Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by Wraithone

You expected an "impartial" article when dealing with the hysterical reactions we've seen??  Come on now, from the type of reactions we've seen, one would think that they put full T12 gear and weapons up for sale, instead of a couple of useless vanity pets. 

Up to T12 gear for your strawman argument now?

How about you stick to the claims that we are actually making? - That this is the thin edge of the wedge. A small step towards game-affecting gear being sold eventually.

Even if it isn't - it's still a case of content that used to be added for free now being charged for in excess of the sub fee.

Right now - it's bad, and we are worried that it will get much worse. Is THAT clear?

CONTENT? Did you just call vanity pets CONTENT? Are you serious?

They threw in a free penguin for anyone who linked their account to Battle.net a few weeks ago. They gave everyone free content! YAY! It was like an entire patch!!!!! Almost as good as 3.3!

Wow. Perhaps you and everyone else who is, indeed, crying wolf should calm down and think about what you're talking about. Content... content has significance. Content is "stuff". Content is valuable additions to the game. Content is partly why WAR failed - it didn't have enough of it in the beginning, especially PvE. Content is not insignificant things such as vanity pets. If they added in a dungeon that you had to pay for, that's paying for content.

It used to be added for free. Hey, everyone, that means Blizzard will now charge for all vanity pets because they used to be added for free, implying that they will no longer be added... for free. You guys are right! After the pets, they'll certainly move towards EXP, buffs, armor, etc. It's the end of the friggin' world!

Originally posted by Malickie

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by Wraithone

You expected an "impartial" article when dealing with the hysterical reactions we've seen??  Come on now, from the type of reactions we've seen, one would think that they put full T12 gear and weapons up for sale, instead of a couple of useless vanity pets. 

Up to T12 gear for your strawman argument now?

How about you stick to the claims that we are actually making? - That this is the thin edge of the wedge. A small step towards game-affecting gear being sold eventually.

Even if it isn't - it's still a case of content that used to be added for free now being charged for in excess of the sub fee.

Right now - it's bad, and we are worried that it will get much worse. Is THAT clear?

But you are questioning blizzard, you can not do that.

No. I do it all the time. Don't get me on the subject of the endless nerfs to the death knight class, or I'm likely to go on for pages and pages all by myself

But, that having been said, WoW is a good game(in my opinion) all the way up to level cap. Then its mainly raiding and various forms of PvP. I seriously doubt that Blizzard is plotting to open a full Asian style cash shop, and sell raid gear for real money.

Originally posted by Wraithone

You expected an "impartial" article when dealing with the hysterical reactions we've seen??  Come on now, from the type of reactions we've seen, one would think that they put full T12 gear and weapons up for sale, instead of a couple of useless vanity pets.  No doubt, some of the hysterics will claim that such is "coming soon..."<rolls eyes>. For being ad driven(you do know that this operation costs money?...) I've found that MMORPG is a rather informative and entertaining site.  You must find something of interest here, as you have more than 900 posts to their forums...

Thats not really the point. Micro-transactions and monthly fees should not be in the same game. SOE started, Blizzard follows after and who knows where it will end?
 

Blizzard should have enough money to be able to add these pets in to all players.

The good news is that Arenanet is on the other side of the coin with no micro-transactions and no monthly fees. You still pay for the game and it's expansions but nothing else. If Blizzard plan to use micro-transactions in their next game too I don't see it compete with Guildwars 2.

But this isn't really just about Blizzard, because as we know are many companies copying them (like Blizzard started with copying SOEs EQ and now, ironicly, their micro transactions system). So chanses are that others will follow this.

To me it seems like the big companies are getting greedier, particulary SOE and Blizzard. That doesn't mean that you should quit the game you love but if no one at least protest against it, they can do whatever they like.

Originally posted by Loke666

Thats not really the point. Micro-transactions and monthly fees should not be in the same game. SOE started, Blizzard follows after and who knows where it will end?
 

Blizzard should have enough money to be able to add these pets in to all players.

The good news is that Arenanet is on the other side of the coin with no micro-transactions and no monthly fees. You still pay for the game and it's expansions but nothing else. If Blizzard plan to use micro-transactions in their next game too I don't see it compete with Guildwars 2.

