The Grind.

The problem with every themepark MMO (linear, level based game) is the grind. Grinding is necessary for these types of games because they lack any form of dynamic content for players, meaning, the game world is static and will not change until the next content patch or expansion. Therefore, the grind is needed to create a buffer so that the developers have time to create the new content.

Lets explore the types of grinding themepark MMOs present to players.

1. Leveling - The most obvious form of grinding. A good indication of how poorly endgame is developed is to look at the leveling curve. Aion is a perfect example of this, it had virtually no endgame on release so they were forced to increase the time it takes to level substantially so that developers have time to create content while the players grind away, Champions Online shared a similar fate.

2. Gear - The second form of grinding is the gear grind. Not quite as disheartening as a steep leveling grind, but still an indication of poor game design. Once players reach max level in a game that has endgame content, the gear grind replaces the leveling grind. The most popular MMO in the world uses this for of grinding expansively. World of Warcraft has a gated gear grind for its endgame, meaning you can only gain a certain amount of gear levels per week (if you're lucky in PvE, or skilled enough in PvP). This grind serves the same purpose as the leveling grind, which again, creates a buffer for developers to make new content.

3. Reputation/Achievements - This form of grinding covers a wide range of players from the really casual to the extreme hardcore players. Though achievements can be considered arbitrary by most players, they are in fact a form of grinding to the players that they matter to. Same goes for reputations, titles have meaning for some , or mean absolutely nothing to others. Whatever the case, the fact remains that achievements and reputations serve as the same time sinks as the other two forms of grinding.

Now that you have some insight of where I'm coming from, I want to discuss the problem with themepark MMOs, which is poor game design. MMORPGs have been designed on the principles of progression, persistence, and community, principles which have been taken away or perverted in a majority of newer games we have been seeing in recent years. Where is the persistence in games these days? Certainly not in the instanced dungeon and PvP systems. Where is the community? The community is fractured into the instancing systems. Where is the progression? The vicious cycle of endless grinding; grinding to completion, and then grinding more because the newly released content made you incomplete again.

The MMO genre is in dire need of innovation, the recycling of old ideas has created a stale market. I don't want to play a superhero game with the same gameplay mechanics of traditional MMOs, I want to play a superhero MMO that has the open ended gameplay of Grand Theft Auto. I don't want to play a game where I level up to grind for gear so I can have an edge in pointless battles versus other factions, I want to play a game where city building, territory control and competition for resources is the endgame.

The cycle of level, get gear, pointless battles, level, get gear, pointless battles, level.... This type of gameplay needs to go extinct.

Does anyone else feel the same way about these types of MMOs? I really can't stand playing them anymore. I've gone back to playing single player games, I bought Borderlands and and Torchlight last week and have been having a blast, maybe someone like me is just stuck until an indie developer comes up with new ideas on MMO gameplay mechanics.
 

Yes MMOs suck

I too play SP games mostly beside Eve and that only due to Eves non-grindy leveling.

Originally posted by TheRegulator

The Grind.

The problem with every themepark MMO (linear, level based game) is the grind. Grinding is necessary for these types of games because they lack any form of dynamic content for players, meaning, the game world is static and will not change until the next content patch or expansion. Therefore, the grind is needed to create a buffer so that the developers have time to create the new content.

Lets explore the types of grinding themepark MMOs present to players.

1. Leveling - The most obvious form of grinding. A good indication of how poorly endgame is developed is to look at the leveling curve. Aion is a perfect example of this, it had virtually no endgame on release so they were forced to increase the time it takes to level substantially so that developers have time to create content while the players grind away, Champions Online shared a similar fate.

2. Gear - The second form of grinding is the gear grind. Not quite as disheartening as a steep leveling grind, but still an indication of poor game design. Once players reach max level in a game that has endgame content, the gear grind replaces the leveling grind. The most popular MMO in the world uses this for of grinding expansively. World of Warcraft has a gated gear grind for its endgame, meaning you can only gain a certain amount of gear levels per week (if you're lucky in PvE, or skilled enough in PvP). This grind serves the same purpose as the leveling grind, which again, creates a buffer for developers to make new content.

