Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by Tetters

I would totally disagree with Wraithone here, Europeans don't even come close to the levels of entitlement that run rampant here in North America. I am English and have lived in North America for 8 years and am still blown away by people's levels of entitlement here. I would also like to point out that calling Europeans poor fools is not a wise thing to do, and as for being indoctrinated by our ruling classes ... thats just said out of pure ignorance.

North America is more than one country. Kindly don't lump us all in together. I know the other poster did it with Europe, but two wrongs don't make a right.

I totally agree, it is two countries, very different countries. I get lazy referring to it as one country as I see Europe being continually touted as one country from US television here. I apologise, I should have said 'Canada and USA' rather than North America. FYI I live in Canada

Originally posted by Tetters

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by Tetters

...

North America is more than one country. Kindly don't lump us all in together. I know the other poster did it with Europe, but two wrongs don't make a right.

I totally agree, it is two countries, very different countries. I get lazy referring to it as one country as I see Europe being continually touted as one country from US television here. I apologise, I should have said 'Canada and USA' rather than North America. FYI I live in Canada

Did Mexico finally secede from the continent then?

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that it's somewhat sad that the game 'World' gets to get 'splintered' yet again.

Each expansion is a "Realm" that has otherworldy economic boundries.

• Warlocks cannot summon non-payers into that promised land.
• BoPU Items likewise cannot be acquired
• 'indiginous' pets of course are off-limits too.

So as a player, you realize that the bus you boarded is now a train, with new, off-limit cars that you have to buy onto.

'fair enough' you say. Buy your ticket, and move onto the next car.

but now there' s a vendor in each car with little bitty toys- more 'fractured lore' that you'll get to wonder about whenever you (as a player) see something new. Maybe warlock and hunters will be able to buy functional toy variants next. Maybe shamans will get to buy different 'clothes' for their transformations. Maybe Weapons will get more FX that have nothing to do with power- but will keep you guessing. Mayabe your library of knowledge for gameplay is about to be 'unabridged'.  Maybe you'll realize keeping track of what is garbage and what is gameplay actually will make a difference in gameplay- even if Blizzard never pushes any of the 'purchasables' to gameplay 'functional' or (even worse) 'purchaser advantageous'. Wait- the 'expansions' already did that. They were 'whole worlds', yeah but the old balance went completely out the window. Oh well. I guess a whole realm of Imba for purchasers is better than a just little bit.

World Lore? Story? I got your 'lore' on a credit card at $10 a pop.

Have fun with that.

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by Wraithone

Being a little bit socialist, is like being a little bit pregnant... ^^

Do you have any children who went to public school? Did you? Well, congrats, you're a little bit socialist.

Police? Firefighting? - socialist constructs.

Ever work a union job? Hire union workers? Guess what?

Nice try, but private school for myself(my parents rightly didn't trust the public "educational" system) as well as for my children.

Police/firefighting doesn't have to be collectivist.

No union for me, I don't believe in them, nor in the class warfare meme that makes them so useful to collectvists.

But as I said, this is rather far from the topic of vanity pets in WoW. Lets move back to the usual game style mud slinging. ^^

Originally posted by Wraithone

No union for me, I don't believe in them, nor in the class warfare meme that makes them so useful to collectvists.

 

You shouldnt misscredit the hand that has feed you. Look up the history of our lifes and you will see what the union has done for you.

And its not the subject of the thread and it shows that the community is done with the subject

---

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

---

Originally posted by Wraithone
Being a little bit socialist, is like being a little bit pregnant... ^^

---

Do you have any children who went to public school? Did you? Well, congrats, you're a little bit socialist.
Police? Firefighting? - socialist constructs.
Ever work a union job? Hire union workers? Guess what?

---

The internet he's using to write up his ill-conceived post only exists because of government 'socialism', from the ground up: military funding, university funding, ARPAnet/internet funding, common carrier status, subsidizing telecommunication companies..

There's such huge cognitive dissonance with people like that they don't realize the roads they drive on exist because of evil socialism and that his parents don't bankrupt him because they get Medicare and Social Security, the education he got from kindergarten to college was all funded by the gov't.. yes, there's no way you could afford tuition if your university wasn't subsidized.

Socialism isn't 'evil' and it isn't all or nothing.

