As an RPG fan who also enjoys reading; I care about lore.

I find it fun to read about something then experience it in-game; like visiting Rivendell in LOTRO, or the Sarlacc in SWG. I don't consider the story to be as important as the gameplay, but having good, consistent fiction behind a game is a definate bonus for me.

I love the reading about the lore of the game.  The immersion into a game is what gets me "hooked".  LotRO has great storyline quests.  Part of the joy of the game is reading the quests and LotRO has some of the most well-written quests I've come across.  Even if in the end it's just a delivery, I want to know why I'm delivering it, and why they can't.

Of course, while I'm standing there reading these quests, I see people come up, click the person and leave.  I have hard time understanding why people play an MMORPG, and not read the story.  After all. it is a role-playing game.

Agreed! Let's just dump any bit of lore from mmo's.  I mean, its not like a story is necessary to create quests, items, classes, and content in general, right?

/end sarcasm

The only mmo that's currently in the process of being released that I would actually read al the quests/dialogue is swtor because bioware has a way of engrossing you into the story.

I wouldn't play an MMO if the lore wasn't any good. I like having a reason for doing things.

One of the main reasons I played Everquest 2 for so long over any other game is because of the story it has...the histroy and the lore.  Still, to this day, in that game, can find something that bring back old old memories form Everquest.  That kind of lore lives on in games.  Even with WoW the story comes from a history of games that Blizzard did, so people that played those warcraft games know that history of the places.

Try to play a game with no histrory or story to it and find how quickly killing 10 rats just to kill 10 rats eats away at your soul.

Story does have a BIG part in any RPG. MMO or not. I found that out in the long years of MMO stagnation. Grind is grind, fantasy is fantasy, blah blah. Until something grabs you kicking and screaming into something these days, most of the lore is missed.

I just started Risen and The Witcher (yes at the same time....what? Is that so wrong?). Man o man...if an MMO could capture the depth and mood of even just these two games, let alone Oblivion or Fallout 3?

What would MMOs be like then?

Hmmmm?

I really enjoyed Asheron's Call when it first came out.  I played it constantly and could never get enough.  I feel lore is very important in a game as it's what gives a game its depth.  Knowing what happened to who and when is integral to progressing the plotline that can be unique to a character.

Lore is what brings me to the game. It provides substance to the world that I'm participating in. To me without lore there isn't much continuity or coherence to the game world. Eye candy graphics and stellar mechanics aren't going to bring a lot of meaning to my character and or my characters persona.

If people are playing just to blow off some steam or a time filler before they head out to dinner I can understand that lore isn't going to be that important to them, but to me lore is the backbone of the game.

i care lol i started with EQ

---

Originally posted by BuzWeaver
If people are playing just to blow off some steam or a time filler before they head out to dinner I can understand that lore isn't going to be that important to them, but to me lore is the backbone of the game.

---

I did this with Diablo 2. It did have a story to me, but I did not care because I could get on and off within an hour. The first time through, the story worked. After that...../meh

Originally posted by grunty

I'm 54. I've been playing computer games since the era of Winchester Drives on main frame computers.  The story of a game keeps me interested in the game.  I don't kill 10 rats to get XP. I kill 10 rats because the widow asked me to help her.

Yes, exactly.  THIS is what differentiates an mmoRPG from an mmoANYTHINGELSE.  I'm playing the game to play a ROLE, to be part of an evolving story.

I also found it comical that someone said "no one in WoW reads the quests." Yes, and that's why THAT particular game is full of people asking stupid questions in general chat about where things are in quests and what they're supposed to do.  I think the problem with THAT game, is that a lot of the people that play don't READ period.  Oh sure....they may know HOW to read (maybe)....but they don't enjoy reading.

A lot of us "older folks" came from text based MMOs (MUDs, and the like) where reading was a very integral PART of the game. I want to know WHY I'm going to kill "10 rats," as you said.  If I wanted to just mindlessly kill things....I'd play an FPS game (and I sometimes DO, if "mindless killing" is what I am in the mood for). lol

Originally posted by girlgeek

Originally posted by grunty

I'm 54. I've been playing computer games since the era of Winchester Drives on main frame computers.  The story of a game keeps me interested in the game.  I don't kill 10 rats to get XP. I kill 10 rats because the widow asked me to help her.

