Nobody is evil for evil's sake. All evil has a reason. These reasons are never an excuse. This guy went Jihadi because he chose to. He is an evil man, plain and simple. He has plenty of things that helped him along, but the responsibility is all his.

I only hope that this nightmare sweeps aside whatever political correctness garbage that is rotting the system and preventing people from seeing this stuff more clearly.

I have a question - firstly there are two sides to this matter, one side argues at looking at what caused this man to 'snap' and how to prevent it, the other side argues that this man was simply a jihadist and a murderer. They are more like conflicting ways of looking at things. Obviously both sides can agree that painting him as the victim is outrageous, every sane person knows who the real victims are.

So here is my question - Do people have a natural propensity for such sheer violence, can you actually prevent someone like this from 'snapping' short of locking them up in a looney bin? What's not to say that someone with a propensity for senseless violence may not simply 'snap' in a different situation?

Fisher talks a lot about evil (maybe too much :P), so I have an extra question for him, do you believe people are inherently evil, or are conditioned to perform evil?

Originally posted by Bigdavo

I have a question - firstly there are two sides to this matter, one side argues at looking at what caused this man to 'snap' and how to prevent it, the other side argues that this man was simply a jihadist and a murderer. They are more like conflicting ways of looking at things. Obviously both sides can agree that painting him as the victim is outrageous, every sane person knows who the real victims are.

So here is my question - Do people have a natural propensity for such sheer violence, can you actually prevent someone like this from 'snapping' short of locking them up in a looney bin? What's not to say that someone with a propensity for senseless violence may not simply 'snap' in a different situation?

Fisher talks a lot about evil (maybe too much :P), so I have an extra question for him, do you believe people are inherently evil, or are conditioned to perform evil?

I believe it depends on the individual. We all have evil inside us, but not all of us act upon it. Ultimately we choose what we do.

However there are factors that can make it easier for us to make either choice. No one simply "snaps" and no one simply "goes jihadi." I think certain propesities could be genetic, such as a lack of empathy or a lust for violence. These things can be nutured and cultivated with bad ideas and bad actions.

Empathy can be encouraged or discouraged, violence can be discouraged or channels into a better pursuit.

Evil is a process and it usually starts out with small breaks, then builds as it gets easier, until you are a full blown sociopath. It's different with everyone and fundamentally is a mysterious process.

I do believe however that I and all of us talk about it way TOO LITTLE. This feeds evil. We need to take stands in life and recognize that relativism is crap. That opens the door for greater and greater evil. If everything is relative, everything is permitted, and there is nothing but self-interest and "utility" stopping us from doing evil. History has shown I think that is not enough.

A terrible tragedy.

I'm gonna side with the Hindu's on the idea that there is no evil but rather just karma.

I think there a lot of sides to a story like this and you cannot just pin someone down as evil. What it takes to break a man like that is a lot. No one wakes up one day and decides to commit horrible actions. It's a complex array of past experiences and current. Feelings and emotions. I for one feel sorry for this man because it seems like he had a tough time coping with life, in general. Life is a distressing thing and society places many burdens on the individual that can cause us to snap. Especially being a muslim in America, which is exactly the most tolerant of places, can have a very large effect. Some people are better at coping than others. In the end you just gotta hope we can still find tolerance for other religions and peoples. I also don't want this to break into another "muslims are evil" cryfest and distasteful things in that nature because it's just not true.

The Rush to Therapy

www.nytimes.com/2009/11/10/opinion/10brooks.html

PC kills.

1. are you aware there are only two places (Iran for persians and Iraq for arabs) where large amounts of Shi'a (partisans) can live in peace... because the other sub-group of Islam, the sunni (one who follows the traditions) being a political offshoot (at +85% moslem demographic) as to what "elected" man would lead-control the future of that "religion;" throughout the world sunni hold in contempt Shi'a (in many cases considered not worthy to live unless they accept the sunni positions.)

2. Most of what the US is doing in the middle east is acting as volunteer mercenaries for wahabe sunni... to suppress/put-down radical Shi'a. This when most of the bad things moslems are blamed for can be traced directly back to sunni.

3. to the OP, the hasan family, i noticed in tv the major's brother kept referring to him as "a great american." I must have a different definition of great american because no way would murdering 12 unarmed fellow soldiers, reloading about four times (over 100 shots fired) and attempting to murder THIRTY more last Thursday... that would NOT be part of a description for "a great american."

4. husan (On official Army papers he stated “no religious preference”) was actively recruited into the US Army; there are presently small numbers of moslems in the US military, less than 4,000, about the same number as there are jews. The Army values them for their language and cultural skills.

