Originally posted by bleyzwun

IMO they need to stop allowing Pre-Order customers into closed betas.  Closed Beta testers should be the type of players that will actually test, and submit bugs, suggestions, etc.  I also feel that testers who haven't logged in for a certain amount of time, or have never submitted feedback should be removed from the test.  I feel it should be important to devs to weed out people who just want a preview. 

i have never heard of one single game that let pre oders into CLOSED beta for that game, pre order often get a head start which is like 3 days be fore launce AFTER OPEN Beta.

as for closed beta i was in the CO one and their were a number of changes faciliated by us testers.

The death penently was complety changed to the star system we have now, the something fishy mission started as open world, and you could asign power from the open world (no power house) i fact i faught black talon using 5 powers and flight in closed beta...

but what happens with those betas where noone is listened to? feedback goes unheard and all it really is is to acquire some more money  beta should be open to all for free its suppose to be a period with which they test the game not try to bilk money out of players

Originally posted by Cerion

Betas are no longer testing grounds...plain and simple.

I wouldn't say that with 100% certainty.    I am currently in a beta for an Indie Company and we are testing and providing feedback and suggestions.   The message boards for this game is wide open to the public(No NDA) and you can see the interaction between the beta testers and the developers quite freely.    If it were to test servers only there would be way more beta testers and there isn't.   They seem to be very selective in who they let into their beta.   They must have done well in choosing because the beta testers that are currently testing the game come down hard if they suspect someone is just there to play a free game.  

No question a BETA "SHOULD" be useful ,but what we have seen from them is a compelte joke.

Look at Aio na game that claimed they were releasing a superb polished product,yuet right away long Que ue's,no water physics and MANY players can't get past Game Guard,so what the heck did they learn from BETA...NOTHING?

Most Beta as we seem them know are nothing more than GIMMICKS to bribe players into their game and websites are joining in the gimmick to attract viewers/subscribers to their website.example ...register to get your free BETA code.

You will see the most obvious bugs and mistakes in Beta and yet the game will release with the exact same mistakes,sop Beta has been a waste of time for usefulness.Both the players and the developers are to blame for making Beta into a joke,neither one treats it properly, to make sure the game is released playable for all.

There is a NEW trend from BETA's i am witnessing witch is even more lame than what we have been seeing from Beta.This NEW trend is to take a game that is 2 months from being finished and they CLAIM to start a BETA on a game that is not really in Beta stage ,because it is not even finished.However they try to fool the public by claiming it is in Beta stage and just use that time, togive the APPERANCE they are ready and in testing,but they are not.

I haven't gotten the sense that any beta has been done well at this point. The reason is simple. When I played on AO Test Server, they were continually improving the feedback process for committed testers. And those testers were respected by the developers for their professionalism and commitment to discovering bugs and reporting them thoroughly. They came up with a system that rewarded based on the content of the bug report, and that reward system was tied into the reporting system, which was an Internet-based application that you logged into separately, and that was closely monitored by the development team. The in-game bug reporting tools are a joke. Not a single one, in my opinion, has managed to capture the information needed to resolve issues. This is unfortunate, as a better tool in-game would probably allow developers to pinpoint problems almost instantly. However, we're discussing betas here, and I'd have to agree with others who see them more as a marketing tool than a true effort to resolve bugs before the game goes live. It's a shame, too, because I feel that a lot of games out there had real potential, if they'd only lived up to it by listening to the players and their suggestions before going live.

Originally posted by bleyzwun

IMO they need to stop allowing Pre-Order customers into closed betas.  Closed Beta testers should be the type of players that will actually test, and submit bugs, suggestions, etc.  I also feel that testers who haven't logged in for a certain amount of time, or have never submitted feedback should be removed from the test.  I feel it should be important to devs to weed out people who just want a preview. 

/agree

Just because you grease the pockets of Game Stop doesn't mean you're a better beta tester then I am.

Betas WOULD be useful, if Developers would listen. Which they don't. Maybe at some Indie companies. But in the big ones, the Divas... err Developers have their "vision", prolly by overuse of certain substances. I am quite disillusioned about that part.

But for me as customer - I don't but MMos I haven't seen before anymore.

The only time I have ever felt I had an impact on a game as a tester was the very few times I have gotten into alpha stage testing.  Often, alpha testers are re-invited into closed beta, but I've never seen the communication and interaction work well at that point to release.  And part of the problem I have seen has mostly revolved around the tools for testers.  I mean seriously, needing to be on vent, on MIRC, on the game, AND file a formal bug submission on a separate site at the same time you are reformatting jpgs into proper size and format, etc for upload is just crazy.   With a small crowd in alpha, that works, but once the crowd gets larger, forget it.  Give me some decent in-game tools and I will test your game to no end.  Until then, it is free play time.  Seriously.

