Originally posted by DracosBwing

Originally posted by Ruyn

Originally posted by DracosBwing

I think that people complaining about this are kinda stupid. Why would you bitch about the price of something that does nothing, and isn't needed for anything? If someone wants to pay for the thing, fine. If not... just as good. When Blizzard begins to sell things you need in that shop, THEN complain.

I saw someone say they quit playing WoW after ten years over this. I can only laugh at the concept that this one thing was enough to make them finally quit... though I have a good feeling they were just talking crap. The people who seemed filled with rage over it were also kinda funny, as online gaming in general shouldn't be that important to cause that level of rage in the first place, much less over a colorful bit of useless crap they apparently don't even plan on paying for.

What strikes me the most about this all is that it seems like people are complaining because perhaps they are the type of players who has to have every little thing and if they don't, then they can't enjoy the game... even if the things they have are totally useless for anything but showing off. It reminds me of when I used to play that game myself and would see people decked out to the gills in top of the line armor.... just standing around doing nothing while lesser players ooohed and aaahed over their leet gear. :-\

Why don't you read the thread so you understand the reasons why people are alarmed.

 

Because its 53 pages long, and I think there's no reason to be alarmed? Also, I've played a lot of those cash shop based 'free' games. If blizzard was stupid enough to convert to that kind of thing, they would not only deserve all of this here, but would seriously discredit themselves in the eyes of most gamers, and put games like Starcraft 2 and Diablo 3 in jeopardy of being ignored or outright boycotted for the potential to follow suit and be cash shop based. Do you think they're gonna do that?

And I'll say it again. The Cash Shop is voluntary. Since this is the case, and they have yet to go full on cash shop style game on you guys, there's no reason to get all bent out of shape. Just... don't use it. Don't use it.

 

...Don't use it.

Do you not think that Starcraft will be charging ppl for extra maps?  Wanna bet ? Get real - they are launching forced battlenet to all Blizzard accounts for a reason. 

Starcraft and diablo 3 are already at risk.  There will be quite alot of players not buying these games because its becoming very much obvious what the goal for Blizzrad is.  And it has very little to do with gaming.

Originally posted by Jairoe03

Originally posted by Tetters

Originally posted by Frobner

 You said it yourself - Optional thing that doesn't change the game ...  Would a real gaming company then put it into their game ?  No - Buisness company would....

Thats the thing.  BLizzard has crossed the line from beeing a gaming compnay - into a pure buisness company.  Where the experince of the gamer becomes second chose.  EXTRA money matters more for them.

This is a huge point, the makers of games are no longer gamers themselves, intent on making a great game, but a business that has to produce a return on investment/equity.

 

 

A company does involve business. A gaming company is merely the genre of company that Blizzard seems to be classified as because guess what their products involve. Yes, it is ran like a company because it is a company. Are you really shedding any new light into this world? If you owned the top game and its starting to peak, you would probably be maximizing profits while you can too. Has anyone seemed to be complain when the expansions were being sold for $40 a pop? Or the fact that faction switches are the same price as most normal PC expansion packs? This is just Blizzard being Blizzard, they are the top dog and they are taking advantage of it and you would be nuts if you didn't do the same as a COMPANY. They are after-all a company and there is some point in the day where they got to take care of their bottom line or if you are number 1, maximize while you can. You don't stay number 1 forever -_-

Again, if you are there with them, you would be doing the same. Do not act like if you were offered an opportunity to make extra money at your job (with minimal extra effort), that you wouldn't take it or you would be lying to yourselves. I know how easily influenced you Americans are by money and it definitely shows in this thread and responses to this article.

BLizzard has been a company for many years creating top quality titles with the perspective of the gamer. as the biggest priority.

QUite frankly I would NOT do the same that Blizzard is doing now.  As long as every employee at my company is beeing payed then I would be fine in "just" creating top quality games to deliver to gamers.  Thats why BLizzard has become so big.  They have always honored this principle.  But now... they are creating extra funds......... not for the games ... not for the gamers..... but for the SHAREHOLDERS that have nothing to do with games.  

THats the diffrence.. And no.  If I had any right as a gaming company to stand by my principle of creating games for gamers instead of changing gameplay or features - JUST to make the shareholders more money and making the gamers pay more - I would not do that.  

BLizzard had the right to say ...no.. this is not what we want to see in our game.  They did not - and there will be alot of ppl realising that alot has changed at Blizzard since the good old days of diablo and WC1.  BLizzard was still a company then - it just had other moral values.  Values where gamers were MOST important.  You can see that in the games.  And you can also see now - with this item shop that  things have changed alot.

Diablo 3 ?  SC 2 ?  NO thank you.  My money will continue to go to companies that are creating games for gamers.  Not by creedily charging extra to make the sharholders extra money at the cost of the gamers.  Cause that is what BLizzard is doing now.  It is just buisness.  

And buisness is buisness - and gamers are fools. 