5. 2008 128, increasing in 2009 to 117 suicides (15 deaths still under investigation), and over 300K military personnel reported depression or PTSD.
"Voluntary" military, but personnel, including reservist (that are mandated they are SUPPOSED to only protect the US at home!) are being FORCED to redeploy 4 and +6 times to the middle east.
So far Fort Hood, Texas has had 75 military suicides. And the nut case moslem Army psycharist is murdering and trying to murder the people he is 'supposed' to be helping!

The reason the media is trying to play it lightly is because people are known to backlash as certain groups after a tragedy like this happens. It's obvious that they are trying to not generalize all American muslims since they are a contributing part of our society. Hence, not trying to fan the flames. It's not PC, it's more damage control, since we do not wish to see more violence. Attacking others for what this man did, isn't going to solve any problems but instead create more.

Edit* After reading more I have a terrible sympathy for this man and his family. His family must be going through some tough times. My heart definitely goes out to them as well.

Originally posted by Sabiancym

I don't know what to think, but I do know one thing.

 

If this guy wouldn't have been Muslim, none of the articles would have said a thing about his religion.  Don't get me wrong, I'm all for attacking religion as I believe it drives people to do crazy shit like this, but I can't stand one religious group attacking another while failing to see the bad in their own religion.

This guy is on record saying that Americans are infidels that need to burn in holy fire.  I know the aregument that you are trying to make and it is valid.  But I don't care for people that don't realize that muslims, particuarly the radical ones that take a literal interpretation of the koran, hate everyone else.  And it's easy to get that way because of the amount of hate and death in the Koran.  I've been collecting some websites of Islam.  Can you find me any of the same for other religions?

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

http://www.jihadwatch.org/ of which "Muslims in New York celebrate the deaths of Americans in the Fort Hood jihad"

I know that there are bad people that happen to be part of religion, but only Islam puts out this much death on a regular basis.  So first be fair and recognize that fact before you try and lay them in the same sack as the rest of the religions. 

Are you joking? The Bible clearly shows the depictions of the Jews slaughtering people for "their" Holy Land. The Bible is a big promoter of violence.

Also, Hindu's believe that war is apart of the universe and one should according to his duty. So they are really nuetral on it. They don't promote it but they see it as necessary part of the world.

Other than that, most major religions are fairly peaceful, especially the Eastern ones.

There are many many Muslims who find peace in Islam. It's unfair to characterize the whole because of a few. Many horrible things have been done in the name of Christ, but you don't want to be generalized with them. Do you?

Originally posted by Sabiancym

Originally posted by Josher

Originally posted by Sabiancym

I don't know what to think, but I do know one thing.

 

If this guy wouldn't have been Muslim, none of the articles would have said a thing about his religion.  Don't get me wrong, I'm all for attacking religion as I believe it drives people to do crazy shit like this, but I can't stand one religious group attacking another while failing to see the bad in their own religion.

His religion wouldn't have been an issue if he didn't KILL FOR IT.  Muslims brought it on themselves.  They have this history you know=)   That history has been caused by THEM, not the press either.

 

 

 

 

Christians have a pretty deep history of killing also, you could argue they have killed just as much if not more in the name of their god than muslims, no one calls them out for that.  Well...no one in this country.

This century, in this country?   What have Christians, Catholics, or Jews done that could compare?  I'm curious.  You think the press would hold back?  Look at what happens every time a Priest gets caught, hehe.  You must not watch the news=)

Originally posted by Josher

Originally posted by Sabiancym

Originally posted by Josher

Originally posted by Sabiancym

I don't know what to think, but I do know one thing.

 

If this guy wouldn't have been Muslim, none of the articles would have said a thing about his religion.  Don't get me wrong, I'm all for attacking religion as I believe it drives people to do crazy shit like this, but I can't stand one religious group attacking another while failing to see the bad in their own religion.

His religion wouldn't have been an issue if he didn't KILL FOR IT.  Muslims brought it on themselves.  They have this history you know=)   That history has been caused by THEM, not the press either.

 

 

 

 

Christians have a pretty deep history of killing also, you could argue they have killed just as much if not more in the name of their god than muslims, no one calls them out for that.  Well...no one in this country.

This century, in this country?   What have Christians, Catholics, or Jews done that could compare?  I'm curious.  You think the press would hold back?  Look at what happens every time a Priest gets caught, hehe.  You must not watch the news=)

How about all the wonderful work the Westboro Baptist Church has been doing in the name of Christ? Picketing funerals of service members and such.

Obvious link: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism

The KKK are very much supporters of Christianity.