But this isn't really just about Blizzard, because as we know are many companies copying them (like Blizzard started with copying SOEs EQ and now, ironicly, their micro transactions system). So chanses are that others will follow this.

To me it seems like the big companies are getting greedier, particulary SOE and Blizzard. That doesn't mean that you should quit the game you love but if no one at least protest against it, they can do whatever they like.

Exactly.

Originally posted by Wraithone

No. I do it all the time. Don't get me on the subject of the endless nerfs to the death knight class, or I'm likely to go on for pages and pages all by myself

But, that having been said, WoW is a good game(in my opinion) all the way up to level cap. Then its mainly raiding and various forms of PvP. I seriously doubt that Blizzard is plotting to open a full Asian style cash shop, and sell raid gear for real money.

Point taken, I think there may be a bit of confusion on why there are people who feel the need to be vocal about this issue.

My concern was about the industry as a whole moving in this direction. A few vanity pets are not something I feel warrant a 500+ reply thread. However the industry moving toward nickle and dimming us for everything is.

Why shouldn't micro's co-exist with monthly fees? Outside your own preferences that is. 

This is all just another version of   "I pay money, so I should make the rules" type whining. You get what you pay for. If you pay for a game that has micro's built in, you paid for that. Don't like it, then don't pay for it any more.

I'm not agreeing with this article, not even in vague fuzzy terms. Until folks recognize the difference between making a profit and sheer greed we'll get stuck with this lot and as consumers we sorta have it coming. Blizzard was by no means hurting prior to the MT pet store, so at this point it's just more money on the piles of money they already make.

Why is the staff of MMORPG so pumped about anything and everything MT? The whole, "you're freaking out relax or we'll marginalize you" tactic is a bit much as well. I've noticed a lot of game sites for various types of video games (MW2, L4D2 pick a boycott) all spouting this to degrees. I say, by all means those of you who are going to, go ahead and embrace the corporate culture so we can weed out the sites that are about gamers and for gamers and the ones who are about self-service and making money. And why are you so trusting of companies and the...oh, wait, I see what you did there. Quick, add more banners.

Keep chanting; "Wave of the future. Don't overreact! Silly gamers! Silly gamers! Silly!" Yeah, you know what's best for us, my bad.

    A cheap money grab , thinly veiled as "charitable". Is it good that make a wish is getting some money out of this? Absolutely! Lets not be stupid or coy though...the charity aspect WAS designed to soften the blow. Period. It was a simple tactic-"if we offer money to charity with this cash shop deal, then if people complain they seem like douches". As has been pointed out many times in this thread, blizz could have easily simply DONATED money to the charity quietly if their intentions were so pure.

    And you , Mr Wood. Keep chipping away at any remaining credibility this site has. The fallen earth review fiasco. The ridiculous score you guys gave aion. LOL-ad banners OVER THE FRIKKIN TOP of articles....now lets throw in some condescending articles by the editing manager.

    Quite honestly, your "article" should have been reported as a troll.

Originally posted by Loke666

Originally posted by Wraithone

You expected an "impartial" article when dealing with the hysterical reactions we've seen??  Come on now, from the type of reactions we've seen, one would think that they put full T12 gear and weapons up for sale, instead of a couple of useless vanity pets.  No doubt, some of the hysterics will claim that such is "coming soon..."<rolls eyes>. For being ad driven(you do know that this operation costs money?...) I've found that MMORPG is a rather informative and entertaining site.  You must find something of interest here, as you have more than 900 posts to their forums...

Thats not really the point. Micro-transactions and monthly fees should not be in the same game. SOE started, Blizzard follows after and who knows where it will end?
 

Blizzard should have enough money to be able to add these pets in to all players.

The good news is that Arenanet is on the other side of the coin with no micro-transactions and no monthly fees. You still pay for the game and it's expansions but nothing else. If Blizzard plan to use micro-transactions in their next game too I don't see it compete with Guildwars 2.

But this isn't really just about Blizzard, because as we know are many companies copying them (like Blizzard started with copying SOEs EQ and now, ironicly, their micro transactions system). So chanses are that others will follow this.

