[MOD EDIT - PLEASE KEEP THE COMMENTS CONSTRUCTIVE AND LEAVE THE FLAMING OUT OF IT] - ARARIS

Originally posted by Rohn

Given your experience with WAR, what do you think is the most pervasive problem that affects both sides' participation and enjoyment of open RvR?

Slanted phraseology aside ("flock back"), do you think that an effective, enjoyable Underdog system that makes both sides competitive might be a very significant step toward making the game more enjoyable for present players, and perhaps prompt a few past players to play again?

I agree that realm balance isn't the only problem the game has.  Then again, it's not the only problem being worked on, either.

Naming the one problem is something that I don't think I can really do, because they all have the same effect.

If someone were to name any of the following as a reason for leaving the game I would not say they are wrong, because they are valid reasons.  

1) Performance:  the game isn't responsive to players actions and the overall game is laggy.  This was personally a killer for me.

2) Keeps/forts: snoozefest.  This is what happens when developers make 11th hour changes to the game and never really get a chance to test how it plays.  I read mythics solution is to remove them [just forts?] from rvr if that says anything about their effect on the game.

3) Balance: 

   3a: class balance:  massive area effect damage and crowd control, huge disparity in the classes from realm to realm.  I am not surprised that mythic was such a huge failure in this area... again.  It is almost as if they learned nothing from DAOC.

   3b: population balance: as is being discussed

4) lack of purpose: there is no sense of ownership of anything being fought over.  The enemy is attacking A keep, not YOUR keep.  You are not defending YOUR land, but rather SOME land.  Someone called these areas PvP playpens and I think that is an acurate description.  

5) Lack of third faction

6) The disjointed mixture of pve and rvr.  The grand finale of RvR is a pve encounter?  How much focus on PvE there is to RvR?  The reward for locking down a RvR zone is a PvE zone that draws people away from RvR?    (some of this has already been addressed, but still)

7) The constant server mergers changing the servers community around so often.  It is hard to form effective alliances, realm pride and bonds between players when they are constantly being forced to move from one server to the next and splitting the communities in the process. 

I could go on, but the point is that there is no one problem that is driving people away.  MMOGirl is correct when she says people are leaving due to realm population imbalance, but she is wrong when she says it the "only" reason.  Honestly I think population imbalance is a result of the problems in the game and not the cause of them.  They only make things worse and resolving that problem would be a big step forward, but so would resolving the other issues.

Originally posted by DillingerEP

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by DillingerEP

Originally posted by Frostbite05

Originally posted by DillingerEP

I still find it funny, people who play WoW of all games... calling War care bear of all thing's. WoW is the biggest pussified game on the market right now... some how griefing apparently = hardcore. Why are you guy's not playing a game like Darkfall.... to much to handle???

 

No one really plays DF because of the poor game mechanics. Dated Graphics and lack of content. Full loot pvp will never work nor become popular because no one wants to spend a month of their time and lose it randomly to a group of ppl who just gank 1 person with 5 ppl.

Sigh, no offense but i don't give a crap... about why *you* don't like DF. 

What are you dense? How many servers does Darkfall have? How many does Aion, WAR, AoC, WoW, LOTR etc etc?

Darkfall is a failed game, FFA full loot PvP or not. It is made by amatures for pimple faced nerds who get their rocks of by griefing other people.

As for WAR. Well the PvP in WAR is meaningless, you lose your capital or capture your opponents capital, doesnt make much difference... hence why people left the game in droves. They expected a war and got eh... I dont know excactly. Not a war anyway.

 

I wasn't asking him now was I?? You can honestly keep your fucking opinion to yourself next time. I don't care how bad it is, or how many servers there are. Theres still plenty of fricken people playing, and it's still ticking. Hell i'm not even a fan of it, not my cup of tea. I went to say a game *like* Darkfall... and that can mean various other games...... goood fucking grief.

The whole point of me asking what i did, is why doesn't the person like the OP..play a game like DF.. it sounds right up his alley., he loves griefing and more hardcore then WoW PvP. So next time, before you decide to jump over someone, fricken get a clue before hand.

You said games like Darkfall and Darkfall has outdated gfx, lack of content and poor game mechanics and hence why it is not worth playing. Then you responded saying you dont care what he thinks about it.

I was trying to say that, the low population, indicates that it is not just his opinion but rather that most peoples opinion that the game sucks.

If you were trying to say a game with full loot FFA PvP and then say that instead of "games like Darkfall" because Darkfall is a pile of junk (regardless of the full loot FFA PvP).

And you were asking him (and others) why he didnt play games like Darkfall so wtf is your problem. If you are stating and not asking then dont use those things called question marks (and certainly not ten of them like you did).