3. Reputation/Achievements - This form of grinding covers a wide range of players from the really casual to the extreme hardcore players. Though achievements can be considered arbitrary by most players, they are in fact a form of grinding to the players that they matter to. Same goes for reputations, titles have meaning for some , or mean absolutely nothing to others. Whatever the case, the fact remains that achievements and reputations serve as the same time sinks as the other two forms of grinding.

---

Now that you have some insight of where I'm coming from, I want to discuss the problem with themepark MMOs, which is poor game design. MMORPGs have been designed on the principles of progression, persistence, and community, principles which have been taken away or perverted in a majority of newer games we have been seeing in recent years. Where is the persistence in games these days? Certainly not in the instanced dungeon and PvP systems. Where is the community? The community is fractured into the instancing systems. Where is the progression? The vicious cycle of endless grinding; grinding to completion, and then grinding more because the newly released content made you incomplete again.

The MMO genre is in dire need of innovation, the recycling of old ideas has created a stale market. I don't want to play a superhero game with the same gameplay mechanics of traditional MMOs, I want to play a superhero MMO that has the open ended gameplay of Grand Theft Auto. I don't want to play a game where I level up to grind for gear so I can have an edge in pointless battles versus other factions, I want to play a game where city building, territory control and competition for resources is the endgame.

The cycle of level, get gear, pointless battles, level, get gear, pointless battles, level.... This type of gameplay needs to go extinct.

Does anyone else feel the same way about these types of MMOs? I really can't stand playing them anymore. I've gone back to playing single player games, I bought Borderlands and and Torchlight last week and have been having a blast, maybe someone like me is just stuck until an indie developer comes up with new ideas on MMO gameplay mechanics.
 

You fail to see the diffrence in grinding between a f2p game, where you can finish every single quest and still have 70% of a level to go before you get a few more quests...and wow type themeparks which drown you in quests. 

The problem isnt the leveling part of the game usually, its the player, obsessed with getting to the endgame as fast as humanly possible, willing to miss anything of entertainment value in the process. 

If people would take a deep breath, relax about getting to the end, and enjoy the content, it would be a tedious grind.

Nobody is forcing you to gobble up 6 months worth of content in 2 weeks.

WoW made the endgame the focus of mmorpgs, and so the players only care about the endgame. 

I agree with most your points, the grinding in a lot of games sucks, and it get old having the sole reason i play a game, is so i can participate in the fun part in a few months (being end game).

Right now im playing Fallen Earth, you might want to check that out.  Complete oposite of the usual themepark trend.  Quite literally the anti-aion for any of you who were dissapointed in that game, or are burned out on uber pvp zergfest themeparks.

shouldn't you say like EQ clone or something before that maybe, i mean WoW didn't create this stuff, so why say WoW clone, seriously.

Wow didn't create it, true (that distinction probablly belongs to EQ), but they did perfect the system to the point where it's psychologically addictive. At least until burnout hits.

Sounds like you're in the same boat I am.  I'm just bored to tears with mmorpgs.  I keep doing trials and going back to past games I did enjoy for a while only to find them boring beyond imagining.  It has nothing to do with mmorpgs whether they be themepark or sandbox.  I've just played them fairly steadily for a decade. 

As for mmorpgs being a grind, you're applying the term "grind" incorrectly.  Grinding in mmorpgs is quite simply having to kill the same mobs over and over as a primary way to lvl or gain xp because there's no other feasible way to do so.  Themepark games, WoW in particular, have less grind than most due to their many quests.  Rep grinding is definately a grind though.  Old school mmorpgs were nothing but grind. We just didn't know it back then because it was just the way it was.  If you wanted to lvl or gain a certain piece of equipment, you killed orcs, olthoi, or whatever till you got it.

In retrospect, I think mmorpgs have only gotten better in the last few years.  I don't buy the party line that the industry is falling apart.  I recognize my boredom doesn't stem from any lacking in the games available.  It's not them, it's me.  8D

Originally posted by TheRegulator

The Grind.

The problem with every themepark MMO (linear, level based game) is the grind. Grinding is necessary for these types of games because they lack any form of dynamic content for players, meaning, the game world is static and will not change until the next content patch or expansion. Therefore, the grind is needed to create a buffer so that the developers have time to create the new content.

Lets explore the types of grinding themepark MMOs present to players.

