Kotick.

Just you wait, they may seem to be just scraping the scum off the pool of darkness, but soon enough they will emerge from it, horned and wreathed in flames of RMT shops and premium features.

( By the way, SOE weren't all THAT evil to begin with, just amazingly incompetent. )

What, pray tell, is "evil" about RMT shops or premium features?

As long as RMT premium goodies do not interfere with the basic game and only allow non-critical enhancement of a game, there isn't really a problem.

The problem would come if I had to pay for, say, Tier 10.5 gear while only getting Tier 10 gear from the hardest raids. At THAT point, the game has broken down past the point that it would remain a viable game in my eyes.

There are people out there paying real money for digital "property" all the time. The SWG digital card game is a good example, as are others like it. If the company running the game decided to call it quits, people would have nothing to show for the money they spent since the cards are nothing more than a few lines of code.

Fluff like this is good for a game. Call it a tax on the stupid. If enough people drop 10 bucks on a pet that took some artist some programmers a few days to create it give Blizzard more money to make Cataclysm better. So I get to reap the reward of a better game because Joe Everything bought himself two pets that a lot of others won't have because we'd rather put that $20 bucks in a strippers G-string one buck at a time.

RMT's could actually help out a lot of games that are struggling on the cusp. A game company can't go out and say to its player base "if we double sub prices we can start doing some really neat things that might bring the game back" but they can take a small team of people and dream up some fluff that people would pay money for to bolster revenue.

As long as it stays as decor or fluff, RMT's could actually be a boon to their games.

Originally posted by Dawnsinger

It saddens me greatly to say, but it's true. SOE are actually less evil than Activision-Blizzard, although - to be fair - that's mainly because of Bobby Kotick.

Just you wait, they may seem to be just scraping the scum off the pool of darkness, but soon enough they will emerge from it, horned and wreathed in flames of RMT shops and premium features.

( By the way, SOE weren't all THAT evil to begin with, just amazingly incompetent. )

Well, then those of us who will not stay for RMT and will leave the game. I love WoW, and people can buy all the special mounts and pets that they want as long as what they can buy doesn't affect gameplay and give them an advantage over people who play to earn their loot. And calling a designer evil because they want to make money to keep their shareholders happy pretty much makes all companies evil.

Since I'm logged in I will make this comment.  SOE ****IS**** not are the lesser of two evils.  There...your terrible title is fixed. 

Originally posted by Astralglide

Well, then those of us who will not stay for RMT and will leave the game. I love WoW, and people can buy all the special mounts and pets that they want as long as what they can buy doesn't affect gameplay and give them an advantage over people who play to earn their loot. And calling a designer evil because they want to make money to keep their shareholders happy pretty much makes all companies evil.

Assuming 6 million Western subscribers that only pay for subscription fees...

$1,008,000,000 per year! Factor in expansions, and that goes upto $1.25*10^9 per year! That's not counting whatever Activision-Blizzard get out of TCG sales, shirt sales all that shit. I've personally not got any problem with that, it's only an annual expenditure of about $200 per year, which is alright considering the many hours of entertainment you can get out of it. However, considering Bobby Kotick saying, "We want to charge at least $500 dollars per game," ( which I can only assume goes to per year for WoW ) the cost of playing WoW is likely to rise exponentially, as they introduce features which didn't make it into the main game, but they are quite capable of charging for. There's nothing wrong with making a large profit ( hell, a billion a year from a single game is nothing too obscene ) but then there's making a large profit and bleeding your customers for all their cash.

Trust me, this "buy two vanity pets for $15 ( which is £15 in England, as they were too lazy, or clever enough to realise we wouldn't notice )" is just the grooming to get you ready for the leash of RMT that Bobby Kotick will be happy to see drop around your neck.

Originally posted by Dawnsinger

Originally posted by Astralglide

Well, then those of us who will not stay for RMT and will leave the game. I love WoW, and people can buy all the special mounts and pets that they want as long as what they can buy doesn't affect gameplay and give them an advantage over people who play to earn their loot. And calling a designer evil because they want to make money to keep their shareholders happy pretty much makes all companies evil.

Assuming 6 million Western subscribers that only pay for subscription fees...

$1,008,000,000 per year! Factor in expansions, and that goes upto $1.25*10^9 per year! That's not counting whatever Activision-Blizzard get out of TCG sales, shirt sales all that shit. I've personally not got any problem with that, it's only an annual expenditure of about $200 per year, which is alright considering the many hours of entertainment you can get out of it. However, considering Bobby Kotick saying, "We want to charge at least $500 dollars per game," ( which I can only assume goes to per year for WoW ) the cost of playing WoW is likely to rise exponentially, as they introduce features which didn't make it into the main game, but they are quite capable of charging for. There's nothing wrong with making a large profit ( hell, a billion a year from a single game is nothing too obscene ) but then there's making a large profit and bleeding your customers for all their cash.