I know a lot of people who didn't like PvP and mostly feared it who became PvP'ers in WAR, and now they are playing Aion and follow PvP'ing without this former fear.

WAR is THE PVP GAME as it leads all kind of players to a balanced, restricted, fair battlefield, and it was what WAR was looking for.

Ok, the game has some problems and major issues but for me is simply laughable that someone pretends that THE PVE GAME par excellence, it is, WoW is more ....wait... less *****bear.

Got camped and reskilled is not hardcore, it's just stupid. Ganking lowbies is not a PvP achievement, but a way of showing the lack of competency of the griefers.

Addenda: LOL!

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by DillingerEP

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by DillingerEP

Originally posted by Frostbite05

Originally posted by DillingerEP

I still find it funny, people who play WoW of all games... calling War care bear of all thing's. WoW is the biggest pussified game on the market right now... some how griefing apparently = hardcore. Why are you guy's not playing a game like Darkfall.... to much to handle???

 

No one really plays DF because of the poor game mechanics. Dated Graphics and lack of content. Full loot pvp will never work nor become popular because no one wants to spend a month of their time and lose it randomly to a group of ppl who just gank 1 person with 5 ppl.

Sigh, no offense but i don't give a crap... about why *you* don't like DF. 

What are you dense? How many servers does Darkfall have? How many does Aion, WAR, AoC, WoW, LOTR etc etc?

Darkfall is a failed game, FFA full loot PvP or not. It is made by amatures for pimple faced nerds who get their rocks of by griefing other people.

As for WAR. Well the PvP in WAR is meaningless, you lose your capital or capture your opponents capital, doesnt make much difference... hence why people left the game in droves. They expected a war and got eh... I dont know excactly. Not a war anyway.

 

I wasn't asking him now was I?? You can honestly keep your fucking opinion to yourself next time. I don't care how bad it is, or how many servers there are. Theres still plenty of fricken people playing, and it's still ticking. Hell i'm not even a fan of it, not my cup of tea. I went to say a game *like* Darkfall... and that can mean various other games...... goood fucking grief.

The whole point of me asking what i did, is why doesn't the person like the OP..play a game like DF.. it sounds right up his alley., he loves griefing and more hardcore then WoW PvP. So next time, before you decide to jump over someone, fricken get a clue before hand.

You said games like Darkfall and Darkfall has outdated gfx, lack of content and poor game mechanics and hence why it is not worth playing. Then you responded saying you dont care what he thinks about it.

I was trying to say that, the low population, indicates that it is not just his opinion but rather that most peoples opinion that the game sucks.

If you were trying to say a game with full loot FFA PvP and then say that instead of "games like Darkfall" because Darkfall is a pile of junk (regardless of the full loot FFA PvP).

And you were asking him (and others) why he didnt play games like Darkfall so wtf is your problem. If you are stating and not asking then dont use those things called question marks (and certainly not ten of them like you did).

You can honestly keep on with it, if you like. But get a fricken clue.... all i see was a opportune time for two people to come chime in on bashing DF. And my question was still geared towards the OP... and not you two, who think they have the god given right to throw their two cent's on something.. that really doesn't involve them. Then what the fuck should i expect from a website full of a elitist dipshit's... who think their expert on every fucking MMO out there.

Cause at the end of the day, they were nothing more but your opinions! DF has a following of people... the game isn't bad, because YOU say so. And i wasn't even asking you anyway's..... go butt in someones else's convo.

Originally posted by Daffid011

Originally posted by Rohn

Given your experience with WAR, what do you think is the most pervasive problem that affects both sides' participation and enjoyment of open RvR?

Slanted phraseology aside ("flock back"), do you think that an effective, enjoyable Underdog system that makes both sides competitive might be a very significant step toward making the game more enjoyable for present players, and perhaps prompt a few past players to play again?

I agree that realm balance isn't the only problem the game has.  Then again, it's not the only problem being worked on, either.

 

Naming the one problem is something that I don't think I can really do, because they all have the same effect.

If someone were to name any of the following as a reason for leaving the game I would not say they are wrong, because they are valid reasons.  

1) Performance:  the game isn't responsive to players actions and the overall game is laggy.  This was personally a killer for me.  Overall game performance and responsiveness was greatly improved with the last patch.

2) Keeps/forts: snoozefest.  This is what happens when developers make 11th hour changes to the game and never really get a chance to test how it plays.  I read mythics solution is to remove them [just forts?] from rvr if that says anything about their effect on the game.  I agree, they needed to streamline and improve the T4 RvR campaign.  Not enough players were getting to the city siege because of the difficulty of fortresses, so they were removed (and will be added back later with a different purpose).  Mythic definitely erred too far the other way, in that city sieges now happen too frequently, so they've got a lot more work to do.