All MMORPGs have a Grind in some way. Others are better at hiding it. You always need something to do

1. Leveling - The most obvious form of grinding. A good indication of how poorly endgame is developed is to look at the leveling curve. Aion is a perfect example of this, it had virtually no endgame on release so they were forced to increase the time it takes to level substantially so that developers have time to create content while the players grind away, Champions Online shared a similar fate.

I Find Lvling to be Fun. This the basics of Every RPG (Video Game). Its something that is required in the genre to sperate it from being a Single/Mutiplayer Adventure Game

2. Gear - The second form of grinding is the gear grind. Not quite as disheartening as a steep leveling grind, but still an indication of poor game design. Once players reach max level in a game that has endgame content, the gear grind replaces the leveling grind. The most popular MMO in the world uses this for of grinding expansively. World of Warcraft has a gated gear grind for its endgame, meaning you can only gain a certain amount of gear levels per week (if you're lucky in PvE, or skilled enough in PvP). This grind serves the same purpose as the leveling grind, which again, creates a buffer for developers to make new content.

Gear rocks. Look at the Cool Lore and Looks from WoW's Gear. Gear grind, makes my in-game Avatar, that much more special. Again, this adds even more Role Play value and immersion to the game.

3. Reputation/Achievements - This form of grinding covers a wide range of players from the really casual to the extreme hardcore players. Though achievements can be considered arbitrary by most players, they are in fact a form of grinding to the players that they matter to. Same goes for reputations, titles have meaning for some , or mean absolutely nothing to others. Whatever the case, the fact remains that achievements and reputations serve as the same time sinks as the other two forms of grinding.

This is something else that adds life to the Role playing value. Our character's connection to the NPC characters.

---

Now that you have some insight of where I'm coming from, I want to discuss the problem with themepark MMOs, which is poor game design. MMORPGs have been designed on the principles of progression, persistence, and community, principles which have been taken away or perverted in a majority of newer games we have been seeing in recent years. Where is the persistence in games these days? Certainly not in the instanced dungeon and PvP systems. Where is the community? The community is fractured into the instancing systems. Where is the progression? The vicious cycle of endless grinding; grinding to completion, and then grinding more because the newly released content made you incomplete again.

Persistances? I understand you old schoolers have a hard time understanding this, but MMORPGs have grown, in Avg Population, over the years. Having Open Dungions, just wont work in a system like this, when your population is growing by the millions. With things like Player taging, and high populations, you may never get a chance to fight a decent scripted Boss Raid fight. In most cases, you would Lag out. Who wants that?

The MMO genre is in dire need of innovation, the recycling of old ideas has created a stale market. I don't want to play a superhero game with the same gameplay mechanics of traditional MMOs, I want to play a superhero MMO that has the open ended gameplay of Grand Theft Auto. I don't want to play a game where I level up to grind for gear so I can have an edge in pointless battles versus other factions, I want to play a game where city building, territory control and competition for resources is the endgame.

What The? There are MMORPG game out there like this, were you can cap points, and build cities. Play them for crying out loud! Why aren't you playing those game? Explain!!!

The cycle of level, get gear, pointless battles, level, get gear, pointless battles, level.... This type of gameplay needs to go extinct.

Ok you said "Pointless Battles" twice. Explain again to me, what definds a "Pointless Battle"! Because in most TP-MMORPGs, both the PvP and the PvE battles have Lore and Meaning!

Does anyone else feel the same way about these types of MMOs? I really can't stand playing them anymore. I've gone back to playing single player games, I bought Borderlands and and Torchlight last week and have been having a blast, maybe someone like me is just stuck until an indie developer comes up with new ideas on MMO gameplay mechanics.

Explain to me,,, SInce you talk much crap about TP-MMORPGs then why dont you play Sandbox MMORPGs? Hua? Explain? Is it the fact that you enve the population numbers in Non-Niched MMORPGs? What? Cause many of the same old Epic Sandbox MMORPGs are still out there and playable. Also New SandBox MMORPGs come out all the time, just like TP. Go play Eve for example. Or is it something your hiding about Sandbox or better yet MMORPGs in general
 

Originally posted by otter3370

Sounds like you're in the same boat I am.  I'm just bored to tears with mmorpgs.  I keep doing trials and going back to past games I did enjoy for a while only to find them boring beyond imagining.  It has nothing to do with mmorpgs whether they be themepark or sandbox.  I've just played them fairly steadily for a decade. 