Trust me, this "buy two vanity pets for $15 ( which is £15 in England, as they were too lazy, or clever enough to realise we wouldn't notice )" is just the grooming to get you ready for the leash of RMT that Bobby Kotick will be happy to see drop around your neck.

The slippery slope argument is flawed. Just because you can buy vanity items doesn't mean that they are switching to a full-scale RMT. I'm pretty sure that most of their players would not stay for that (myself included). Read this article:

www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm/loadFeature/3700

Evil?  Two companies that create and run computer games are evil?

Yeah, how dare they hire people so they can take care of themselves and their families while producing goods the public wants.  Everyone should be ditch-diggers for the government!  Am I right?

Originally posted by Astralglide

The slippery slope argument is flawed. Just because you can buy vanity items doesn't mean that they are switching to a full-scale RMT. I'm pretty sure that most of their players would not stay for that (myself included). Read this article:

www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm/loadFeature/3700

As someone in the thread on that article said, it's not crying wolf, now, it's seeing the wolf nibbling on a sheep and saying, "Oh, it's alright, he's just having a nibble! He won't try and eat any more!"

Years ago both these companeis would be considered one of the best gaming companies around. Times have changed for both. Quality has gone down and its become all about the money. Pretty sad.

Originally posted by Elikal

Originally posted by nAAtimus

I feel "evil" is an obscene exaggeration.

 

Evil was Hitler. Evil was Saddam. Evil is Emperor Palpatine. A game company can make decisions you find disappointing. But as the the cliche, yes I think indeed Blizzard is way more "evil". SOE alas has Smed, who just is DUMB.

Only Palpatine was evil because "evil" is a fantasy term.  In reality, nobody is evil.

Originally posted by ozerinx

uhmm I really doubt.. they resubbed you because first of all why "you". And they can easily do it to 128390123 people so if there has been lots of cases im pretty sure they would have law suit up the ass.

 

As to the hitler comment you people need a sense of humor t-t  considering the OP is saying game companies are evil.

ok. so ty for acting like you know something when I am the person that actually delt with the situation and your a clueless person replying on a blog.

guess you think i must zombie walk to my comp in my sleep, install and register to MMO's, then delete the actual game and go back to sleep. how incredibly amazing. sounds like a true talent.

you obviously did not read that it was a debit card. therfore no way I can prove anything. and matter of fact I posted about it on this very webste after it happened and was told by people 'here' that it had happened to others as well.

ty for defending crooks and blindly assuming that I am just making things up. yea. i truly have so much to gain in making up stories of me being ripped off by SOE. I am 100% positive this happened from firsthand experience. you however are only assuming with nothing to fall back on but more assumptions....  Good luck living like that.

Originally posted by TheHavok 

Only Palpatine was evil because "evil" is a fantasy term.  In reality, nobody is evil.

Except Bobby Kotick.

Originally posted by Dawnsinger

Originally posted by TheHavok 

Only Palpatine was evil because "evil" is a fantasy term.  In reality, nobody is evil.

 

Except Bobby Kotick.

He was the CEO of 4Kids Entertainment FFS. If that isnt evil I dont know what is.

Originally posted by jaxsundane

On one hand you are right SOE isn't evil (just incompetent) but I don't know what you guys get all up in arms about with Blizz right now they are selling fluff items which I could care less about.  It's like buying clothes to me I have friends who wear 500 dollar jeans *shrug*.  If they chose to spend all that money it's there right I don't just label the makers evil because they are serving a market that exists.

The bottom line is regardless of ones personal opinion of the practice as long as it serves a market those against RMT's are just wrong with statements like this, if the practice was not successful they wouldn't do it so again they are serving a market that has just as much a right to be served as you or I.

Logic and "common" sense, aren't that common 'round these parts. Are you SURE you're an MMORPG.com forum member?  O.o 

:bow:

 I think SOE and Blizz just gained sentience about a year ago and are planning a massive extinction of humanity, with Kotick and Smeghead as parts of their hiveminds.

Oh well. At least it will be pretty and won't hurt much.

 SOE single handed destroyed what could have been one of the best MMO ever! no other game has come close to what the original SWG:JTL had! Ground game, space game, 32 professions, player economy, player cities! ..etc...

wouldnt call Blizzard evil tbh, admittedly they have their moments but if you think about diablo2 being one of the fairest games out there as there is no item buying system that blizzard have directly implemented and no monthly fee. Although they seem to have changed this for WoW but not everyone can be perfect

I've been feeling the same way about Blizzard ever since they started charging $$$ for character "recustomisation", which was horribly annoying and a bit stupid. As the OP said, the whole SWG fiasco was just incompetence on the part of SOE, equal to an incontinent dog urinating on itself.