 

Yes, exactly.  THIS is what differentiates an mmoRPG from an mmoANYTHINGELSE.  I'm playing the game to play a ROLE, to be part of an evolving story.

I also found it comical that someone said "no one in WoW reads the quests." Yes, and that's why THAT particular game is full of people asking stupid questions in general chat about where things are in quests and what they're supposed to do.  I think the problem with THAT game, is that a lot of the people that play don't READ period.  Oh sure....they may know HOW to read (maybe)....but they don't enjoy reading.

A lot of us "older folks" came from text based MMOs (MUDs, and the like) where reading was a very integral PART of the game. I want to know WHY I'm going to kill "10 rats," as you said.  If I wanted to just mindlessly kill things....I'd play an FPS game (and I sometimes DO, if "mindless killing" is what I am in the mood for). lol

It doesn't make any difference WHY you are going to kill ten rats, because the story the NPC is telling you is bullshit, meaningless, basically a lie.

If the game world was dynamic then people would actually be interested in reading the story, because it would not be a lie.

In single player games the NPC says go kill ten rats....Because if you do it will save the town. If you don't the town will be over run with rats, everyone will get the plague and die, and the town will disappear off the map.

And guess what? The NPC is telling the truth! All this will actually happen! and the game world will be forever changed depending on what you do.

In an MMORPG the NPC says the same thing, but he's lying. The town will still be there whether you kill the rats or not. The only thing that actually happens is you get xp and loot, s....

How many rats do I kill, where are they, and what do I get? That's the only things the nPC is saying that are actually true.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by girlgeek

Originally posted by grunty

I'm 54. I've been playing computer games since the era of Winchester Drives on main frame computers.  The story of a game keeps me interested in the game.  I don't kill 10 rats to get XP. I kill 10 rats because the widow asked me to help her.

 

Yes, exactly.  THIS is what differentiates an mmoRPG from an mmoANYTHINGELSE.  I'm playing the game to play a ROLE, to be part of an evolving story.

I also found it comical that someone said "no one in WoW reads the quests." Yes, and that's why THAT particular game is full of people asking stupid questions in general chat about where things are in quests and what they're supposed to do.  I think the problem with THAT game, is that a lot of the people that play don't READ period.  Oh sure....they may know HOW to read (maybe)....but they don't enjoy reading.

A lot of us "older folks" came from text based MMOs (MUDs, and the like) where reading was a very integral PART of the game. I want to know WHY I'm going to kill "10 rats," as you said.  If I wanted to just mindlessly kill things....I'd play an FPS game (and I sometimes DO, if "mindless killing" is what I am in the mood for). lol

 

It doesn't make any difference WHY you are going to kill ten rats, because the story the NPC is telling you is bullshit, meaningless, basically a lie.

If the game world was dynamic then people would actually be interested in reading the story, because it would not be a lie.

In single player games the NPC says go kill ten rats....Because if you do it will save the town. If you don't the town will be over run with rats, everyone will get the plague and die, and the town will disappear off the map.

And guess what? The NPC is telling the truth! All this will actually happen! and the game world will be forever changed depending on what you do.

In an MMORPG the NPC says the same thing, but he's lying. The town will still be there whether you kill the rats or not. The only thing that actually happens is you get xp and loot, s....

How many rats do I kill, where are they, and what do I get? That's the only things the nPC is saying that are actually true.

Man....do people not exercise their imaginations at ALL anymore?  I think not.  And it's BECAUSE they don't READ.  Do you read books?  I bet you don't.  Because, after all....fiction is a LIE.  WTF??  

Some people ARE actually interested in reading the story.  If all you want to do is kill shit and "get things," then why don't you get the hell OUT of mmoRPGS and go play yourself a nice speedy little FPS?  I don't get your reasoning....OR the reasoning of anyone else that chooses this genre and then hates really....everything ABOUT the genre.