As for mmorpgs being a grind, you're applying the term "grind" incorrectly.  Grinding in mmorpgs is quite simply having to kill the same mobs over and over as a primary way to lvl or gain xp because there's no other feasible way to do so.  Themepark games, WoW in particular, have less grind than most due to their many quests.  Rep grinding is definately a grind though.  Old school mmorpgs were nothing but grind. We just didn't know it back then because it was just the way it was.  If you wanted to lvl or gain a certain piece of equipment, you killed orcs, olthoi, or whatever till you got it.

In retrospect, I think mmorpgs have only gotten better in the last few years.  I don't buy the party line that the industry is falling apart.  I recognize my boredom doesn't stem from any lacking in the games available.  It's not them, it's me.  8D

"grind" is subjective.

A game with a massive amount of quests is called a "Quest stacker" and to a person like me thats worse than "Hunting" which is what you consider a grind of xp through killing packs of mobs.

It's different for everyone.

I was talking to my brother earlier today and we decided one of the reasons (among many) we enjoyed SWG so much was that if we got tired of the grind, there was always something else to fall back on. If I just didn't want to go out and kill creatures to increase my scout and trapping skills, I could always go to the cantina in Theed and just chill. I could watch/listen to the entertainers while chatting with other players. I could do some shopping on the bazaar. I could go fishing. I could decorate my house. I could discuss politics or city planning or guild dynamics with my player-run city mayor.

There was always something else to do that didn't feel like a grind and wasn't as purpose driven as some of those other activities are in other games.

so don't play them if you dont like them, no need to write a thread thats been written 500 million times

Originally posted by otter3370

Sounds like you're in the same boat I am.  I'm just bored to tears with mmorpgs.  I keep doing trials and going back to past games I did enjoy for a while only to find them boring beyond imagining.  It has nothing to do with mmorpgs whether they be themepark or sandbox.  I've just played them fairly steadily for a decade. 

As for mmorpgs being a grind, you're applying the term "grind" incorrectly.  Grinding in mmorpgs is quite simply having to kill the same mobs over and over as a primary way to lvl or gain xp because there's no other feasible way to do so.  Themepark games, WoW in particular, have less grind than most due to their many quests.  Rep grinding is definately a grind though.  Old school mmorpgs were nothing but grind. We just didn't know it back then because it was just the way it was.  If you wanted to lvl or gain a certain piece of equipment, you killed orcs, olthoi, or whatever till you got it.

In retrospect, I think mmorpgs have only gotten better in the last few years.  I don't buy the party line that the industry is falling apart.  I recognize my boredom doesn't stem from any lacking in the games available.  It's not them, it's me.  8D

The problem is, most of the quests are virtually identical, which makes them very grindy.  They're usually variations on a theme.  Go here, get this, kill that, come back.  Lather, rinse, repeat.  It wouldn't be so bad if there was a wide variation of things to do, but it's all pretty much the same thing, over and over and over.

I mean heck, look at the mission system on Anarchy Online.  There are a very small number of mission types, you face the same boring corridors over and over, kill the same stupid mobs over and over, there's nothing new, nothing interesting and you have to do it, typically, more than 300 times!

That's a grind.

Originally posted by tro44_1

Ok you said "Pointless Battles" twice. Explain again to me, what definds a "Pointless Battle"! Because in most TP-MMORPGs, both the PvP and the PvE battles have Lore and Meaning!

Lore is meaningless unless a player or a group of players have an affect on it.

Can a player in WoW or anyother themepark game change the lore? In WoW it's already written ahead of time.

In game it means nothing.

Now in a game like Ryzom where you can actually run an event that changes lore forever on a specific server it does. WoW doesn't offer this.

Originally posted by decade85

I was talking to my brother earlier today and we decided one of the reasons (among many) we enjoyed SWG so much was that if we got tired of the grind, there was always something else to fall back on. If I just didn't want to go out and kill creatures to increase my scout and trapping skills, I could always go to the cantina in Theed and just chill. I could watch/listen to the entertainers while chatting with other players. I could do some shopping on the bazaar. I could go fishing. I could decorate my house. I could discuss politics or city planning or guild dynamics with my player-run city mayor.