Originally posted by suldun

Well, I find most of the arguements here quite funny.  I guess most of you must be to young to remember the out cry about pay to play games.  OMG i have to BUY the game AND pay to play??  thats such BS!!!!!!  LOL

 

Gaming companies have been " double dipping"< for anyone not following allong, buying the game + a monthly fee= DOUBLE DIPPING> but since all the "good Games" were all pay to play, i guess it was ok to ignore that huh?

The only thing you guys are really complaining about is the parent company making farming obsolete.  Instead of all the " cheaters" payin some private company, they can now pay the parent company for the same benefits, you were gonna spend the money anyway riiight? 

 

Dont deny it, money/item/power leveling services have BOOMED over the last 10 years.  Think of all the money these games have been cheated of.    Sit back and look at it for what it is.  They are simply claiming what is theirs by RIGHT.  Every time you log into your game of choice you see a little agreement that most people just click ok and run right into the game.  Everyone who has ever bought ANYTHING from one of those farming companies is in breach of contract.  Half of the USA, Asia and Europe would be sitting in jail right now if it was worth their time to prosecute.  So now instead of people buying stuff from a guy who says "it fell of the truck, i swear", everything will be out in the open and you wont be buying stolen goods anymore.

I think much of the younger generation (and some of the older people too) have little regard for the legal aspect. They don't really care that they signed any agreement, most have never read it, and they have complete confidence that they're illegal actions will not be prosecuted, because so MANY others are doing the same. Time and technology, however, will eventually change that too. :) Sadly, just doing the legal thing, because you have the integrity to hold up to your end of the agreement....that's rather obsolete thinking any more, isn't it?

LOL anyone remember when cable T.V was promotted as comercial free ?  Now the only channels wtihout comercials,...are the ones you have to pay even more money to get.

This is really a deja vu kind of experience here on MMORPG isn't it? lol

Just another milestone of gamer angst that will come and go like the rest. People will either find renewed love for the genre they've played for well more than a decade, they will move on to a different genre, OR....they will at last turn to another hobby, perhaps one that doesn't change so much with the fierce winds of technology, like....I don't know....knitting or....golf?  ;)

Originally posted by Daffid011

Originally posted by Jairoe03 

You merely only present the argument by extrapolating what content is normally defined within the mmo industry into everything in the game. Vanity pets traditionally are not considered content. Game content traditionally defined by the industry tends to be the parts of the game that players can experience. A vanity pet is not an experience in itself, rather just a cheap trick or toy to show off to your buddies. The "wow" factor of it lasts a good 5-10 minutes per person that hasn't seen it before and thats it. It's fairly short lived.

Just because they look for other ways to monetize their game does not mean they don't have a reputation to uphold. They can't just sit there and think about their content and ask themselves, "Oh will this make money?". No, they have to ask themselves, "Will this add enough value to the game to want to draw in more people AND keep the current customers happy enough to stay?" They are primarily sub based and I'm sure it is in their best interest to remain so as long as they have the most subscribers out of any MMO.

The big question for all of the dissenters of the article is: Before the item shop, were you perfectly happy (or even playing) with the game? Can you choose to ignore it and play the game, business as usual, as if the shop doesn't exist? I think we all know the answers to these and I think many of you need to grow up, suck it up and take it like a man if you can't resist the urge to have a cute cuddle panda/lich.

 

Will ignoring this make it go away?  Will ignoring it guarentee that it will not get worse?

 

You draw some very large conclusions yourself in support of your non-argument.  When you rule the industry you don't have to answer to anyone about your reputation.  When other companies cannot even make a game that dents your subscriber base, you can do what you want to.  If you start to make more money from selling cheap to make pets, then the value of non-rmt subscribers diminishes.  Not to mention fluff items are very important to some people.  Do you think everyone would be happy if blizzard said there would never be another non-cash shop pet?

 

I can ignore any problem, but as can be seen in just about every other game with cash shops it will get to a point that I cannot ignore it any longer.  Eventually something I consider important will be held hostage for a additional fee that is dissproportionate to every non cash shop content in the industry.  

 

I wish people could look past the 2 fluff pets for what this really represents.  There is a reason companies hide these activities behind donations to charity.  There is a reason why they start out small.  They depend on players not taking it seriously and telling others to keep quiet.  Just like Jon is doing.

 

If people actually looked at the overall picture and the trends in other games I don't think people would be sitting here telling others they are worrying over nothing.

 

EQ2:  RMT dungeon, quests, game altering items

SWG: RMT has received more "player made" items than players have in four years.