Originally posted by girlgeek

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by girlgeek

Originally posted by grunty

I'm 54. I've been playing computer games since the era of Winchester Drives on main frame computers.  The story of a game keeps me interested in the game.  I don't kill 10 rats to get XP. I kill 10 rats because the widow asked me to help her.

 

Yes, exactly.  THIS is what differentiates an mmoRPG from an mmoANYTHINGELSE.  I'm playing the game to play a ROLE, to be part of an evolving story.

I also found it comical that someone said "no one in WoW reads the quests." Yes, and that's why THAT particular game is full of people asking stupid questions in general chat about where things are in quests and what they're supposed to do.  I think the problem with THAT game, is that a lot of the people that play don't READ period.  Oh sure....they may know HOW to read (maybe)....but they don't enjoy reading.

A lot of us "older folks" came from text based MMOs (MUDs, and the like) where reading was a very integral PART of the game. I want to know WHY I'm going to kill "10 rats," as you said.  If I wanted to just mindlessly kill things....I'd play an FPS game (and I sometimes DO, if "mindless killing" is what I am in the mood for). lol

 

It doesn't make any difference WHY you are going to kill ten rats, because the story the NPC is telling you is bullshit, meaningless, basically a lie.

If the game world was dynamic then people would actually be interested in reading the story, because it would not be a lie.

In single player games the NPC says go kill ten rats....Because if you do it will save the town. If you don't the town will be over run with rats, everyone will get the plague and die, and the town will disappear off the map.

And guess what? The NPC is telling the truth! All this will actually happen! and the game world will be forever changed depending on what you do.

In an MMORPG the NPC says the same thing, but he's lying. The town will still be there whether you kill the rats or not. The only thing that actually happens is you get xp and loot, s....

How many rats do I kill, where are they, and what do I get? That's the only things the nPC is saying that are actually true.

 

Man....do people not exercise their imaginations at ALL anymore?  I think not.  And it's BECAUSE they don't READ.  Do you read books?  I bet you don't.  Because, after all....fiction is a LIE.  WTF??  

Some people ARE actually interested in reading the story.  If all you want to do is kill shit and "get things," then why don't you get the hell OUT of mmoRPGS and go play yourself a nice speedy little FPS?  I don't get your reasoning....OR the reasoning of anyone else that chooses this genre and then hates really....everything ABOUT the genre.

Here's just a few examples of authors whose works I've read extensively,

Frank Herbert,

Ursula Leguin

Larry Niven

Fritz Leiber

Roger Zelazny

Isaac Asimov

Frederick Pohl

Harlan Ellison

John Varley

Poul Anderson

Greg Bear

William Gibson

Orson Scott Card

Jack Williamson,

Lately I've been trying some newer authors, and I recently finished Unclean Spirits by M.L.N. Hanover.

I am currently reading Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell by Susanna Clarke.

Originally posted by chrisel

Seriously.

 

I am starting to become an "old" man, and I have played many MMO's since the release of Anarchy Online. This means almost 10 years of hardcore MMO gaming. In these years I have still to meet someone who cares about the lore. I have many friends who plays MMO's, and none of them, including my sons, my sister & her boyfriend, friends at my job etc etc cares about the lore.

Reason I bring up this subject, is that recently many, or even most MMO's, has increased focus on its lore, and want their players to have a more including part of it. I find this quite surprising, as this is not what me nor any I know would want an MMO to focus on. Am I just a weird odd statistic with same odd statistical friends? Cause the lore has NEVER been a topic when we have discussed the different MMO's we played.

How come the game producers has started to focus on lore, when I feel most of us just give a damn about it anyway...?

I don't know about "not caring for the lore". My fiancee and I LOVED the lore in Ultima Online and LoTRO. In these games though the lore has been built previously. For UO it was built during the whole Ultima series (still MY FAVORITE rpg series ever) and in LoTRO it was obviously built up throughout the books.

So there are people that care about the lore, but at the same time it is a game being played. 

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by girlgeek

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by girlgeek

Originally posted by grunty

I'm 54. I've been playing computer games since the era of Winchester Drives on main frame computers.  The story of a game keeps me interested in the game.  I don't kill 10 rats to get XP. I kill 10 rats because the widow asked me to help her.

