WAR also did a few things with selling beta slots. They sold beta codes in warhammer comics or art books. I believe it was something like one code per every 10 books. To me this was not a very good practice at the time and made them seem far more greedy, and that the only way to sell the books was if it had a chance for beta. I am also a bit more bitter because at the time I had been following war for over a year already and been aplied for beta since the day they opened beta testing up. Then my roommate goes out and buys a few books and gets a beta key after just hearing about the game a week earlier from me. Guess I'm just spiteful that I never got into beta after long term interest and someone can go out and buy it. Maybe I should have just given in tried my luck at wining a code through the book.

Originally posted by Loekii

 

Its a real world out there, where the fine print is king and its the buyer's responsibility to be aware.  We are not talking about Mommy and Daddy making promises to you, but rather real life actions, with real life consequences.

 

If you are dumb enough to purchase something on an assumption, then you are going to get burned - be it not getting to be the first one into a Beta test, discovering that there are extra hidden charges on your car lease,or discovering that discounted mortgage payment comes with with a big balloon payment at the end.

 

While I think its a cheesy sales perk, I think even less of people that claim they were 'scammed' because they assumed something that was never there.

 

People need to take responsibility for their own foolish actions, rather than trying to place blame on some 'big bad game company'.

 

If this were a gym membership, car lease or refinance, people would be telling you its your fault for not reading the fine print - aka not knowing precisely what you are purchasing, but rather just assuming what you will get.

 

I don't think that's the point the OP is trying to make.

These game companies are shooting themselves in the foot.  Consumers will believe what they believe, whether it's a notion of getting scammed or that the game is a finished product, whatever.  But the results of feeding these betas to people that take them for demos is bringing about misleading expectations in those consumers.  I believe that's what his point is.

There is little benefit to the company to sign anybody and everybody up for open beta, save for stress tests.  They get limited, possibly misleading feedback, and those folks see the game in an inferior state; save for all those that are still really betas at launch.

Originally posted by Persephassa

The simple solution for me is to never spend money on something with the intention of relying on the company to follow through on nothing more than a promise. Advertised premiums or discounts are usually nothing more than a swindle. A good product can be sold soley on its merits of quality.

 

Champion's Online must not be succeeding like they would have wished for them to have to resort to swindling an entire different demographic (Star Trekkies) into propping up Cryptic's other game by purchasing lifetime subs(oh my) & 6-month subs for a game they have no interest in.

Not a valid theory here, as the offer was available before Champions even went live. So there's no chance the STO beta was offered in an attempt to "prop up" CO's "perceived failure."

Originally posted by Ghostmind

Originally posted by Persephassa

The simple solution for me is to never spend money on something with the intention of relying on the company to follow through on nothing more than a promise. Advertised premiums or discounts are usually nothing more than a swindle. A good product can be sold soley on its merits of quality.

 

Champion's Online must not be succeeding like they would have wished for them to have to resort to swindling an entire different demographic (Star Trekkies) into propping up Cryptic's other game by purchasing lifetime subs(oh my) & 6-month subs for a game they have no interest in.

 

Not a valid theory here, as the offer was available before Champions even went live. So there's no chance the STO beta was offered in an attempt to "prop up" CO's "perceived failure."

Or maybe they knew CO wouldn't keep enough subscribers past the first month so they con people into purchasing 6-month, lifetime subscriptions? Makes sense to me.

Can't disagree with the OP on either point. Selling beta access is not a great idea, even if it makes good business sense.

Not publishing sub numbers is almost something governments should force by passing laws requiring them to.

Almost.

 Summary: The Marketing/Advertising "spin" that people are allowed to get away with is stupid. 

Response: Agreed. 

Good write up Jon I agree on all accounts although I go have one alternate theory re NC Soft.

I belive the NC Soft count box sales, as its the only MMO maker that models its business around box sales. How does one do this? Well let me present a path of logic to you all made up of speculation and subjecture but based on one fact and one fact alone.