To me it seems like the big companies are getting greedier, particulary SOE and Blizzard. That doesn't mean that you should quit the game you love but if no one at least protest against it, they can do whatever they like.

Who says that monthly subs and micro transactions can't be part of the same game? Just so long as they aren't selling gear, I see no problem. No one is forcing anyone to take part. If you don't want the pets(or what ever) you need not purchase them.

I'm always amused by those who use Guild Wars as a counter example for WoW... Let alone GW2(due out next year perhaps...Or perhaps the year after, with NCsoft, one never knows).  I played GW's for all of 6 months or so before I grew bored of it. I've been in WoW since late beta, and while I take vacations from time to time, I always go back.

The idea that GW2 is some how going to be a threat to WoW is too funny for words. They appeal to different gaming demographics. Not to mention that GW attracts those who either can't or will not afford a monthly subscription.  You know, you must be the 7th or 8th person to use the word "greed", and I've yet to get a non subjective definition of it out of any of you.  It almost always translates to something like; "You have more than me" or "You have more than I believe you should".  Both appeals to emotion, rather than reason.

sign this site is getting really bad, it is really becoming filled with the dregs of the MMO society.

What he is saying is don't raise a stink over something as game breaking as "vanity pets" you could, I don't know, vote with your wallets and not buy the things, cancel your sub if you have one, and if you don't why do you freaking care?

What I can't wait for is when they announce that you can now buy teir gear for your level 80's and people on this site say "Finally Blizzard does something that makes sense."

Why don't you people just beat your heads against a wall until something useful comes out, or just do it till it looks like spaghetti in a broken bowl. Do the second one, deepen the gene pool a little.

    A "stop freaking out, micro transactions are fine" article from a managing editor at a site that sells advertising space superimposed OVER THE TOP of the content at their site......

lol

***sigh***

go on little lawnmower troll, go play in traffic, you, uhhh, you just don't get it, good luck paying bills when you grow up.

Originally posted by Morgaren

***sigh***

go on little lawnmower troll, go play in traffic, you, uhhh, you just don't get it, good luck paying bills when you grow up.

says the guy who thinks he is sephiroth....

Originally posted by Irishoak

I'm not agreeing with this article, not even in vague fuzzy terms. Until folks recognize the difference between making a profit and sheer greed we'll get stuck with this lot and as consumers we sorta have it coming. Blizzard was by no means hurting prior to the MT pet store, so at this point it's just more money on the piles of money they already make.

Why is the staff of MMORPG so pumped about anything and everything MT? The whole, "you're freaking out relax or we'll marginalize you" tactic is a bit much as well. I've noticed a lot of game sites for various types of video games (MW2, L4D2 pick a boycott) all spouting this to degrees. I say, by all means those of you who are going to, go ahead and embrace the corporate culture so we can weed out the sites that are about gamers and for gamers and the ones who are about self-service and making money. And why are you so trusting of companies and the...oh, wait, I see what you did there. Quick, add more banners.

Keep chanting; "Wave of the future. Don't overreact! Silly gamers! Silly gamers! Silly!" Yeah, you know what's best for us, my bad.

Ok, then YOU tell me(in non subjective terms) just what is this "greed"(sheer or other wise) you speak of?  Simply because Blizzard has made billions on WoW, does that some how translate to them not looking for methods to make more money? At what point does a *business* have "enough" profit and then "should" lose interest in more?

As for the second, given some of the hysterical "the sky is falling" posts, its no wonder some of us have taken to teasing about this.  Some of you need to check your tin foil hats for leaks, so that Blizzards orbital mind control lasers don't cause you to rush out and purchase those vanity pets...<grin>

I hate to bring this up... But one of the major motivational factors behind business in general(and games are a business) is to make a profit.  I now that comes as a horrible shock to some of you, but its the ugly, unavoidable truth.  Now the best businesses know that such is best done by supplying a market demand. Absent government intervention(aka the bail out for bankers, and GM etc...) any business that doesn't meet market demands eventually goes out of business.  Which is as it should be.