 

Yes, exactly.  THIS is what differentiates an mmoRPG from an mmoANYTHINGELSE.  I'm playing the game to play a ROLE, to be part of an evolving story.

I also found it comical that someone said "no one in WoW reads the quests." Yes, and that's why THAT particular game is full of people asking stupid questions in general chat about where things are in quests and what they're supposed to do.  I think the problem with THAT game, is that a lot of the people that play don't READ period.  Oh sure....they may know HOW to read (maybe)....but they don't enjoy reading.

A lot of us "older folks" came from text based MMOs (MUDs, and the like) where reading was a very integral PART of the game. I want to know WHY I'm going to kill "10 rats," as you said.  If I wanted to just mindlessly kill things....I'd play an FPS game (and I sometimes DO, if "mindless killing" is what I am in the mood for). lol

 

It doesn't make any difference WHY you are going to kill ten rats, because the story the NPC is telling you is bullshit, meaningless, basically a lie.

If the game world was dynamic then people would actually be interested in reading the story, because it would not be a lie.

In single player games the NPC says go kill ten rats....Because if you do it will save the town. If you don't the town will be over run with rats, everyone will get the plague and die, and the town will disappear off the map.

And guess what? The NPC is telling the truth! All this will actually happen! and the game world will be forever changed depending on what you do.

In an MMORPG the NPC says the same thing, but he's lying. The town will still be there whether you kill the rats or not. The only thing that actually happens is you get xp and loot, s....

How many rats do I kill, where are they, and what do I get? That's the only things the nPC is saying that are actually true.

 

Man....do people not exercise their imaginations at ALL anymore?  I think not.  And it's BECAUSE they don't READ.  Do you read books?  I bet you don't.  Because, after all....fiction is a LIE.  WTF??  

Some people ARE actually interested in reading the story.  If all you want to do is kill shit and "get things," then why don't you get the hell OUT of mmoRPGS and go play yourself a nice speedy little FPS?  I don't get your reasoning....OR the reasoning of anyone else that chooses this genre and then hates really....everything ABOUT the genre.

 

Here's just a few examples of authors whose works I've read extensively,

Frank Herbert,

Ursula Leguin

Larry Niven

Fritz Leiber

Roger Zelazny

Isaac Asimov

Frederick Pohl

Harlan Ellison

John Varley

Poul Anderson

Greg Bear

William Gibson

Orson Scott Card

Jack Williamson,

 

Lately I've been trying some newer authors, and I recently finished Unclean Spirits by M.L.N. Hanover.

I am currently reading Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell by Susanna Clarke.

 

So then....if you are able to USE your imagination, which obviously you ARE.....why does that not stretch into gaming for you?  I'm just curious.....

Because I can see where the non-reading population could easily feel like you do about RPGs and MMORPGs, but it's hard for me to understand why YOU feel the way you do about them.  I mean, the suspension of disbelief is really part of gaming in ANY game.  So is your complaint really just the fact that "the world doesn't change in any way that can be measured?"  Blizzard has at least TRIED to do some "changing" with it's phasing technology, but in MMOs that presents an entirely NEW problem, being that if you're not in the same place in quest progression, you don't see the world the same as the next person....

So, I'm not wanting to argue....just wanting to understand the seemingly recent trend to not reading quests or caring about lore, etc.

Originally posted by girlgeek

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by girlgeek

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by girlgeek

Originally posted by grunty

I'm 54. I've been playing computer games since the era of Winchester Drives on main frame computers.  The story of a game keeps me interested in the game.  I don't kill 10 rats to get XP. I kill 10 rats because the widow asked me to help her.

 

Yes, exactly.  THIS is what differentiates an mmoRPG from an mmoANYTHINGELSE.  I'm playing the game to play a ROLE, to be part of an evolving story.

I also found it comical that someone said "no one in WoW reads the quests." Yes, and that's why THAT particular game is full of people asking stupid questions in general chat about where things are in quests and what they're supposed to do.  I think the problem with THAT game, is that a lot of the people that play don't READ period.  Oh sure....they may know HOW to read (maybe)....but they don't enjoy reading.