Bear with me, I have 4 accounts for Aion Mum, Dad and the Two kids. Recently one of our accounts got banned for apparent third party program use. My young son was very mad. Unfortunately I do not allow him to use in game chat for any reason and as young kids tend to do they love repetitive tasks. Can you see easily what asuumption might be made here? However getting back on point.

Here is that one Fact: Have any of you noticed the real bots I.E. "fgfgffg" how they go back and sit down at the precise point and rest every time they get their health down? Now from what I have read on automated programs for aion most rely on pathing, or some kind of image comparison but they cannot achieve going back to the precise, exact same in game location to the pixel. The only way to do that is to have access to game code on the server that allows a Admin or Dev style function to return to the exact same pixel.

Okay so we have potentially either NC running these bots or they employ a third party to run them and provide NC secondary revenue streams from gold farming and RMT. Now this is why a MMO would be measured by box sales. The reason being is if you are running such a scam  it would make perfect business sense to only occasionally ban the real bots and go after actual innocent players and use any excuse with no comeback - because what will most players do? GO BUY ANOTHER BOX!! or pack their bags and go else where.

Secondary supporting fact: To be honest the amount of posts out there of banned people stating the cliche 'I have done nothing wrong but I got banned' seems to be ten fold from NC Soft products more so than any other company making MMO's

So just an alternate theory as to why NC Soft in particular may well be correct in using Box Sales to measure its success?

You Tell Me.

Originally posted by Ghostmind

Originally posted by Persephassa

The simple solution for me is to never spend money on something with the intention of relying on the company to follow through on nothing more than a promise. Advertised premiums or discounts are usually nothing more than a swindle. A good product can be sold soley on its merits of quality.

 

Champion's Online must not be succeeding like they would have wished for them to have to resort to swindling an entire different demographic (Star Trekkies) into propping up Cryptic's other game by purchasing lifetime subs(oh my) & 6-month subs for a game they have no interest in.

 

Not a valid theory here, as the offer was available before Champions even went live. So there's no chance the STO beta was offered in an attempt to "prop up" CO's "perceived failure."

 

STO was used to sucker more people into buying CO subs. Cryptic knew they could make more money by suckering in Trekkie's who were dying for the STO game by hooking them into CO first. CO was an afterthought when Crytic got the license for STO. Champions was a way for Cryptic to show to Atari and Paramount they could handle the STO game. If your too blind to see that then stop drinking the Kool aid.

Originally posted by Persephassa

Originally posted by Ghostmind

Originally posted by Persephassa

The simple solution for me is to never spend money on something with the intention of relying on the company to follow through on nothing more than a promise. Advertised premiums or discounts are usually nothing more than a swindle. A good product can be sold soley on its merits of quality.

 

Champion's Online must not be succeeding like they would have wished for them to have to resort to swindling an entire different demographic (Star Trekkies) into propping up Cryptic's other game by purchasing lifetime subs(oh my) & 6-month subs for a game they have no interest in.

 

Not a valid theory here, as the offer was available before Champions even went live. So there's no chance the STO beta was offered in an attempt to "prop up" CO's "perceived failure."

Or maybe they knew CO wouldn't keep enough subscribers past the first month so they con people into purchasing 6-month, lifetime subscriptions? Makes sense to me.

I will concede if you can provide anything concrete, and I mean *anything*, in any situation, from any game ever, to support that beyond a tin foil hat-wearing conspiracy theorist's deluded rantings. "They knew it was going to fail"...... Come on. Are you kidding me?

The point is not whether I (and others like me) were stupid to fall for Cryptic's sales pitch (we were).  And I do not particularly even care at this point whether I am ever in closed beta - I actually typically prefer NOT to beta test a game.  I only wanted to in this case because I want to much for this game to not suck (which, after years of MMO playing, is about all I can hope for).  My complete and total disgust with Cryptic stems from the fact that they made such a bone-headed offer in the first place and THEN did not follow through on it.  Generating guaranteed bad press among what should be your most devoted fan base is SOE-worthy.  Good move!  :P

Originally posted by Persephassa

 

Or maybe they knew CO wouldn't keep enough subscribers past the first month so they con people into purchasing 6-month, lifetime subscriptions? Makes sense to me.