Originally posted by Grayseven

Originally posted by Dawnsinger

It saddens me greatly to say, but it's true. SOE are actually less evil than Activision-Blizzard, although - to be fair - that's mainly because of Bobby Kotick.

Just you wait, they may seem to be just scraping the scum off the pool of darkness, but soon enough they will emerge from it, horned and wreathed in flames of RMT shops and premium features.

( By the way, SOE weren't all THAT evil to begin with, just amazingly incompetent. )

What, pray tell, is "evil" about RMT shops or premium features?

As long as RMT premium goodies do not interfere with the basic game and only allow non-critical enhancement of a game, there isn't really a problem.

The problem would come if I had to pay for, say, Tier 10.5 gear while only getting Tier 10 gear from the hardest raids. At THAT point, the game has broken down past the point that it would remain a viable game in my eyes.

There are people out there paying real money for digital "property" all the time. The SWG digital card game is a good example, as are others like it. If the company running the game decided to call it quits, people would have nothing to show for the money they spent since the cards are nothing more than a few lines of code.

Fluff like this is good for a game. Call it a tax on the stupid. If enough people drop 10 bucks on a pet that took some artist some programmers a few days to create it give Blizzard more money to make Cataclysm better. So I get to reap the reward of a better game because Joe Everything bought himself two pets that a lot of others won't have because we'd rather put that $20 bucks in a strippers G-string one buck at a time.

RMT's could actually help out a lot of games that are struggling on the cusp. A game company can't go out and say to its player base "if we double sub prices we can start doing some really neat things that might bring the game back" but they can take a small team of people and dream up some fluff that people would pay money for to bolster revenue.

As long as it stays as decor or fluff, RMT's could actually be a boon to their games.

I consider RMT evil when it is introduced into the game after launch, when it started as a subscription based game.

The only exception I make to this, is the way EVE Online does it. That is tollerable, because CCP does not inject cash into the economy. For the people who don't know how this works : the veteran players can sell their ISK for gametime, which other players can buy. So I can buy 2 x  Plex ( ingame item that you can put on the market for isk, and which gives you 30 days playtime ) for 35€ ( damn they got expensive :p ) and then put them on the market for like 300m isk.

It is not the perfect world, but the best pragmatic solution available, because it is part of the way to combat illegal isk sellers ( who bot, hack and cheat ).

It also helps to let more people play ( people paying their subs with isk ) , rather than drive people away ( by botters, cheaters and hackers ).

Back to the evil RMT, mainly the RMT introduced after launch, when the game already ran for a good time, and suddenly the company wants more money, on top of monthly subs. RMT that injects items and money directly into the game economy and game world and where people can buy as much as they want.

I consider RMT bad overall ( except the EVE Online way ), because it is no longer about playing the game but buying stuff.

Originally posted by Devour

I've been feeling the same way about Blizzard ever since they started charging $$$ for character "recustomisation", which was horribly annoying and a bit stupid. As the OP said, the whole SWG fiasco was just incompetence on the part of SOE, equal to an incontinent dog urinating on itself.

Hmm I do have to agree, that the "recustomization" in WoW is lame, it is pretty lame in itself, even without asking money for it. I must agree, that is pretty evil.

Again, I only consider something like that evil when it is introduced after launch. People build a reputation, and live with the consequences of their mistakes, but now thats no longer true.

No offense to the OP (or any other poster, for that matter) but to attach the word "evil" to a game  or game developer, when we have things in the world like starvation, child molestation, rape, and serial murderers....seems....well....STUPID.

If you don't like something....fine....don't like it, and don't support it financially. But to call it EVIL really seems like a huge leap.

Originally posted by girlgeek

No offense to the OP (or any other poster, for that matter) but to attach the word "evil" to a game  or game developer, when we have things in the world like starvation, child molestation, rape, and serial murderers....seems....well....STUPID.

If you don't like something....fine....don't like it, and don't support it financially. But to call it EVIL really seems like a huge leap.

Starvation isn't really evil, it's just something that happens when a population grows too large to be supported by it's food source. The rest are monsters, individuals who are inhuman, wanting to satisfy the disgusting needs that come with.

EVIL is something different.

Originally posted by Devour 

Starvation isn't really evil, it's just something that happens when a population grows too large to be supported by it's food source.

I can't let this one go by.

There is more than enough food being produced for everyone on this planet. The problem is distribution. The rich get obese and the poor starve. That IS evil.