A lot of us "older folks" came from text based MMOs (MUDs, and the like) where reading was a very integral PART of the game. I want to know WHY I'm going to kill "10 rats," as you said.  If I wanted to just mindlessly kill things....I'd play an FPS game (and I sometimes DO, if "mindless killing" is what I am in the mood for). lol

 

It doesn't make any difference WHY you are going to kill ten rats, because the story the NPC is telling you is bullshit, meaningless, basically a lie.

If the game world was dynamic then people would actually be interested in reading the story, because it would not be a lie.

In single player games the NPC says go kill ten rats....Because if you do it will save the town. If you don't the town will be over run with rats, everyone will get the plague and die, and the town will disappear off the map.

And guess what? The NPC is telling the truth! All this will actually happen! and the game world will be forever changed depending on what you do.

In an MMORPG the NPC says the same thing, but he's lying. The town will still be there whether you kill the rats or not. The only thing that actually happens is you get xp and loot, s....

How many rats do I kill, where are they, and what do I get? That's the only things the nPC is saying that are actually true.

 

Man....do people not exercise their imaginations at ALL anymore?  I think not.  And it's BECAUSE they don't READ.  Do you read books?  I bet you don't.  Because, after all....fiction is a LIE.  WTF??  

Some people ARE actually interested in reading the story.  If all you want to do is kill shit and "get things," then why don't you get the hell OUT of mmoRPGS and go play yourself a nice speedy little FPS?  I don't get your reasoning....OR the reasoning of anyone else that chooses this genre and then hates really....everything ABOUT the genre.

 

Here's just a few examples of authors whose works I've read extensively,

Frank Herbert,

Ursula Leguin

Larry Niven

Fritz Leiber

Roger Zelazny

Isaac Asimov

Frederick Pohl

Harlan Ellison

John Varley

Poul Anderson

Greg Bear

William Gibson

Orson Scott Card

Jack Williamson,

 

Lately I've been trying some newer authors, and I recently finished Unclean Spirits by M.L.N. Hanover.

I am currently reading Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell by Susanna Clarke.

 

 

So then....if you are able to USE your imagination, which obviously you ARE.....why does that not stretch into gaming for you?  I'm just curious.....

Because I can see where the non-reading population could easily feel like you do about RPGs and MMORPGs, but it's hard for me to understand why YOU feel the way you do about them.  I mean, the suspension of disbelief is really part of gaming in ANY game.  So is your complaint really just the fact that "the world doesn't change in any way that can be measured?"  Blizzard has at least TRIED to do some "changing" with it's phasing technology, but in MMOs that presents an entirely NEW problem, being that if you're not in the same place in quest progression, you don't see the world the same as the next person....

So, I'm not wanting to argue....just wanting to understand the seemingly recent trend to not reading quests or caring about lore, etc.

Because the story in MMORPG sucks balls compared to the list I just gave you.

If I want to read a good story, I'll read something from one of those authors.

Also, a game is supposed to be interactive.

A single player game IS interactive.

Play Fallout 3.

There is  a quest, to either disable the Nuke in a town, or fix it so it will blow up the town. There's a lot of back story and quest dialog.

I read it all.

Why? Because if you blow up the town with the Nuke, guess what? The town is actually blown up. You can't rest there again, can't buy weapons, can't get quests there, EVER!!!!!

Now that's something I really need to know, because it really matters.

Fix the nuke, don't fix the nuke, and what happens in an MMORPG? I get 100 xp and some boots of crapiness or 5 gold.

Why do I care about the story? NOTHING happens, except I get xp and gold or an item. If that's the case, tell me what the reward is, how many mobs to kill.

When you start making a dynamic world, where my actions matter, I'll start reading the story like I do in single player games.

I also read the dialog in KOTOR. It matters, because game changes depending on your actions.

Also Phasing is pointless. It doesn't change the game world, just gives the Illusion of change.

Real change means ALL players see the same thing.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by girlgeek

 

So then....if you are able to USE your imagination, which obviously you ARE.....why does that not stretch into gaming for you?  I'm just curious.....