There was always something else to do that didn't feel like a grind and wasn't as purpose driven as some of those other activities are in other games.

But those things you can do in many TP-MMORPGs.

Most MMORPGs I have played allow you to chat with other players. So thats nothing new. Fishing? Thats a Grind to in a way.

Shopping? That stuff has to get to the shop/AH some how right? Again Grind is there.

Decorate House? The items in the house has to be Made some way. Gringing Mats. Once again a Grind.

Guild management? I seen this in many TP MMORPGs. Not new.

Most of these things can be found in both TP and SB mmorpgs

I wonder why people keep pointing towards singleplayer games and say thats how you should do it.

While those games are fun, in a week or less you'll be done with them. An MMORPG is supposed to last you for months, you can't honnestly expect as much quality content of 20 or 40 hour singleplayer which lasts for months like an MMORPG does.

When you consider the rides to be a grind (thinking of a literal themepark), there is really something wrong...

Originally posted by tro44_1

Originally posted by decade85

I was talking to my brother earlier today and we decided one of the reasons (among many) we enjoyed SWG so much was that if we got tired of the grind, there was always something else to fall back on. If I just didn't want to go out and kill creatures to increase my scout and trapping skills, I could always go to the cantina in Theed and just chill. I could watch/listen to the entertainers while chatting with other players. I could do some shopping on the bazaar. I could go fishing. I could decorate my house. I could discuss politics or city planning or guild dynamics with my player-run city mayor.

There was always something else to do that didn't feel like a grind and wasn't as purpose driven as some of those other activities are in other games.

 

But those things you can do in many TP-MMORPGs.

Most MMORPGs I have played allow you to chat with other players. So thats nothing new. Fishing? Thats a Grind to in a way.

Shopping? That stuff has to get to the shop/AH some how right? Again Grind is there.

Decorate House? The items in the house has to be Made some way. Gringing Mats. Once again a Grind.

Guild management? I seen this in many TP MMORPGs. Not new.

 

Most of these things can be found in both TP and SB mmorpgs

Variety is the spice of life, and it's how you keep people playing MMOs too.

Look at Runescape. Most things are a "grind" there, but there's so many skills plus mini-games and elaborate quests that are completely different than, say, WoW's, that you always have something to do. From what you said, it seems like you think that anything you have to do for more than 5 minutes is a grind. That's not true. "Grind" only starts when you stop having fun. In which case you need to switch and do something else. Or, hey, log off the damn game and take a break.

Originally posted by Gameloading

I wonder why people keep pointing towards singleplayer games and say thats how you should do it.

While those games are fun, in a week or less you'll be done with them. An MMORPG is supposed to last you for months, you can't honnestly expect as much quality content of 20 or 40 hour singleplayer which lasts for months like an MMORPG does.

In my opinion i don't even enjoy them that much, i mean yeh there fun but when you can complete a game in like a week there's no immersiveness or attachment plus even with single player games people are grinding achievements or anything they possibly can so no it isnt just mmo's. Also Wouldn't halo be considered the biggest grind ever? i mean everyone just plays the same damn maps killing the same people over and over and over again.

Originally posted by Gabby-air

Originally posted by Gameloading

I wonder why people keep pointing towards singleplayer games and say thats how you should do it.

While those games are fun, in a week or less you'll be done with them. An MMORPG is supposed to last you for months, you can't honnestly expect as much quality content of 20 or 40 hour singleplayer which lasts for months like an MMORPG does.

 

In my opinion i don't even enjoy them that much, i mean yeh there fun but when you can complete a game in like a week there's no immersiveness or attachment plus even with single player games people are grinding achievements or anything they possibly can so no it isnt just mmo's. Also Wouldn't halo be considered the biggest grind ever? i mean everyone just plays the same damn maps killing the same people over and over and over again.

Different games offer different levels of replay value.

A game like CoD4 can have you playing for years. I've logged in over 600 hours in Oblivion and atleast half that in GTAIV.

Not all single player games can be finished that quickly.

Originally posted by Comnitus

Originally posted by tro44_1

Originally posted by decade85

I was talking to my brother earlier today and we decided one of the reasons (among many) we enjoyed SWG so much was that if we got tired of the grind, there was always something else to fall back on. If I just didn't want to go out and kill creatures to increase my scout and trapping skills, I could always go to the cantina in Theed and just chill. I could watch/listen to the entertainers while chatting with other players. I could do some shopping on the bazaar. I could go fishing. I could decorate my house. I could discuss politics or city planning or guild dynamics with my player-run city mayor.