Originally posted by Wraithone

Originally posted by Irishoak

I'm not agreeing with this article, not even in vague fuzzy terms. Until folks recognize the difference between making a profit and sheer greed we'll get stuck with this lot and as consumers we sorta have it coming. Blizzard was by no means hurting prior to the MT pet store, so at this point it's just more money on the piles of money they already make.

Why is the staff of MMORPG so pumped about anything and everything MT? The whole, "you're freaking out relax or we'll marginalize you" tactic is a bit much as well. I've noticed a lot of game sites for various types of video games (MW2, L4D2 pick a boycott) all spouting this to degrees. I say, by all means those of you who are going to, go ahead and embrace the corporate culture so we can weed out the sites that are about gamers and for gamers and the ones who are about self-service and making money. And why are you so trusting of companies and the...oh, wait, I see what you did there. Quick, add more banners.

Keep chanting; "Wave of the future. Don't overreact! Silly gamers! Silly gamers! Silly!" Yeah, you know what's best for us, my bad.

 

Ok, then YOU tell me(in non subjective terms) just what is this "greed"(sheer or other wise) you speak of?  Simply because Blizzard has made billions on WoW, does that some how translate to them not looking for methods to make more money? At what point does a *business* have "enough" profit and then "should" lose interest in more?

As for the second, given some of the hysterical "the sky is falling" posts, its no wonder some of us have taken to teasing about this.  Some of you need to check your tin foil hats for leaks, so that Blizzards orbital mind control lasers don't cause you to rush out and purchase those vanity pets...<grin>

I hate to bring this up... But one of the major motivational factors behind business in general(and games are a business) is to make a profit.  I now that comes as a horrible shock to some of you, but its the ugly, unavoidable truth.  Now the best businesses know that such is best done by supplying a market demand.

   Honestly, its indicitive of the entire games market. I just bought dragon age. Single player game. They released paid dlc for it the day it launched. NOw....if the dlc was ready on launch day, what good reason is there to have not just include it in the game? Several companies are purposely holding back content at release to sell to you later. Is that not greed? Is giving me 3/4 of a game and doling the rest out to me at 7.99 a pop not greedy?

  I know, that is unrelated, ...or is it? At what point does protecting the companies bottom ;line cross into the realm of going too far? Imo, charging box sales, a sub fee, and mts crosses that line. They aren't "double dipping" as jon implies...most mmorpgs already double dip. Blizz is going to the next level. Triple dipping!

Originally posted by Wraithone 

Who says that monthly subs and micro transactions can't be part of the same game? Just so long as they aren't selling gear, I see no problem. No one is forcing anyone to take part. If you don't want the pets(or what ever) you need not purchase them.

And when a companies does start selling gear there will be people lining up to tell you that it isn't a problem and that you don't need to buy them.  See how flawed your viewpoint is.  You are saying the exact same thing that Loke is saying, but your tolerance is a little deeper.  Why is lokes opinion any different than yours? 

I think everyone in this thread has admitted to cash shops being bad in one way or another, but we all just do not agree on the same point of when they go beyond our personal tolerance of the items being sold.  To me that shows a clear majority of people do think they are bad, even if they have not crossed your personal beliefs yet. 

What I do not see people in this thread saying is how cash shops are good.  No one is showing how removing content from free patches and demanding payment for them in order to be accessed is good.  How this is a benefit for the entier playerbase.

I just cannot understand why people are lining up to defend cash shops as trivial when almost everyone has stated they can be a huge gamebreaking problem for them.  The logic is just so flawed that I cannot even begin to describe it.  

This isn't a good analogy by any means, but it gets the general point across.

Lets say a friend offers to drive you to a party as the designated driver.  When they pick you up, they have a 12 pack of beer for you and a 12 pack for them.  Would you wait for them to drink so many that they could not possibly drive before you start to question their actions or would you ask as soon as you get into the car? 

How would you feel if your other friends told you to shut up and that you were complaining about something that has not happened yet? 

Originally posted by Daffid011 t.  

 

This isn't a good analogy by any means, but it gets the general point across.

Lets say a friend offers to drive you to a party as the designated driver.  When they pick you up, they have a 12 pack of beer for you and a 12 pack for them.  Would you wait for them to drink so many that they could not possibly drive before you start to question their actions or would you ask as soon as you get into the car? 