CO: $12.50 for a character respec

DDO: Buy "veteran status" level 4 characters with items.  (semi subscription game)

FreeRealms: cash shop sells the most powerful items in the game (semi-subscription game)

 

 

I am very certain that people who do not trust developers with a cash shop have some very solid foundations to argue against the trends of cash shops in subscription games.  I see no real basis to take the advice of those who preach apathy towards the issue. 

 

 

Yes, as I've said RMT can be used VERY badly. Thats not an issue to me,as I've seen it in games(Perfect World and Free Realms come to mind as just two examples). But on the other hand, it doesn't require the type of over emo reaction we've seen in all too many posts either.  I've never been an advocate of apathy(anything but as a matter of fact). But if you wear yourself out on the trivial(vanity pets) you are going to burn out long before it gets to selling T12 gear in a cash shop(if it ever does). A sense of proportion *as well* as a sense of history is of use in these matters.

Originally posted by Wraithone 

 

Yes, as I've said RMT can be used VERY badly. Thats not an issue to me,as I've seen it in games(Perfect World and Free Realms come to mind as just two examples). But on the other hand, it doesn't require the type of over emo reaction we've seen in all too many posts either.  I've never been an advocate of apathy(anything but as a matter of fact). But if you wear yourself out on the trivial(vanity pets) you are going to burn out long before it gets to selling T12 gear in a cash shop(if it ever does). A sense of proportion *as well* as a sense of history is of use in these matters.

I'm not going to burn out early. - I have quit Blizzard, and not just WoW.

Blizzard has the subscription base and general unilateral attitude do as it pleases despite the protests from it's more hardcore crowd. Casual players will still play even if all you guys stamp off in a fit of rage.  Product of a having one game grow so large, it can choose to ignore the bugs nipping at it's neck. Having a 10 million plus player population does wonders for a company implementing changes, short of something so drastically unpopular like increase in subscription costs, it can implement cash shops at the cost of minimal sub losses. Blizzard would have to lose more than a tenth of it's population to even consider revoking the cash shop. Even then, they probably won't because 9 million is still good profits.

Originally posted by Daffid011

Will ignoring this make it go away?  Will ignoring it guarentee that it will not get worse?

 You draw some very large conclusions yourself in support of your non-argument.  When you rule the industry you don't have to answer to anyone about your reputation.  When other companies cannot even make a game that dents your subscriber base, you can do what you want to.  If you start to make more money from selling cheap to make pets, then the value of non-rmt subscribers diminishes.  Not to mention fluff items are very important to some people.  Do you think everyone would be happy if blizzard said there would never be another non-cash shop pet?

 I can ignore any problem, but as can be seen in just about every other game with cash shops it will get to a point that I cannot ignore it any longer.  Eventually something I consider important will be held hostage for a additional fee that is dissproportionate to every non cash shop content in the industry.  

 I wish people could look past the 2 fluff pets for what this really represents.  There is a reason companies hide these activities behind donations to charity.  There is a reason why they start out small.  They depend on players not taking it seriously and telling others to keep quiet.  Just like Jon is doing.

 If people actually looked at the overall picture and the trends in other games I don't think people would be sitting here telling others they are worrying over nothing.

 EQ2:  RMT dungeon, quests, game altering items

SWG: RMT has received more "player made" items than players have in four years.

CO: $12.50 for a character respec

DDO: Buy "veteran status" level 4 characters with items.  (semi subscription game)

FreeRealms: cash shop sells the most powerful items in the game (semi-subscription game)

 I am very certain that people who do not trust developers with a cash shop have some very solid foundations to argue against the trends of cash shops in subscription games.  I see no real basis to take the advice of those who preach apathy towards the issue.  

First off, if you are going to bash me, at least do it right and include supporting argument to the fact that my whole post was a "non argument", it just makes you look like a hypocrite when you tell somebody that they are lacking when you lack it in your statements as well.

