Enlighten me guys, what does throwing "And in this MMO, PvP has purpose" mean to you? Mechanics that cause you to lose certain things such as XP and items? Numbers that offer a stable leaderboard to see who's better? Holding world structures/objectives? Special gear?

Holding world structures/objectives, or territorial warfare. If you have to earn the best land by fighting for it, it has meaning.

PvP rank determines epeen size.

I tend to agree with Comnitus.

But for me, for PvP to have purpose, I say it needs to drive the in game economy. Or at least partially. Whether that means in order to get the best resources, you have to PvP to control the land, or in order to be effective in PvP you need to get stuff from other players (not NPC vendors, and not able to get it for yourself).

I like games that actually allow PvP to affect the game world.  Several games I have played do this, but the best example is Eve Online.  If your Corporation has enough members, resources and skill, you can take over an entire star system so that you have exclusive rights to resourcees there and get very rich and thus even more powerful.  You can exercise a shoot-to-kill policy in your system on anyone you like to maintain it... until some other alliance of Corporations decides they want it.

The nice thing about being in a Corporation like that, even low(ish) level members can earn money and gain access to rare equipment, merely by patrolling Gates and acting as escort pilots for miners and convoys.  Plenty of action guaranteed.

Unless you just want to be safe in the carebear zones.

Originally posted by Comnitus

Holding world structures/objectives, or territorial warfare. If you have to earn the best land by fighting for it, it has meaning.

Also sometimes it's fun!

Hmm I've never really thought about it.  Then again I don't kick and scream for my pvp to have purpose.  As long as it's fun, competitive, in depth combat system, with good controls, I'm usually pretty happy with that.  I'm a simple man.

It's just that usually these so called pvp games can't even provide those bullet point style traits.  They are usually clunky, play horrible, buggy, simple, stand in one spot, type of systems. 

PvP would be more fun if it was like in .hack

No limits on it and anyone could do what they wanted within the game. This would develop more of a community for it and you could actually be good or evil. It wouldn't just be mindless attacking of eachother.

 If i want PvP, i'll play something like L4D versus mode or something. :)

PvP has Lore sometimes. Look at WoW's Battle Grounds

Originally posted by Comnitus

Holding world structures/objectives, or territorial warfare. If you have to earn the best land by fighting for it, it has meaning.

I would add resources to this, which essentially falls under the definition of "the best land".  As a fan of SWG, I would really like a game with a focus on territorial control of resources, which are then used for crafting.  Not just weapons and armor, but structures as well, allowing a well developed mining and architecture class (or classes).  

I admit my example here really focuses on structures, as I was an architect in SWG.  I had a blast operating the factories, warehouses, merchants, and mining that went into the entire enterprise not to mention bartering with suppliers and visiting player cities for bulk resource deals.  I would love to expand it further, particularly to clan warfare and battle keeps, allowing a wealth of variations in guild keeps, territorial fortresses, mining operations, city building, and outpost building.  I see so much replay value there that it's almost mind boggling.  Add in all the other stuff SWG had, expand it, add wowish components (linear dungeons that drop great enhancement and component loots for the dungeon crawlers), and add in pvp territorial control for the best resources and you have a game that truly has meaning and depth. 

That's sorta my mmo dream.  Admittedly posted in a slightly off-topic thread, but I think that pvp is a requirement of a great mmo that has meaning and depth.  My post might be mistaken as a rant on crafting, but really the crafting (particularly when it comes to structures) is a tool for pvp and social content.  Pvp alone is not what can make a mmo great.  It's all about the interaction between EVERYONE, whether they're a pure fighter, pure crafter, pure dungeon crawler, entertainer, or even a darn hairdresser.  Those interactions all serve the bigger picture to make up a complete mmo experience.

for me PvP has purpose when its part of the games' story and if the game has unique rewards for participating in it. As for being penalized if you get killed tho, im not entirely happy with that. its not fun when you lose a weeks worth of exp, coz some griefers are bored. even if said griefers will lose more by PKing people, its still unfair since there are ways to get around those penalties.

The issue is a bit more complicated, as you basically have two groups of players:

• Those who feel the "meaning" of PVP is in capturing territory, resources, or items.
• Those who feel "meaning" is making decisions that matter during the fight.

They're separate groups because thus far few games have mixed the elements well.

The Resource Capture guys tend to want games where the playfield is virtually never even -- bring more guys to the fight, or better gear, or higher levels/skills, and you steamroll your helpless opponent.  This results in player decisions having little to no value during a fight (no value for the losing team, which cannot under any circumstance achieve victory; and little value for the steamrolling side, which merely has to be awake at the keyboard to capitalize on their advantage.)

And then you have games where decisions made during battle are extremely meaningful and determine the success or failure of a battle.  In such games, non-skill factors like population are significantly minimized if not eliminated entirely.  WOW's Arena and Battlegrounds, and Guild Wars are examples of such games, and "true" PVP genres like FPS and RTS games are the purest form of player decisions being meaningful.