But I digress.  From "closed beta" onward, I feel the testing is non-existent.

I think beta testing is fine the way it is.. I know a lot of people see it as a gimmick or marketing tool.

Well, it might be but there are a lot of other things that can be tested. Most have mentioned stress testing and other hardware testing. Self explanatory I think.

The other thing that probably is done (i'm no dev so I don't know for sure) is data gathering. Every time someone does a quest, kills a mob, visits an area the team gets reports one what content is hot and what is not. This gives a last minute chance for the devs to tweak some content that may not be utilized.

Then there are the forums for beta and people are usually very vocal about what they like and don't like. Most alpha testers and closed beta testers have a lot of  investment into the game - playing it regularly and is very involved in how the systems work. Open beta gives the devs a chance to see someone reaction to the game from a NEW player point of view. This way the Devs can iron out any problems with players being confused as to what to do or what something means... What comes to mind is EQ 1 --- I jumped in without reading the manual on how to play and I couldn't figure out how to get quests or sell things. It seems ridiculous now looking back but it was the first MMO I played. If players have a hard time figuring out how to do things they will not stick around in today's market.

But I think the main thing is for the investors.. they are taking the temperature on their investment. Seeing how hot the game is and to see what kind of return they'll be getting. Almost like a mid term for the dev team they hired. :)

Beta's are a lot of things all rolled into one. I'm not sure why anyone would be against playing a game before it's released. Try before you buy and excitement. I usually take that chance to convince my friends on why they should play the game as well. (I usually wont play a game if my core group of friends don't play) I think this is good marketing in favor of the player.

Maybe 'beta' is the wrong term to be used -- but I'm all for the open 'beta' stages.

There are no real "betas" anymore. Now there are only "previews" titled beta.

As a long time software developer (as in Computer Programmer for 32 years), Beta are meant to final test code but sadly in the case of MANY online games that doesn't always hold true.

Personally have seen a lot of so called "Beta" games that weren't ready for "Pre-alpha testing" stage.

Then some games that are in "Beta" were so well done and well prepared that they should have already been released.

Others like Freelancer are a great game but missed the mark in some area like No Joystick Support in a Flight Simulation. It is sad too... there are SO many joystick examples that use DirectX that an oversight like that is without a decent excuse. It just doesn't take all that long to add support for a Joystick.

There is a fine line between a product that just needs some minor issues fixed and one that is just hasn't had proper pretesting.

You can't test every possible set of hardware out there... it is just not practical. So you give it your best shot andif you did your homework right it shouldn't be all that hard to fix bugs that are well documented that are reproduceable.

Betas also tend to get people excited about playing what is felt as if it is nearly "ready for prime time".

If you get chosen to play test in an open beta or closed beta, please make very good notes if you encounter bugs or strange occurances when playing the game. The more accurate the details on how the issue / bug occurred along with how the it occurred, the better the chance that the bug will be fixed.

Don't expect instant results however.

I have seen other games where WELL documented and very reproduceable errors in code are just flat ignored. That's horrible but happens a lot. Rappelz has a lot of these still with no hope for getting them fixed it seems. They just keep messing with all the skills of all character types and pet types instead of focusing on fixing glaring issue.

Any huge program has BUGS in it... Some found that can be repeated and thus be fixed... others that have yet to be discovered and those that people use as exploits because of buggy software in some particular area.

Any long time gamer will appreciate a well done game. Many that use the Unreal Engine have done very well based on a well coded and well implemented game engine. By the way, this engine has been released for people to try their hand at writing games:

http://udn.epicgames.com/Three/DevelopmentKitHome.html

Enjoy!

:)

Originally posted by Yamota  

Balancing is something that happens through the lifetime of an MMORPG. I dont think I have ever seen an MMORPG that did not suffer through balancing after release.

There are different kinds of re-balancing though: changing the parameters and changing the equations.

Tweaking damage output from 9 to 8 on something will happen all over the place.  But I'd argue that changing the entire formula of how a skill interacts with other skills and the environment is not a re-balance, it's a redesign and with the terminology I'm used to, that would happen in alpha, not beta.

I tend to see live publishes as following the same cycle as any other product release, just on a smaller scale.