 I Can´t believe this, and i can´t stand you!

i played WoW since its release, i loved it, but had to stop due college. it just consumes too much of my time, i´ve played tons of other games, some good, some bad.  all you do is QQ about a CASH SHOP, ITS JUST 2 PETS, 2 PETS, get OVER IT, look at yourselves! there are TONS of games with cash shops for valuable items, blizzard is selling PETS that have no influence on server economy, if they would sell gear/gold, that would influence server economy.  Posts like these simply encourage me to leave MMORPG.com because nearly everyone here is just a hater of blizzard.  try look at things from a neutral perspective, you are all trolls/haters if you QQ so much about PETS being sold, PETS

NON-COMBAT PETS

regards,

vlad

Originally posted by Skudd

Originally posted by Alienovrlord

Stupid game companies will think the way suggested in the article and ignore the outcries based on their frequency.

Smart game companies will look at the outcry resulting from a fairly minor micotransaction issue and consider what will happen if they try to push the issue even further.  

Stupid posters think that their retarded comments will actually make a difference in the gaming industry.

 

Smart game companies will look at the profits/popularity (if any) resulting from the micro transaction they introduced and consider what to do next.... and not take the views of a largely troll infested site, where almost all of the so called "outcries" come from people who either don't play the game or like the game company to begin with.

 

Just saying...  

There you go again, using reason/rationality when an emotional response is required... Its not so much the site, as it is many of the posters. Its pretty much the same on other sites as well.  This hysteria is just another example of the sense of entitlement all too many people have managed to pick up over the years.  Its rotting the core out of society at large(games are only a surface aspect).

Originally posted by Jairoe03

Originally posted by Tetters

Originally posted by Frobner

 You said it yourself - Optional thing that doesn't change the game ...  Would a real gaming company then put it into their game ?  No - Buisness company would....

Thats the thing.  BLizzard has crossed the line from beeing a gaming compnay - into a pure buisness company.  Where the experince of the gamer becomes second chose.  EXTRA money matters more for them.

This is a huge point, the makers of games are no longer gamers themselves, intent on making a great game, but a business that has to produce a return on investment/equity.

 

 

A company does involve business. A gaming company is merely the genre of company that Blizzard seems to be classified as because guess what their products involve. Yes, it is ran like a company because it is a company. Are you really shedding any new light into this world? If you owned the top game and its starting to peak, you would probably be maximizing profits while you can too. Has anyone seemed to be complain when the expansions were being sold for $40 a pop? Or the fact that faction switches are the same price as most normal PC expansion packs? This is just Blizzard being Blizzard, they are the top dog and they are taking advantage of it and you would be nuts if you didn't do the same as a COMPANY. They are after-all a company and there is some point in the day where they got to take care of their bottom line or if you are number 1, maximize while you can. You don't stay number 1 forever -_-

Again, if you are there with them, you would be doing the same. Do not act like if you were offered an opportunity to make extra money at your job (with minimal extra effort), that you wouldn't take it or you would be lying to yourselves. I know how easily influenced you Americans are by money and it definitely shows in this thread and responses to this article.

Your last made me chuckle(such ignorance isn't really worth a real laugh any more).  If you think that Europeans or any other national group aren't just as motivated by money/power you are either ignorant/naive or you are an ideologue.  Europe is much further along the socialism/entitlement curve than the US has managed to this point.  The tragic aspect of it is, they have been so indoctrinated by their Ruling Class that the poor fools think of it as "civilization".   Its anything but.  This sense of entitlement is what we are seeing in the current hysteria over a couple of *vanity* pets.  One of the reasons(among legions) that Blizzard's WoW is hated is that its so *successful*. Blizzard has demonstrated that they can make Billions from their game, and no one else has even come close to their numbers. That seriously grates on the sensibilities of the entitled class.  Its not "fair", its "greedy"... On and on it goes.  Bottom line, if you don't like WoW, don't play it. If you do, ignore the howlings of the entitled class, and enjoy your game while you can.

Originally posted by Wraithone

 

Your last made me chuckle(such ignorance isn't really worth a real laugh any more).  If you think that Europeans or any other national group aren't just as motivated by money/power you are either ignorant/naive or you are an ideologue.  Europe is much further along the socialism/entitlement curve than the US has managed to this point.  The tragic aspect of it is, they have been so indoctrinated by their Ruling Class that the poor fools think of it as "civilization".   Its anything but.  This sense of entitlement is what we are seeing in the current hysteria over a couple of *vanity* pets.  One of the reasons(among legions) that Blizzard's WoW is hated is that its so *successful*. Blizzard has demonstrated that they can make Billions from their game, and no one else has even come close to their numbers. That seriously grates on the sensibilities of the entitled class.  Its not "fair", its "greedy"... On and on it goes.  Bottom line, if you don't like WoW, don't play it. If you do, ignore the howlings of the entitled class, and enjoy your game while you can.