Because I can see where the non-reading population could easily feel like you do about RPGs and MMORPGs, but it's hard for me to understand why YOU feel the way you do about them.  I mean, the suspension of disbelief is really part of gaming in ANY game.  So is your complaint really just the fact that "the world doesn't change in any way that can be measured?"  Blizzard has at least TRIED to do some "changing" with it's phasing technology, but in MMOs that presents an entirely NEW problem, being that if you're not in the same place in quest progression, you don't see the world the same as the next person....

So, I'm not wanting to argue....just wanting to understand the seemingly recent trend to not reading quests or caring about lore, etc.

 

Because the story in MMORPG sucks balls compared to the list I just gave you.

If I want to read a good story, I'll read something from one of those authors.

Also, a game is supposed to be interactive.

A single player game IS interactive.

Play Fallout 3.

There is  a quest, to either disable the Nuke in a town, or fix it so it will blow up the town. There's a lot of back story and quest dialog.

I read it all.

Why? Because if you blow up the town with the Nuke, guess what? The town is actually blown up. You can't rest there again, can't buy weapons, can't get quests there, EVER!!!!!

Now that's something I really need to know, because it really matters.

Fix the nuke, don't fix the nuke, and what happens in an MMORPG? I get 100 xp and some boots of crapiness or 5 gold.

Why do I care about the story? NOTHING happens, except I get xp and gold or an item. If that's the case, tell me what the reward is, how many mobs to kill.

When you start making a dynamic world, where my actions matter, I'll start reading the story like I do in single player games.

I also read the dialog in KOTOR. It matters, because game changes depending on your actions.

Also Phasing is pointless. It doesn't change the game world, just gives the Illusion of change.

Real change means ALL players see the same thing.

girlgeek, the problem with MMO lore is that it's completely pointless and/or meaningless and/or uninteresting. One of the main reasons for that is exactly what Imhotep said, that's it's basically a lie. You have to realize that MMO lore is completely different from reading. What you read in a book is only in your mind, created in your imagination (which you emphasize so much). A book is not an interactive medium, it's basically all about you. On the flip side, what you SEE in a videogame is represented in your imagination and has a very specific, definite form. You can change the appearance and sound of a character from a novel at whim. In contrast, if that very same "widow in the house" from the example has a voice-over in the game, it's very probable that you won't imagine her with another voice. You also won't be able to change her appearance, unless you close your eyes every time you go speak to her and imagine her anew. So, in games, the way you relate to the stories is not left entirely to your imagination, in fact, your imagination is subjected to whatever visual and narrative forms and rules the game establishes beforehand, which are quite a lot more specific than in books, even realist novels choking with detail. 

Also, it needs to be said that in current MMOs the design and gameplay are prioritized over any and all lore. Basically, you need to kill 10 rats because the game is geared around one type of avatar interaction which is combat. If the game was about building a house, then you'd need to look for 10 bricks or whatever. The stories and backgrounds for whichever activities the game puts you in are only secondary to the mechanics of such activities, making the stories revolve around clichés and uninteresting, entirely predictable developments. Since most gamers have played a lot of games in their lives, every other time we encounter these things we just know, at least intuitively, what quests are about: the gameplay mechanics. This makes the stories pointless, because not only are they filler for the design, they're also mostly filler in the worst sense, replacing what could be an engaging story. If you don't believe me, just look at most adventure games or many a single player game - stories develop interestingly and the game mechanics are either integral to their development or only secondary.

Therefore, the main problem with most MMO lore, as I see it, is that the stories don't tell you anything at all. They're just there to logically connect gameplay mechanics. 

It's not that they have to be written like hi-quality literature, it's just that companies need to be more careful about how they build up their games and what they decide to put on as focus (the marketing campaign for Dragon Age was geared almost entirely towards Bioware's prestige, but the implications of that prestige are in the realm of 'great RPG developers', 'great storytellers', and so on; the combat system and graphics and whatever were secondary to all that while the campaign lasted). Are they building up a world with a story to tell, or just a game with a bunch of nice little mechanics to keep your motor-functions entertained?

I care. I read nearly every quest and I enjoy learning about the gods and battles and ancient lands of the world im playing in. I also like when the lore is put into play. Like how in EQ we could go to the domains of the Gods.(like the Temple of Cazic-Thule)