A good company would not try to take the whole pie from WoW but focus on bits and pieces. The industry can thank WoW for bringing the people in and now its time to dissect and specialize these games into their respective niches and there's plenty of ways to break it down. As for the perceived negative impact (by you) of RMT usage by WoW, thats exactly whats going to balance them back out and the reason I been pointing out as to why people shouldn't worry. Despite how important the fluff is to the people, WoW is Blizzard's game and its their choice on what is made available to the customers and based on the reactions, they will react accordingly like any good company and they are a good company (even though I do feel WoW has been falling off on other factors, but thats another topic) to retain subscribers which is where the money is at for sub-based MMO's. Like Jon Wood has said in his follow-up blog, vote with your wallets rather than sit here and make assumptions off your magic 8-ball at home to what the future of RMT is going to lead up to. They haven't made anyone pay for content with cash or super awesome gear so why are we crying now about the 2 pets and assuming thats what they are going to lead up to. For all you know, the item shop could be entirely for donation purposes only and this would be just as likely as any of these other conspiracy theories about Blizzard and corporate greed.

In regards to mentioning of the trends with RMT in sub games, what trends have there been? Its been a couple days and people are assuming the worst on everything even though the customers are the ones that do ultimately make or break any company. Any other trends by other games are just as limited in time (way less than a year) and the vocal minority do not represent the silent majority that possibly could be satisfied with paying $10 for cool pets. By the way, all those mentioned games are currently running and Champions and FreeRealms are too new to even have a set trend. It hasn't even been over 2 months for Champions and last time I checked, FreeRealms was free -_-

Another assumption you made is the fact that people like myself are preaching apathy. What a misperception and don't fault me for being smart enough to evaluate the current situation and not base any of my complaints about a company on assumptions. If Blizzad decided to make content only accessible after I pay $5 for every new dungeon they make, I would be up in arms with the rest of the paranoids out there (since they done did it at that point and the conspiracies are no longer assumptions). Again, you are just making an ass out of you and me and if my arguments seem baseless then I don't want to know what you should consider your own. Apparently, you must think its appropriate to make assumptions and complain about "what could be" rather than "what it is".

People need to quit trying to look into the future and into the minds of the company that manages an MMO giant because it truely is pointless (and I don't need any support for that, thats common sense).

When you make assumptions (like blizzard is smart and will never do something) then you say it is common sense.  When I make speculation you mock it as if I am being some conspiracy freak.

My friend, I showed you evidence of exactly what happens in games with cash shops and RMT on top of subscription fees.  That is not speculation.  Those are facts.  It is also a fact that blizzard is following these models, because they now have a cash shop of their own.   I think you will be hard pressed to find even 1 subscription game with a cash shop that doesn't go over the fluff only line. 

If you wish to remain silent then feel free to, but please stop trying to make people look like they are over reacting to the FACTS of what is going on in the industry.   If you want to wait to complain until after things have gotten out of hand, then that is your choice, but don't expect your voice to be heard once the damage is done and don't think you are being smart for doing so. 

Everything you have said, as well as others preaching silence as a response, has already been said in those other games I mentioned.  The original poster is preaching a worn out message that has already blown up in the face of many people in those other games and the same will most likely happen in wow.  Sitting by idle while a cash shop is implemented opens the door to nothing but loss for players.  I think everyone in this thread has acknowledged that, but they don't seem to care until it affects what they consider to much.  For all the support cash shops are getting I don't see people listing huge benefits they give players.  

In the end you are not getting 100% of the game for your subscription fee and people here seem to think that is something worth defending.  To me it doesn't matter that it is fluff pets now, because it is a loss no matter how you look at it.  If you can make a rational arguement about how all players benefit from cash shops I am all ears, but I know no one can make that defense.

Apathy is a fitting term I think, because  people are displaying a lack of concern until it directly affects you.  Just like it was for people in EQ2, SWG, etc. 

 What is humorous is how you think "if blizzard does X then I will complain" is acting any different than people in this thread who are speaking out.  When it does get to that stage, there will be people who call you names and say things like "its only 1 dungeon and we still get 5 free ones". 

The only thing of merit being argued here is WHEN it is to much, because almost everyone has stated there is a point where it is to much.  Even though people have not stated it, we all agree cash shops are bad.  We all just have different breaking points and yours is not the textbook definition of when they become bad.  The very nature of cash shops is bad and all we are really debating is our level of tolerance for them.  I simply don't like them, because they benefit no one but the developer.

Finally a posy that goes against my thinking without sounding like a child without his favorite toy. thank you for your excellent post Daffid011.

These people claiming they won't buy a blizzard game will secretly be buying their games anyways, just pretending to be all angry and stuff lmao.

I personally won't be touching a Blizzard product ever again, but you can just go ahead and think what you want about that.