3) Balance: 

   3a: class balance:  massive area effect damage and crowd control, huge disparity in the classes from realm to realm.  I am not surprised that mythic was such a huge failure in this area... again.  It is almost as if they learned nothing from DAOC.  You are exaggerating with regard to "massive" AoE damage and crowd control, and "huge" disparities in classes, especially given the changes of the last two patches.  It's not surprising, though, as every MMO with PvP I've ever seen has similarly overblown complaints about overpowered "FOTM" classes or abilities.  Is the class balance perfect?  Probably not.  Is everyone ever going to agree that all classes are roughly balanced in any MMO with PvP?  Probably not.  Are the classes in WAR, and DAOC for that matter, less bland and generic than those that replicate classes on both sides?  In my opinion, absolutely, and I'm more than willing to live with an increase in the perception of imbalance as a result of it.  And most of it is just that - perception, because a lot of current players think they are pretty close to "right" at this moment.

   3b: population balance: as is being discussed

4) lack of purpose: there is no sense of ownership of anything being fought over.  The enemy is attacking A keep, not YOUR keep.  You are not defending YOUR land, but rather SOME land.  Someone called these areas PvP playpens and I think that is an acurate description.  This, of course, would be based on each individual's personal opinion.  Only speaking for myself, I did feel a sense of ownership and loyalty to my realm.  In that sense, it was defending MY keeps, and MY land.  I think it takes some time invested to get to that type of realm pride.  How long did you play?

5) Lack of third faction  As it regards... what?  Realm balance?  Your belief in a need for a third faction in every game?  Why not a fourth or fifth?

6) The disjointed mixture of pve and rvr.  The grand finale of RvR is a pve encounter?  How much focus on PvE there is to RvR?  The reward for locking down a RvR zone is a PvE zone that draws people away from RvR?    (some of this has already been addressed, but still)  They have been, and still are, working to improve the city siege as a PvP event, which they need to do.  With LotD, they are damned if they do, damned if they don't, however.  The haters kneejerked all over themselves (*messy*) with the Warhammer Alliance poll that "proved" LotD "destoyed" RvR.  LotD was the new shiny, and it impacted RvR for, oh, about a week and a half.  Then it was back to RvR as usual - a point the kneejerkers didn't bother to bring up.  Of course, if they don't add things like LotD (or Hunter's Vale), they'll still be villified for having "crappy" PvE.

7) The constant server mergers changing the servers community around so often.  It is hard to form effective alliances, realm pride and bonds between players when they are constantly being forced to move from one server to the next and splitting the communities in the process.  Constant?  Really, they've been constant, like they had a whole bunch last week, a few yesterday, and plan more for today?  That kind of constant?  Huzzah for hyperbole!  Exaggerations aside, the playerbase has in fact declined, so merges have been a necessary evil in satisfying current players with PvP.  Can't do that on empty servers, right?  So, since you bring this point up, which do you think is worse - the turmoil of server merges, or playing a PvP game on an empty server?

 

I could go on, but the point is that there is no one problem that is driving people away.  MMOGirl is correct when she says people are leaving due to realm population imbalance, but she is wrong when she says it the "only" reason.  Honestly I think population imbalance is a result of the problems in the game and not the cause of them.  They only make things worse and resolving that problem would be a big step forward, but so would resolving the other issues.

I agree completely that WAR has more than one problem Mythic needs to be dealing with.  I disagree with your assessment, however, that they can't be prioritized into a list from most important (needing to be dealt with first) to least important.  As it regards PvP, the "Zerg" and the "Cycle" have been the two biggest problems with the actual conduct of open RvR, bar none.  And, open RvR is supposed to be the main focus of the game.

Keeps, whether exciting or boring to you, cannot be defended when you're outnumbered 4 to 1.

The most overpowered class in the game will still get steamrolled when in a warband that is outnumbered 4 to 1.

When outnumbered, fighting in the zone truely does become pointless, because inevitably it will all be "theirs" soon.

Enduring the "Cycle" of domination, in which one realm is dominant over the other for 3 to 6 months, and then the situation is reversed for another 3 to 6 months, is by far the most enjoyment-killing aspect of the game, in my opinion, and I think that Mythic should be correcting it with all possible speed.

Originally posted by Rohn

I agree completely that WAR has more than one problem Mythic needs to be dealing with.  I disagree with your assessment, however, that they can't be prioritized into a list from most important (needing to be dealt with first) to least important.  As it regards PvP, the "Zerg" and the "Cycle" have been the two biggest problems with the actual conduct of open RvR, bar none.  And, open RvR is supposed to be the main focus of the game.