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/8306693.stm <---Christians in the Congo

Timothy McVaugh, of the Oklahoma City bombings, did so in the name of Christianity.

As you can see there are many, many instances.

The funny part is, all Christians denounce these people. The same goes on in the Islamic world. Many people see these radicals as just that: radicals. They see them as not representatives of their faith at all just like Christians don't recognize these people as representatives of their faith.

Originally posted by billie

1. are you aware there are only two places (Iran for persians and Iraq for arabs) where large amounts of Shi'a (partisans) can live in peace... because the other sub-group of Islam, the sunni (one who follows the traditions) being a political offshoot (at +85% moslem demographic) as to what "elected" man would lead-control the future of that "religion;" throughout the world sunni hold in contempt Shi'a (in many cases considered not worthy to live unless they accept the sunni positions.)

2. Most of what the US is doing in the middle east is acting as volunteer mercenaries for wahabe sunni... to suppress/put-down radical Shi'a. This when most of the bad things moslems are blamed for can be traced directly back to sunni.

3. to the OP, the hasan family, i noticed in tv the major's brother kept referring to him as "a great american." I must have a different definition of great american because no way would murdering 12 unarmed fellow soldiers, reloading about four times (over 100 shots fired) and attempting to murder THIRTY more last Thursday... that would NOT be part of a description for "a great american."

4. husan (On official Army papers he stated “no religious preference”) was actively recruited into the US Army; there are presently small numbers of moslims in the US military, less than 4,000, about the same number as there are jews. The Army values them for their language and cultural skills.

Wow, billie, 1 & 2 are great points, and something that too few people recognize. Always appreciate your insights, brother!

"A fellow Army doctor who studied with Hasan, Val Finell, told ABC News, "He would frequently say he was a Muslim first and an American second. And that came out in just about everything he did at the University."

Finell said he and other Army doctors complained to superiors about Hasan's statements.

"And we questioned how somebody could take an oath of office…be an officer in the military and swear allegiance to the constitution and to defend America against all enemies, foreign and domestic and have that type of conflict," Finell told ABC News. "
 

What type of conflict is this US army doctor talking about?  Does America come before your God or is he implying that muslims are an enemy of America?  Under these conditions it's pretty clear he was being harassed by his peers.

As someone pointed out above it's not an excuse, it's a reason.  Understanding why will hopefully prevent the incident from recurring.

Under stress, picked on and abused as a child?  Hell, we all went through one of those, if not all of them one time or another when we were growing up.

The man is a fucking terrorist, pure and simple.

Why would he give all his personal belongings away prior to killing all those innocent people?  Why?  Because he got tired of them?

Mr. Hasan told the neighbor, Patricia Villa, that he was leaving for Iraq or Afghanistan and would not be back for six months. Mr. Hasan brought over an air mattress, a steamer and men’s clothing for her husband, some still in dry cleaning bags marked “Hasan.” He offered her $60 to clean his apartment on Friday morning. The day before, he had brought over a copy of the Koran and bags of vegetables that he said he would not be able to eat.

“He said he was ready,” Ms. Villa said on Friday. “I said, ‘For real?’ He said, ‘I’m ready.’ I figured, he’s with God. He’s ready to go fight.”

A few hours later, Mr. Hasan was shot down by two civilian police officers and taken into custody by the authorities after a shooting rampage at Fort Hood that left 13 people dead and at least 28 others wounded. Mr. Hasan remains the only suspect in the case.

LINK

This is from the NY Times too

Originally posted by outfctrl

Under stress, picked on and abused as a child?  Hell, we all went through one of those, if not all of them one time or another when we were growing up.

The man is a fucking terrorist, pure and simple.

Why would he give all his personal belongings away prior to killing all those innocent people?  Why?  Because he got tired of them?

Mr. Hasan told the neighbor, Patricia Villa, that he was leaving for Iraq or Afghanistan and would not be back for six months. Mr. Hasan brought over an air mattress, a steamer and men’s clothing for her husband, some still in dry cleaning bags marked “Hasan.” He offered her $60 to clean his apartment on Friday morning. The day before, he had brought over a copy of the Koran and bags of vegetables that he said he would not be able to eat.

“He said he was ready,” Ms. Villa said on Friday. “I said, ‘For real?’ He said, ‘I’m ready.’ I figured, he’s with God. He’s ready to go fight.”

A few hours later, Mr. Hasan was shot down by two civilian police officers and taken into custody by the authorities after a shooting rampage at Fort Hood that left 13 people dead and at least 28 others wounded. Mr. Hasan remains the only suspect in the case.

LINK

This is from the NY Times too

Yup FBI knew about it for a few months and chose to do nothing.