I really can't imagine that they could come to any other conclusion.  With CoX having nearly limitless potential content and DC Online on the horizon, they had to make a game where you just can't put down the controller to survive.  CO certainly wasn't that game.

Originally posted by Danubus

Originally posted by Ghostmind

Originally posted by Persephassa

The simple solution for me is to never spend money on something with the intention of relying on the company to follow through on nothing more than a promise. Advertised premiums or discounts are usually nothing more than a swindle. A good product can be sold soley on its merits of quality.

 

Champion's Online must not be succeeding like they would have wished for them to have to resort to swindling an entire different demographic (Star Trekkies) into propping up Cryptic's other game by purchasing lifetime subs(oh my) & 6-month subs for a game they have no interest in.

 

Not a valid theory here, as the offer was available before Champions even went live. So there's no chance the STO beta was offered in an attempt to "prop up" CO's "perceived failure."

 

STO was used to sucker more people into buying CO subs. Cryptic knew they could make more money by suckering in Trekkie's who were dying for the STO game by hooking them into CO first. CO was an afterthought when Crytic got the license for STO. Champions was a way for Cryptic to show to Atari and Paramount they could handle the STO game. If your too blind to see that then stop drinking the Kool aid.

 

See my above post. Cryptic offering the STO beta with extended CO subscriptions was purely a marketing-centered money-making scheme and an exploitation of the hype garnered by the use of an obscenely popular license.

All you have to do is say the words Star Trek and a lot people will pay damn near any amount of money for whatever it is. That's what Cryptic did here, they took advantage of that knowledge. The thing is that they needed something concrete to tie it to, that being Champions Online. They would've tied it to anything given the chance. In this case, going with CO was just the logical, and only, option.

Originally posted by Ghostmind

 

I will concede if you can provide anything concrete, and I mean *anything*, in any situation, from any game ever, to support that beyond a tin foil hat-wearing conspiracy theorist's deluded rantings. "They knew it was going to fail"...... Come on. Are you kidding me?

The folks at Tabula Rasa knew. 

Nobody knows for certain, of course.  But, as a developer, marketer, whatever, you sit down and play your game, do you honestly think you won't know whether it's any good or not?

There are people in these companies that are hired specifically for making these sorts of projections.

Edit:  In my earlier example, I'm sure the film company knew "Wing Commander" was gonna be a stinkbomb of a movie, and they needed to do something to make sure they didn't lost the 40 million they spent on it.  So the answer, a long anticipated trailer.

Originally posted by Robsolf

I don't think that's the point the OP is trying to make.

These game companies are shooting themselves in the foot.  Consumers will believe what they believe, whether it's a notion of getting scammed or that the game is a finished product, whatever.  But the results of feeding these betas to people that take them for demos is bringing about misleading expectations in those consumers.  I believe that's what his point is.

There is little benefit to the company to sign anybody and everybody up for open beta, save for stress tests.  They get limited, possibly misleading feedback, and those folks see the game in an inferior state; save for all those that are still really betas at launch.

 

Oh, on that aspect I agree.  I think it was a bad decision to offer CB slots as part of package.   It just easier to have people submit applications, to create a pool of the demographic you need, and maybe hand out a few keys as awards and media stuff.

good stuff

im really glad to see you positions beign taken against controversial issues.  this website, like any source of information should address real issues and not spew candy coated paid reviews all the time.  It means much more to the community to hear somethign meaningful from the staff than from concerned forum posters.  Everything posted gets turned into trolling/flame wars but the ignorant. 

Keep up the good work.  Never comprimise integrity.

 And if Star Trek Online tanks(I'm hoping it doesn't, I need an alternative to Eve Online) just think of how foolish Cryptic will look. 