How would you feel if your other friends told you to shut up and that you were complaining about something that has not happened yet? 

 

 

youre wrong. It is a very good analogy.

 I don't see anyone chastising Bioware over RMT.  Lets take a look at Dragon Age, i bought the CE and got some nice extra stuff, but guess what, there is more content but i have to pay for it, i don't get free access to wardens keep, i have to pay 15 more dollars for it, sounds like RMT to me.  Whats some of the arguements around here? "Oh well witholding content to charge for it later is bad bad bad, its RMT blah blah blah, but here we have Bioware introducing RMT into a Single Player Game.

Not only this but they plan on adding Additional content for 2 more years, you think any of that is gonna be free? Bioware = cash shop right there.  So where's the outrage? Where's the people saying they won't play a Bioware game ever again?

Originally posted by Scalebane

 I don't see anyone chastising Bioware over RMT.  Lets take a look at Dragon Age, i bought the CE and got some nice extra stuff, but guess what, there is more content but i have to pay for it, i don't get free access to wardens keep, i have to pay 15 more dollars for it, sounds like RMT to me.  Whats some of the arguements around here? "Oh well witholding content to charge for it later is bad bad bad, its RMT blah blah blah, but here we have Bioware introducing RMT into a Single Player Game.

Not only this but they plan on adding Additional content for 2 more years, you think any of that is gonna be free? Bioware = cash shop right there.  So where's the outrage? Where's the people saying they won't play a Bioware game ever again?

umm...4 posts up.

Originally posted by Scalebane

 I don't see anyone chastising Bioware over RMT.  Lets take a look at Dragon Age, i bought the CE and got some nice extra stuff, but guess what, there is more content but i have to pay for it, i don't get free access to wardens keep, i have to pay 15 more dollars for it, sounds like RMT to me.  Whats some of the arguements around here? "Oh well witholding content to charge for it later is bad bad bad, its RMT blah blah blah, but here we have Bioware introducing RMT into a Single Player Game.

Not only this but they plan on adding Additional content for 2 more years, you think any of that is gonna be free? Bioware = cash shop right there.  So where's the outrage? Where's the people saying they won't play a Bioware game ever again?

I just want to ask "Is the story in the game complete without the extra content?" and "Does the extra content just allow you to continue playing the game after the main story, or offer side quest to be done at any point?" if so it's ok. It's what some of us like to call expansions, you pay for the content cause you realize its not free for them to design it, and by buying you let the company know that you enjoyed the product and want to see more like it.

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Up to T12 gear for your strawman argument now?

How about you stick to the claims that we are actually making? - That this is the thin edge of the wedge. A small step towards game-affecting gear being sold eventually.

Even if it isn't - it's still a case of content that used to be added for free now being charged for in excess of the sub fee.

Right now - it's bad, and we are worried that it will get much worse. Is THAT clear?

Blizzard has always had vanity pets 'for sale' with real currency.  DirectTV Blizzcon stream, collector's editions and The Trading Card Game.  Every one of those involved a real money transaction to get a rare or exclusive vanity pet.

Originally posted by Newt

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Up to T12 gear for your strawman argument now?

How about you stick to the claims that we are actually making? - That this is the thin edge of the wedge. A small step towards game-affecting gear being sold eventually.

Even if it isn't - it's still a case of content that used to be added for free now being charged for in excess of the sub fee.

Right now - it's bad, and we are worried that it will get much worse. Is THAT clear?

Find new stuff to worry about, go make a kid and be a good parent or something.

The point is this, Blizzard knows that the path to making money in this genre is player retention, by offering RMT  gear, they cut the time people play the game down severly, if you can just buy your items, then what? You obviously didn't enjoy raiding, cause you would have rather bought your gear, and everyone who PvP's will have just the same stuff, so there is no incentive to do that either. only thing to do is show it off in a city how long you think someone will pay for that?

I hear your worries, the whole slippery slope thing, but seriously, do you think after years of being on top do you think Blizzard is going to make a move that only the bottom games imploy?

Quit spending so much time doubting and try to grow a brain everytime you post its always about an issue not too far from your nose, when if you would uncross your eyes and look down the road aways, you could actually see potholes before you fall into them.