Originally posted by xanphia

Originally posted by Josher

Originally posted by Sabiancym

Originally posted by Josher

Originally posted by Sabiancym

I don't know what to think, but I do know one thing.

 

If this guy wouldn't have been Muslim, none of the articles would have said a thing about his religion.  Don't get me wrong, I'm all for attacking religion as I believe it drives people to do crazy shit like this, but I can't stand one religious group attacking another while failing to see the bad in their own religion.

His religion wouldn't have been an issue if he didn't KILL FOR IT.  Muslims brought it on themselves.  They have this history you know=)   That history has been caused by THEM, not the press either.

 

 

 

 

Christians have a pretty deep history of killing also, you could argue they have killed just as much if not more in the name of their god than muslims, no one calls them out for that.  Well...no one in this country.

This century, in this country?   What have Christians, Catholics, or Jews done that could compare?  I'm curious.  You think the press would hold back?  Look at what happens every time a Priest gets caught, hehe.  You must not watch the news=)

 

How about all the wonderful work the Westboro Baptist Church has been doing in the name of Christ? Picketing funerals of service members and such.

Obvious link: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism

The KKK are very much supporters of Christianity.

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/8306693.stm <---Christians in the Congo

Timothy McVaugh, of the Oklahoma City bombings, did so in the name of Christianity.

As you can see there are many, many instances.

The funny part is, all Christians denounce these people. The same goes on in the Islamic world. Many people see these radicals as just that: radicals. They see them as not representatives of their faith at all just like Christians don't recognize these people as representatives of their faith.

Sorry, but the KKK gets BLASTED by the press and 99.9999% of US citizens view them as complete lunatics, so I don't see the argument how other religions get a pass.  But where are all the terrorist attacks from Christians and Jews or any other religeon besides Musilims on US soil?  Don't recall anything about Oklahoma city and Christianity being the cause of his madness.  Thought it was the war and hate of the govt more than killing non-believers.  I do remember some jabs at him going to church and the press trying to paint it in a certain direction, but its been a while.   Still so WHAT?  Isolated instances.  Muslims are blowing people up in the name of Alah all across the globe.  Or, is that OUR fault?

Originally posted by Wickersham

"A fellow Army doctor who studied with Hasan, Val Finell, told ABC News, "He would frequently say he was a Muslim first and an American second. And that came out in just about everything he did at the University."

Finell said he and other Army doctors complained to superiors about Hasan's statements.

"And we questioned how somebody could take an oath of office…be an officer in the military and swear allegiance to the constitution and to defend America against all enemies, foreign and domestic and have that type of conflict," Finell told ABC News. "
 

What type of conflict is this US army doctor talking about?  Does America come before your God or is he implying that muslims are an enemy of America?  Under these conditions it's pretty clear he was being harassed by his peers.

As someone pointed out above it's not an excuse, it's a reason.  Understanding why will hopefully prevent the incident from recurring.

Think you are stretching those quotes a bit. The second sentence you left un-highlighted is key in the first quote. Ever know someone who carry's on and on about their beliefs. So much so that you get to know everything they say they stand for? Then they do something contrary to those beliefs and it just doesn't jive with everything that they have told you. Wouldn't you ask why wouldn't he choose one or the other? He does have a choice after all. He probably did get harassed. I am wiling to bet he brought a fair share of it upon himself. Forgive me if I have no sympathy for someone in that instance.

So, if he was having such a inner conflict between his religion and the U.S. Why did he take an oath to serve the U.S. that seems to go against his beliefs. That's all those quotes are saying.  What's wrong with that? I've quite a few jobs because of similar conflicts.  Instead of making the choice to leave the service, which he could have. He killed and harmed a large number of people. This man is not a victim.

I'm not saying harassment is fine. So please don't suggest that I am either.

A senior government official tells ABC News that investigators have found that alleged Fort Hood shooter Nidal Malik Hasan had "more unexplained connections to people being tracked by the FBI" than just radical cleric Anwar al Awlaki. The official declined to name the individuals but Congressional sources said their names and countries of origin were likely to emerge soon.

abcnews.go.com/Blotter/official-nidal-hasan-unexplained-connections/story

Originally posted by 
<Mod Edit>

How do you propose that be done?  Other than invading on their rights to religion and privacy.

Originally posted by Sabiancym

Originally posted by 
<Mod Edit>

 

How do you propose that be done?  Other than invading on their rights to religion and privacy.

Yeah this is stupid. Unless its clear they are doing radical stuff, like making stupid comments in public no reason they should be watched more.They are fighting to defend this country and its constitution, it would be stupid to hinder one of the rights they fight for.