(as for the viral marketing aspect of betas ... well, it might work, but if you attract people who are there to actually sincerely test, they might get annoyed at being played as agents of infection)

How useful are betas?

  Well that depends on the developer behind the beta.   If the beta is run well, and the testers are given tasks... then this basicly helps prevent major bugs and issues from slipping through.     I can remember my time in the early beta of Starcraft, by Blizzard.   They ran a very good beta, they had target goals, and things that needed testing in mass.   They would be general terms, like test the Zerg vs Human... or test this feature tell us if it works in game.

Some betas now are run like that... some features are being put out to be played with by the community on a bi-weekly basis.   Bugs are found, they are then fixed.    In games where I have seen a straight to public beta with no structure other than a publicity hype to try and pre-sale the game have all ended in fail.    Pirates of the Burning Seas was one that pops to my mind.   A great game concept.   Could have been the next big SMASH hit game, something worthy of Sid Miers "Pirates!" from the old C64 and C128 days.    But instead turned out to basicly be a unfinished product that they were trying to wow the masses with their pretty features.   

Then there are other games that had no open beta, and a VERY short beta that have had perhaps some of the worst launches in history.... WWIIOL, Anarchy Online, Darkfall.     These were calculated risks, in some cases, and just necesity in others.    That really didnt pan out well for them in the short run, but for two of those on the list,  have had a great run.    

Beta has a use... but only if the developers use it for more than a get last minute cash gamble or a publicity stunt to get the game name out there for free.    

Because there will always be the Free play beta player, who lives from open beta to open beta rarely if ever subscribing to anything.   That will always end up destroying what could be a great game with stupid suggestions done in mass.

I can remember 13 years ago there was maybe a half dozen MMORPGs on the market...   Ultima Online being the biggest.    Now we have more MMORPGs than you can shake a stick at, and probly less than 5% of which are worth the binary code they are made out of.

Betas applied as a testing tool, like they are supposed to be, are an invaluable service to ALL gamers and the people that participate in them by submitting 100s or 1000s of bug reports and edits are argueably unsung heroes.

Betas, as they are applied today, are really just extremely long previews. Add in the fact that some companies have hit on the idea to charge for them (sneaky via lifetime registrations for other games) indirectly and you've got Betas being used to promote a game, not polish it. It really is the worst idea ever, because either A) everyone thinks its awesome and should be released already or B) it isn't finished and people post 100s of forum subjects (instead of bug reports) about the suckage of the game. It really is lose/lose.

I honestly think there should be NO open betas. Have 12,000 closed beta slots if you need to test servers ... but don't invite a bunch of people in and then make them watch your game crash to desktop or queue for three to four hours a night.

Betas are only useful if they are truly Betas. So many Betas now days seem to be nothing more than free trials. The company gets to stress their servers and check the code against a bunch of different PCs and the players get to take a look at the game and decide if its worth their time. No real testing is done by the majority of people under these circumstances.

A real Beta tester should be listened to by the company. They go out and see how things work and will let you know if something is wrong. They write detailed bug reports, a lot of them and they fill the forums with useful posts about game play, about the feel and the immersion.

What I see now days are kids playing with a key they got because they pre-ordered another game by the company or got a collector's edition. They whine if they lose something, cry when MOBs get their final difficulty increase, throw tantrums on the forums over trivial crap. Yeah, your servers are getting stressed but so are your GMs and Moderators...

Companies get free employees if they do things right, such as actually requiring an application to be filled out that has a lot of essay style questions that will really show what kind of Beta tester you are getting. Otherwise it just seems to be a waste of time.

dear Staff:

   I found the article to be interestingly vague, but at the same time quite self-enlightening. Let me elaborate if you will.  I have taken part in a  seemingly endless list of mmogs,mmorpg, mmo games.  I have been doing so sing the very first Guild Wars was beta tested(which was my very first beta test).  At that time I was a wide eyed, stoked wanna be beta tester wih all kinds of hopes of really helping the end product and its quality. 

     fast forward, 50( or there abouts) beta tests later.  I still,in the deepest recesses of my mind have that child like excitement of having a real impact on a games development but just a bit tempered.  I can't help but think that every single beta test I have taken part in did have its purpose, especially the 1st closed beta.  everyone running around trying to find glitches, bugs, rips in the graphics, trees you could walk through, non-responsive NPCs, buildings mysteriously elevated off the ground, misspelled words or poor gramer.    In all the beta tests I have taken part in, very few times have I actually found any bugs,etc.  More importantly, or so i thought, was  giving input on the game's mechanics, UI setup.etc. I and many others along the way offered "player feedback" on what could make it a better,user friendly , easily adaptable game.  Well, alas when the final product came out, it hadn't(for the most part) changed one iota.