Originally posted by Randomoniam

It is a microtransaction. This is a single zebra for sale at an orange stand to use your metaphor. Your article aims to remove the tag because it's not 'required' in game. Well guess what, every part of a game is not required either.  Blizzard has been slowly introducing more micro-transactions into it's game, and I'm happy to see it's customers telling them what they think of it.

Your ranting is completely illogical.....no part of a game is required? Then what would you be playing? The game wouldnt exsist in the first place if not one part of it was required.

Originally posted by Morgaren

Originally posted by Newt

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Up to T12 gear for your strawman argument now?

How about you stick to the claims that we are actually making? - That this is the thin edge of the wedge. A small step towards game-affecting gear being sold eventually.

Even if it isn't - it's still a case of content that used to be added for free now being charged for in excess of the sub fee.

Right now - it's bad, and we are worried that it will get much worse. Is THAT clear?

 

Find new stuff to worry about, go make a kid and be a good parent or something.

The point is this, Blizzard knows that the path to making money in this genre is player retention, by offering RMT  gear, they cut the time people play the game down severly, if you can just buy your items, then what? You obviously didn't enjoy raiding, cause you would have rather bought your gear, and everyone who PvP's will have just the same stuff, so there is no incentive to do that either. only thing to do is show it off in a city how long you think someone will pay for that?

I hear your worries, the whole slippery slope thing, but seriously, do you think after years of being on top do you think Blizzard is going to make a move that only the bottom games imploy?

Quit spending so much time doubting and try to grow a brain everytime you post its always about an issue not too far from your nose, when if you would uncross your eyes and look down the road aways, you could actually see potholes before you fall into them.

thats at least 3 posts in this thread where you are name calling ,ranting, and/or flaming. Yet you seem to have no issue telling others what/how they should post. Odd.

I am surprised by the news to say the least.

However I do understand and agree with many points the OP has made.

I think the problem with the reaction is multi-fold here.

Most mmorpg fans, do not like microtransactions. Some because they are not used to them and some others simply opposing them out of principle.

The truth is that no matter how it is done, fundamentally, in my view as well, microstransactions are a form of RMT, a milder form of RMT perpetrated by the Game's Developer themselves.

So it feels, hypocritical, when Blizzard does not condone RMT from third parties, then turn around and does it themselves.

It would be like a Churche preached not to give donations to different denomination Churches, but then every sunday goes around with the basket asking for donations themselves. It is Hypocritical and obvious.

Now if you say, that "this is a business", and like any other, its goal is to make more money independently of it being Hypocritical, and actually this is what the OP is saying, then one may just accept this, but loyal fans would not easily accept it, because, in reality everyone knows that this is a business, yet no everyone wants to be associated with a bad behavior such as Hypocrisy.

On the other hand it could be argued, why would a successful enterprise such as Blizzard, which makes roughly 164 Millions of Dollar per month, in gross income, (that is more than a Billion per year), would need to make something like this?

The answer is not Bill and expenses, these are payed in this case long before a year ends. The answer is simply that Blizzard is an Enterprise in a Capitalist system and it has to be more profitable every year compared to the previous one, in order to fulfill its mandate towards its shareholders.

It is as simple as that really. As in reality it does not "need" to make more profit when it already makes much profit, but it needs as a company to be able to show growth...even if it made a good number of hundreds of millions of profit every year, if that profit was the same every year, it would not be good as the company would show no growth. That is how many western economies work, it is all a matter of perceived value, blame it on the system if you must, yet that would be a discussion in and of itself.

That being said some of you may ask, but why did they have to go with microtransactions? The answer is, because they can;t any longer show growth with new subscriptions, truth is WoW is a "old" game now, it is nothing new and it does not attract that many new players which could have an impact on its growth numbers, because there is other games out there too, and the influx of players (if any) is balanced by those that quit WoW for another game.

My only concern is that eventually, this store may have other items in it, that are not just cosmetic, unless Blizzard comes up with yet another way to raise its profitability numbers.

All in all, this is but an indication that WoW had run its course. Business aside, I am really interested to see how many people playing WoW are actually driven by Vanity...I think the results may surprise some.