Just because we haven't seen a lot of mix between the two doesn't mean mixing them is impossible.  Although there is a little tension between the two (because Resource Capture infers permanent bonuses are gained, which infers combat bonuses are gained from those resources somehow, which infers a non-skill element to fighting.)  Hopefully games like Global Agenda end up testing out the middle waters between the two, as I think there's a sweet spot there.

Originally posted by Thenarius

Enlighten me guys, what does throwing "And in this MMO, PvP has purpose" mean to you? Mechanics that cause you to lose certain things such as XP and items? Numbers that offer a stable leaderboard to see who's better? Holding world structures/objectives? Special gear?

1.  Satisfies "griefing" for the PK'ers.

2.  Keeps everyone "on their toes."

Now many may not like PVP, indeed most folks do not, but no one is every bored in PVP.

Same purpose as PvE!

No seriously. Most epic storys have conflicts. Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, Conan, Buffy, Transformers and Matrix.

And that is what PvP should be all about. But you need to put it into a healthy gameworld. Not only a "arena". And there should happen something to the world when PvP is in action.

And you can never have a hero or a villian if you have no PvP.

In a nutshell:

An effect to be present for the cause of PvP's outcome.

Good post Axehilt, you pretty much nailed it.

Personally, the purpose is to get better at the game, and to help my team win. I don't care what we win as long as we win. And if the only thing we win is a good ass whoopin, then maybe we will learn from our mistakes.

PVP is about competition which drives us all in our every day lives. It's not about killing other players its about winning battles and earning stature in the mean time. PVP is fun and if you can  impose purpose in the fun factor then more power to you.

Purpose = fun.  Some people like it some don't.  If you don't like it don't pvp.  

DAOC's pvp model was the best I've experienced so far at least when albion didn't zerg.

I like the idea of territory control and gaining advantages/resources for success. However while the opportunity to participate in something epic is great, you can't beat the personal satisfaction of killing someone that wronged you and walking away with their gear. To me, that is purpose, keep what you kill. While most are turned off by this type of system, full loot, its not nearly as bad as most perceive it to be. As long as its done right, a full loot PvP centric game is not one based so highly on gear such as many of the mainstream MMOs of today.  I wouldn't gain satisfaction from killing someone and taking an epic item it took them months of work to get (or would I?!), but walking away with a good 15-20 minutes of their time in my inventory and either using it myself or making a bit of profit off it is pretty reasonable imo. Especially considering many of the games people call carebear take hours of grinding to regain experience points lost upon death.  The fact that such a system works both ways is equally as great and meaningful as you develop true grudges and great friendships, making not only for exciting pvp but an interesting and lasting community.

Originally posted by Slineer

I like the idea of territory control and gaining advantages/resources for success. However while the opportunity to participate in something epic is great, you can't beat the personal satisfaction of killing someone that wronged you and walking away with their gear. To me, that is purpose, keep what you kill. While most are turned off by this type of system, full loot, its not nearly as bad as most perceive it to be. As long as its done right, a full loot PvP centric game is not one based so highly on gear such as many of the mainstream MMOs of today.  I wouldn't gain satisfaction from killing someone and taking an epic item it took them months of work to get (or would I?!), but walking away with a good 15-20 minutes of their time in my inventory and either using it myself or making a bit of profit off it is pretty reasonable imo. Especially considering many of the games people call carebear take hours of grinding to regain experience points lost upon death.  The fact that such a system works both ways is equally as great and meaningful as you develop true grudges and great friendships, making not only for exciting pvp but an interesting and lasting community.

Looks like we've got a Vin Diesel fan...

Meaningful pvp is basically pvp with some type of risk.

You come at pvp with a different mind set when you know you can lose quite a bit if you die.

Also your motivation to pvp is much more because you know you will seriously fuck up someones day by killing them.

First time I ever Pvp'd in Eve I almost had a freaking heart attack. I can't get that rush in a game like WoW with its instanced pvp and 30 second respawn shit.

 Nothing more worthless than killing a piece of shit alliance player in WoW thats defending a flag to see him almost instantly rejoin the fight. Its lame.

Originally posted by metalhead980

Meaningful pvp is basically pvp with some type of risk.

You come at pvp with a different mind set when you know you can lose quite a bit if you die.

Also your motivation to pvp is much more because you know you will seriously fuck up someones day by killing them.

First time I ever Pvp'd in Eve I almost had a freaking heart attack. I can't get that rush in a game like WoW with its instanced pvp and 30 second respawn shit.

 

 Nothing more worthless than killing a piece of shit alliance player in WoW thats defending a flag to see him almost instantly rejoin the fight. Its lame.

You must have never exp Old AV (Which also had the same current Spawning system)

Question for you: Have you ever tried Lake Wintergrasp?

To compete is to live, but what should be our reward?

Realms, territory and keeps is the answer. Pride in realm and guild over the egotisim of personnal achievement.