Keeps, whether exciting or boring to you, cannot be defended when you're outnumbered 4 to 1.

The most overpowered class in the game will still get steamrolled when in a warband that is outnumbered 4 to 1.

When outnumbered, fighting in the zone truely does become pointless, because inevitably it will all be "theirs" soon.

Enduring the "Cycle" of domination, in which one realm is dominant over the other for 3 to 6 months, and then the situation is reversed for another 3 to 6 months, is by far the most enjoyment-killing aspect of the game, in my opinion, and I think that Mythic should be correcting it with all possible speed.

Ill address each by point:

First, the overall tone the fixes by mythic is "recent" and "improved" or "still working on it".  To me that says the problems still exist and I'm pretty familiar with Mythics brand of patching.  It is very similar to when I played on test server for daoc. 

1) Performance: Greatly improved doesn't sound like fixed to me.  I'll take your word that it is better, but it sounds like it can still be an issue for people and one that is a game breaker.

2) This is typical of mythics style of "fixing" something.  Wild and huge swings between not enough or to much.  It takes this company soooo long to get anything right.  That has been the overshadowing theme for the last year.  I am not the least bit surprised they got it wrong, because that is the typical results.  Removing fortresses is a result of mythic being unable to resolve the issues.  If performance was "greatly improved" I don't think they would have been removed.

3) class balance:  Im not talking about FOTM classes, but the overall effectivness of ALL classes in RvR.  You cannot honestly say that AOE and Crowd Control have not been problems when Mythic has spent the last several patches directly admitting it is a problem and trying to fix it, which is still a problem.  Bombs groups are fine?

4) lack of purpose: Keep swapping.  Two warbands actively avoid each other to attack empty keeps while purposefully letting the enemy capture their keeps.  I think that shows how little the areas of the world matter to the players. 

5) SOME people think a third faction makes for better RvR.  Since realm vs realm isn't in every game then it doesn't matter in those games.  I personally think a third faction would be the biggest benefit to warhammer, but that is just me.

6) All I am saying is that there is a disconnect between this games implementation of RvR and PvE that is often at odds with itself.  Most of the time one detracts from the other and that is not the players faults.  Sure mythic is STILL working on it, but it is a problem.

7) The last time I looked there was at least SEVEN rounds of player transfers.  That is not including the forced server transfers when they closed servers.  In comparison to games that have been out for 5-10 years having 0-1 server mergers, yes I can say with full confidence that warhammer has had a constant stream of server mergers.  Don't mistake that for being regular or on some schedule, but I cannot think of any game that comes close to the amount of mergers as warhammer, let alone in such a ridiculously small time frame.  This isn't even including the voluntary rerolls that countless people have done just to find population when the game was in massive decline.  

So yeah, I think my points stand up rather well.  Which is the most important is just a matter of opinion.  I guess if there was a priority it should focus on which is seen as the biggest problem, but hard to tell with any certainty which that is. 

 Where to start... while I was playing game major game breaking points for me were:1)constant lag and bad or unresponsive overall client performance as much as I enjoyed WAR  despite those claims that settings are to high blah blah proven fact is that WAR is just a badly coded engine where they cannot fix even basic issues for over a year now

2)freaking bad path finding and collision/  stuck into almost anything from chains into BS or some rock or fence I had to wait once for whole siege to end to end stucked in a freakin` fence and could not relog due to population limit.

3) patches which destroy more than they fix (WL`s pet who dissapears or just won`t atack target etc.) and claims that it will be fixed in a next patch which again more hurts than in fixes some 

4) sieges of capitols are just unplayable T4 seriously lacks content and even instances were bugged to hell and there is again issue of constant disconects from game even when you enter new zone or entering instance 

5) constant merges you log into game and suddenly there guilds of which you never heard off I have welcomed all new players on Eltharion and karak -norn but just so many were tired of waiting to get theyre classes fixed and much of them just quited till some new miracolous patch don`t fix not all but just those problems that we wait them to fix since launch merges ruined game for many and in those conditions you cannot form or even last in some strong alliance/comunity

6)Mythic fixes problems like this :community goes :"cmmon guys give us a square " and all powerfull mythic goes ok but in the new patch you get triangle in pink .....no one needs it cause we ask for square but you got pink triangle so do somethink usefull with it I have lvld 4 characters on Norn and Eltharion to 40 and even considering of giving it a second chance but when I read these posts I see that nothing has changed even with latest patches.

so is it woth to give this game a second go?

Originally posted by Qrajber

so is it woth to give this game a second go?

 

Honestly, I'd say no. Not if T4 is important to you.