I'm at the point where I believe the whole idea of "beta" needs to be rethought....from concept to implementation.  Heck..even the definitions.  How do thousands of random invites handed out all over the world equal "closed"?  How could a "beta" last less than three months when it takes at least half that long just to design major changes on PAPER.

The last beta I was in made this painfully clear.  They did it so bass-ackwards it was almost laughable.  Shut out most of the established community for sign ups from outside news sites.  Didn't set limits on players computers.  No directed testing.  No pipeline of fixes.  Devs refused to discuss in the forums, saying all posts, including suggestions, must be in ticket form.  Heck, they even encouraged the creation of "game guides" during the beta.  Imagine that...a company telling the free-to-play testers that they should write down the shortcuts to success in the game so that they would be on hand for anyone at release!  Ridiculous.

The whole thing is just gone off the tracks.  I don't even think you could get a concensus amongst fifty of the posters here about what a beta test is, or should be, let alone the developers, general public, and press.

It's time for a redesign. 

Originally posted by Novva

My complete and total disgust with Cryptic stems from the fact that they made such a bone-headed offer in the first place and THEN did not follow through on it.

But they ARE following trough on it. But because they want a more diverse set of testers than people who bought their way in, they obviously let in others too.

Nowhere it said CO-preorders would be the very first and only first to get into Closed Beta. Yet here you claim they are not following up on their promises. CO-preorders WILL get in the closed beta. It just started, have some patience!

And no, I'm not a trekkie or Cryptic fanboy.

Originally posted by Bountytaker

I'm at the point where I believe the whole idea of "beta" needs to be rethought....from concept to implementation.  Heck..even the definitions.  How do thousands of random invites handed out all over the world equal "closed"?  How could a "beta" last less than three months when it takes at least half that long just to design major changes on PAPER.

The last beta I was in made this painfully clear.  They did it so bass-ackwards it was almost laughable.  Shut out most of the established community for sign ups from outside news sites.  Didn't set limits on players computers.  No directed testing.  No pipeline of fixes.  Devs refused to discuss in the forums, saying all posts, including suggestions, must be in ticket form.  Heck, they even encouraged the creation of "game guides" during the beta.  Imagine that...a company telling the free-to-play testers that they should write down the shortcuts to success in the game so that they would be on hand for anyone at release!  Ridiculous.

The whole thing is just gone off the tracks.  I don't even think you could get a concensus amongst fifty of the posters here about what a beta test is, or should be, let alone the developers, general public, and press.

 

It's time for a redesign. 

On this point, I couldn't agree more. One of the biggest causes for underperformance in MMOs is likely a lack of in-depth, quality testing.

Originally posted by Ghostmind

Originally posted by Bountytaker

I'm at the point where I believe the whole idea of "beta" needs to be rethought....from concept to implementation.  Heck..even the definitions.  How do thousands of random invites handed out all over the world equal "closed"?  How could a "beta" last less than three months when it takes at least half that long just to design major changes on PAPER.

The last beta I was in made this painfully clear.  They did it so bass-ackwards it was almost laughable.  Shut out most of the established community for sign ups from outside news sites.  Didn't set limits on players computers.  No directed testing.  No pipeline of fixes.  Devs refused to discuss in the forums, saying all posts, including suggestions, must be in ticket form.  Heck, they even encouraged the creation of "game guides" during the beta.  Imagine that...a company telling the free-to-play testers that they should write down the shortcuts to success in the game so that they would be on hand for anyone at release!  Ridiculous.

The whole thing is just gone off the tracks.  I don't even think you could get a concensus amongst fifty of the posters here about what a beta test is, or should be, let alone the developers, general public, and press.

 

It's time for a redesign. 

 

On this point, I couldn't agree more. One of the biggest causes for underperformance in MMOs is likely a lack of in-depth, quality testing.

 

It's hard to do that when a company like Cryptic is having a short closed beta then throwing open the gates to the masses with an Open beta and the game is still full of issues and bugs. I hope they learned that lesson from CO, but STO is getting a short beta as well.  Cryptic seemed to care more about it's schedule than it did the integrity of it's game.