There was always something else to do that didn't feel like a grind and wasn't as purpose driven as some of those other activities are in other games.

 

But those things you can do in many TP-MMORPGs.

Most MMORPGs I have played allow you to chat with other players. So thats nothing new. Fishing? Thats a Grind to in a way.

Shopping? That stuff has to get to the shop/AH some how right? Again Grind is there.

Decorate House? The items in the house has to be Made some way. Gringing Mats. Once again a Grind.

Guild management? I seen this in many TP MMORPGs. Not new.

 

Most of these things can be found in both TP and SB mmorpgs

Variety is the spice of life, and it's how you keep people playing MMOs too.

Look at Runescape. Most things are a "grind" there, but there's so many skills plus mini-games and elaborate quests that are completely different than, say, WoW's, that you always have something to do. From what you said, it seems like you think that anything you have to do for more than 5 minutes is a grind. That's not true. "Grind" only starts when you stop having fun. In which case you need to switch and do something else. Or, hey, log off the damn game and take a break.

Thats not true at all. A Grind is repeating a task over and over again. All MMORPGs have Grinds. Good Grinds and Bad Grinds. In your case, the OP is making it seem as if WoW (And other TP)has no Good Grinds. Which is not true.

These same people even like to say things like "Guild Wars doesnt have a grind"

But what do you call the mindless Faction title collecting? Skill Collecting?

grind  = Hecklers  make pebbles

The thing is though, people like grinding. As long as it provides a measurable sense of improvement.

Grind goes bad when you need to do so much of it, it just causes despair.

Take Lotro for example. I don't have any quests I can do, so grinding is my only option to level up so I can get to Moria (and get more quests).  (See my sig for my character, haven't done a quest since August, but just leveled up a week ago by pure grinding for the last 3/4 of the level. And have to do it again. And again, and again.)

I need 160,000 xp to advance a level. At 300 xp per kill, it's going to take me about 500 kills. Seeing the xp bar go up very, very slowly just causes me to despair, so I quit after only maybe 10-20 minutes. (And I wouldn't even bother, if I hadn't $300 sunk into the game).

And then you need to grind deeds to get traits (or you won't be considered cool to hard core players and get to do raids. That requires killing 100s of the same monster). Ugh, no wonder many people call it Lord of the Grind. (And that doesn't even take into the count the grinding of raids needed).

By contrast, take Atlantica Online. It's pretty grindy, but even so, because the levels are twice as much (130 vs 65), you make more steady progress.  And it's not until you hit 95 that the exp curve goes nuts. Even then, you get about 5% just for playing. Not until you hit 110 does it really get horrible

Not that that game is perfect, indeed, it replaces the gear grind with having to spend tons of money in the cash shop to max out gear.

Originally posted by tro44_1

Persistances? I understand you old schoolers have a hard time understanding this, but MMORPGs have grown, in Avg Population, over the years. Having Open Dungions, just wont work in a system like this, when your population is growing by the millions. With things like Player taging, and high populations, you may never get a chance to fight a decent scripted Boss Raid fight. In most cases, you would Lag out. Who wants that?

What game are you playing where there are millions of players on your server affecting your gameplay experience? Themepark games generally have a much, much lower cap on players per server than Sandbox games. The total number of players playing MMOs has gone up, but the number of players allowed on each server at the same time has, for the most part, gone down. There's a simple reason for this. Linear games can't handle huge amount of players without instancing, since all players that are similar levels will be forced to be in the same area by design. Open-ended games like EVE, Fallen Earth, or hell, even Darkfall can have five to ten times or more players than wow on one server. Who cares about the millions of others that are off on other servers so you'll never notice them?
 

Originally posted by dreamscaper

Wow didn't create it, true (that distinction probablly belongs to EQ), but they did perfect the system to the point where it's psychologically addictive. At least until burnout hits.

It's not fair to say EQ created it. SOE did. The original EQ and the first 2 expansions was very different from WOW. But with the next dozens of expansions SOE turned EQ into a Theme Park and probably an inspiration for WOW yes.