   EXAMPE: CrimeCraft-  I took part  extensively in the beta testing of this game and quite frankly was quite disappointed.  Throughout the testing, developers seemed to make their presence known in the forums asking for feedback.  many of us gave great ideas for making the game exciting.  Thousands of ideas will ( more likely than not) always bring out some great widely acceptable ideas that could actually improve different aspects of the game.  Hence, we were lead to believe that our ideas meant something, were of interest or at least were heard.  I can safely say  .0137% of the plausable ideas were  actually considered, and of that.0137%, .0035% was actually implemented(so to speak).

  In conclusion, I have learned from experience that generally speaking, Beta testing is more often than not used as a marketing tool(sadly to say).  Yes, many want us "beta testers" to believe out input matters, but in all actuality it really doesn't. The product has already had the ground work layed for the full mechanics, graphics,etc of the game and te developers have no interest in changing anything.  So, now I use beta testing for early access to a new game. yes I still look for bugs and such, but mostly for access to a game early on.  Which is what they wante  all along.   GEESH!! full circle.

MonTe

There is a drawback to having beta testing, you get the bad apples. Often times people who are cheaters, exploiters, hackers will use a MMO Beta Test to find bugs and exploits and use them on the live servers and they find it funny to ruin the game for everyone. They think it is cool to use bugs and exploits from the beta on live to get ahead.

I'd like to relate my experience with one closed beta test in particular as this one was the only one I found to be an actual "test". Now I've participated in many so called beta tests, some labeled as "open" or "public" and some as "closed" and they all pretty much conformed to what was described as mostly a form of advertising, a "try before you buy" scheme but called a "beta test" to attract people that might not otherwise download a "trial" version" participate as a chance to be a "tester". Aion is the latest example of one of these that I've participated in. But I had been a long time addict to the original Everquest and when the chance came up to get in on the very first of the closed beta tests for EQ2 I jumped at it. Before we were able to download the software there was the usual NDA form to sign but there was also one with a description of what testing would involve and basically it said that if you were looking to simply get a chance to play the game early you would be better off waiting for when the open beta launched as that would be when the bulk of the server stress tests were to be conducted and the only requirement for those were large numbers of players and that this first series would be many hours of performing mostly boring, repetitive tasks in order to test things like game mechanics, the AI and the like. And true to their word that's what most of it was. After logging in and creating characters we would be able to begin playing as if it was just a stress test but then came a constant stream of programmers that would ask for a certain number of volunteers to test how the AI reacted to certain situations or they would ask for a guild to test a particular raid they were working on and there was complete interaction with these programmers. They weren't kidding about it being boring and repetitive but they joked around with us and did their best to make it as much fun as was possible considering the task and I have to admit that this was the most rewarding and enjoyable beta test I ever participated in. We really got the feeling that we were an important part of the game's development. As a sort of a reward for our help, when the closed testing ended and the open testing began there was a "credits" screen that came up when you logged out that listed everyone's real name and their character's name and every guild that participated in the closed test. It was discontinued when the game went live but it was a great feeling to see my name come up on that list and to this day I have never been a part of another test like that again to my great disappointment. I keep applying to many of the closed testing offers that I can in the hopes of getting involved in something like that once more. It's a shame more companies don't do it, or if they do, then I just haven't been fortunate enough to have gotten an invitation.

I think betas are useful for both the consumers and developers. For the developer side, they can use this opportunity to gauge the communities reaction of their nearly completed project, market their MMO to the masses with a taste of what is to come and attempt to find and eliminate bugs before or shortly after launch. For the consumers its an opportunity to become familiar with the game they have been waiting for, help developers locate and remove bugs and help the community grow through word of mouth (or forums such as this).

Originally posted by bleyzwun

IMO they need to stop allowing Pre-Order customers into closed betas.  Closed Beta testers should be the type of players that will actually test, and submit bugs, suggestions, etc.  I also feel that testers who haven't logged in for a certain amount of time, or have never submitted feedback should be removed from the test.  I feel it should be important to devs to weed out people who just want a preview. 

Yup!  It also depends on the studio.  I have been in some betas that have me asking myself "what am I really doing here?" and otehrs where feedback was actively sought by the developers.  If nothing else beta testing often helps me to make a final decision about a title and saved me money.