Do you really think that you can compare something like a movie theater experience with a computer game that you sit at home and play? How absurd, these arguments are completely void. The boy who cried wolf thing makes absolutely zero sense as well. I found myself laughing through most of this article, try again.

Good for you then, stick up for your beliefs.  I'll be enjoying some Startcraft 2 and Diablo 3 here pretty soon, woot.

i wonder if people are mad at Bioware for charging for Downloadable content, i mean shouldn't it have come with the game, why should we pay for it? sounds like RMT to me.

Guess people are never gonna play a Bioware game again for doing RMT with a single player game eh?

592 posts, most full of spite and self-deluded grandiose false indignation.  Maybe this genre does need to die.  All this what-if how-about-that when-they-do-that, over two little inconsequential pets in a virtual world.  I'd love to see the meltdown that happens when some of you have your favorite TV show preempted, or when a restaurant messes up an order.  Must be utter CHAOS. 

Get some perspective people.

Originally posted by Eben

.... or when a restaurant messes up an order.  Must be utter CHAOS. 

Get some perspective people.

That made me chuckle. I must have seen a mmo player when I ate tonight. Alot of loud talk about a thing not being what is supposed to be. Former wow player was what struck me :)

Why not run around and riot and plant bombs in Blizzard's headquarters if they actually do offer RMT for EXP, stats, items, etc.? Things that affect gameplay? Right now people are screaming and shouting that it's coming, but it's pointless. You're taking a risk here. If you're right, you get to say, "We warned you! We told you so!" But if you're wrong, you look like a bunch of morons trying to destroy the dreaded RMT in any way, shape, or form.

Then again, this kind of drama is why I come to this site, so, on second thought, keep it up.

If it comes to things that affect game play or not, whatever, it doesn't matter at this point. In my opinion, they have already crossed the line.

Love your sig btw.

All the cries of outrage is from people who want one, but dont want to fork up the 10 bucks.

I did not expect an impartial article about this from MMO journalists, point me to the article on this site when they have ever had a go at any decision Blizzard has made?

Putting ‘boy who cried wolf’ in the title sums it up, it was never going to be a balanced article about the pros and cons.

First that ridiculous score for Aion, now this, might as well get back to the player forums where even the fanboys are less rabid in their adoration.

Originally posted by colutr

All the cries of outrage is from people who want one, but dont want to fork up the 10 bucks.

 

I have never, ever, wanted any pet that Blizzard has introduced to the game. Sorry.

Originally posted by Scot

I did not expect an impartial article about this from MMO journalists, point me to the article on this site when they have ever had a go at any decision Blizzard has made?

Putting ‘boy who cried wolf’ in the title sums it up, it was never going to be a balanced article about the pros and cons.

First that ridiculous score for Aion, now this, might as well get back to the player forums where even the fanboys are less rabid in their adoration.

Exactly. Blizzard is already offering pets OUTSIDE of the game at a cost since ... 5 years now. Even with the introduction of the game you had pets out of the game.

For YEARS pets and non significant game vanity stuff is being offered through the Card game (buying them for ovcer 300 Euros on the ebay channels or through Blizzcon (125 Dollars).

The only thing that changed was the click button to pay: instead of an ebay button, you  now click on the Blizzard button.

--- > The fact this site AGAIN decided to go with that title shows their attitude. Instead of writing about the revolutionary cross server dungeons and new LFG tools, they shit on Blizzard - like always.

----> However we had a RL meeting with our guild yesterday.

-----------

And just to inform you for all WOW haters: the new direction  Blizzard is taking WITH the new game mechanics (cross servers, dual specs, very easy PUG pick ups, CHOICES in content diffculty (per boss even),  is a BOOST to having fun at your level (wherever you are in the game).

And Blizzard ensures it 24/7 in groups as of patch 3.3.

An unseen achievement for a game that will celibrate its 5 th anniversary (but Blizzard constantly fine tunes the game of course).

What most of you don't understand.... BLIZZARD now shapes this industry .... and the others try to follow and fail.

The new keyword is 24/7 PVE/PVP grouped gaming fun at YOUR pace in YOUR time at YOUR level

Patch 3.3 can't come quick enough. It'll blow the "old concepts" of mmorpg's away.

And CATACLYSM will be the atomic bomb on top of these new mechanics.

Now THIS is inside news dear editors of mmorpg.com, not some vanity pet on a click button.

I pity the competition.