I only point out Americans because in my opinion, most of the disagree'ers sounds American to me and these are just based on my observations and beliefs. I do not like to comment about other countries that I haven't at least been to and seen so thats why I tend to leave others out. I don't discredit the fact that money makes the world go round everywhere, but I'm also convinced that this sort of thinking (self entitlement/self righteousness) might be more prominent in our country than some of the others. We are known to be arrogant as a people after all and I really don't disclude myself from that, its just annoying how everybody here merely just thinks everything revolves arounds themselves as in no one else exists in their world. Maybe its just too much customer service and a bad case of hating every other douchebag driver on the road. But again, this is me pulling from my experiences and beliefs ;)

Yeah, I definitely do agree with your post for the most part even on the ignorance part because in fact, I do not know anything about Europe hence the lack of any inclusion of them ;) And I merely think Blizzard is mostly just hated within this community and others that covers a broad spectrum of the MMORPG industry.

Originally posted by Wraithone

 

Your last made me chuckle(such ignorance isn't really worth a real laugh any more).  If you think that Europeans or any other national group aren't just as motivated by money/power you are either ignorant/naive or you are an ideologue.  Europe is much further along the socialism/entitlement curve than the US has managed to this point.  The tragic aspect of it is, they have been so indoctrinated by their Ruling Class that the poor fools think of it as "civilization".   Its anything but.

No, it IS civilization. Citizens of a modern industrial society ARE entitled to certain qualities of life. It's the dog-eat-dog, law of the jungle cultures which are cruel and primitive.

Of course, some people take it for granted, but socialism is about generosity, while capitalism is about greed and selfishness.

Not any of this pertains to what people have a right to WRT a P2P MMO, of course, but you brought it up.

  This sense of entitlement is what we are seeing in the current hysteria over a couple of *vanity* pets.  One of the reasons(among legions) that Blizzard's WoW is hated is that its so *successful*. Blizzard has demonstrated that they can make Billions from their game, and no one else has even come close to their numbers. That seriously grates on the sensibilities of the entitled class.  Its not "fair", its "greedy"... On and on it goes.  Bottom line, if you don't like WoW, don't play it. If you do, ignore the howlings of the entitled class, and enjoy your game while you can.

Socialism doesn't have classes - that's the law of the jungle culture again.

For the record (before the 'commie' slurs starts flying) - I believe in socialism for the neccesities of life, and capitalism for the luxuries.

Originally posted by Jairoe03

Originally posted by Tetters

Originally posted by Frobner

 You said it yourself - Optional thing that doesn't change the game ...  Would a real gaming company then put it into their game ?  No - Buisness company would....

Thats the thing.  BLizzard has crossed the line from beeing a gaming compnay - into a pure buisness company.  Where the experince of the gamer becomes second chose.  EXTRA money matters more for them.

This is a huge point, the makers of games are no longer gamers themselves, intent on making a great game, but a business that has to produce a return on investment/equity.

 

 

A company does involve business. A gaming company is merely the genre of company that Blizzard seems to be classified as because guess what their products involve. Yes, it is ran like a company because it is a company. Are you really shedding any new light into this world? If you owned the top game and its starting to peak, you would probably be maximizing profits while you can too. Has anyone seemed to be complain when the expansions were being sold for $40 a pop? Or the fact that faction switches are the same price as most normal PC expansion packs? This is just Blizzard being Blizzard, they are the top dog and they are taking advantage of it and you would be nuts if you didn't do the same as a COMPANY. They are after-all a company and there is some point in the day where they got to take care of their bottom line or if you are number 1, maximize while you can. You don't stay number 1 forever -_-

Again, if you are there with them, you would be doing the same. Do not act like if you were offered an opportunity to make extra money at your job (with minimal extra effort), that you wouldn't take it or you would be lying to yourselves. I know how easily influenced you Americans are by money and it definitely shows in this thread and responses to this article.

Jairoe, just to clarify my position, I am not knocking Blizzard at all. If you read through my posts here you will see that I don't have a problem with them making this move.

Blizzard is a business and has to be run as such. 

Originally posted by Jairoe03

Originally posted by Wraithone

 

Your last made me chuckle(such ignorance isn't really worth a real laugh any more).  If you think that Europeans or any other national group aren't just as motivated by money/power you are either ignorant/naive or you are an ideologue.  Europe is much further along the socialism/entitlement curve than the US has managed to this point.  The tragic aspect of it is, they have been so indoctrinated by their Ruling Class that the poor fools think of it as "civilization".   Its anything but.  This sense of entitlement is what we are seeing in the current hysteria over a couple of *vanity* pets.  One of the reasons(among legions) that Blizzard's WoW is hated is that its so *successful*. Blizzard has demonstrated that they can make Billions from their game, and no one else has even come close to their numbers. That seriously grates on the sensibilities of the entitled class.  Its not "fair", its "greedy"... On and on it goes.  Bottom line, if you don't like WoW, don't play it. If you do, ignore the howlings of the entitled class, and enjoy your game while you can.

 

I only point out Americans because in my opinion, most of the disagree'ers sounds American to me and these are just based on my observations and beliefs. I do not like to comment about other countries that I haven't at least been to and seen so thats why I tend to leave others out. I don't discredit the fact that money makes the world go round everywhere, but I'm also convinced that this sort of thinking (self entitlement/self righteousness) might be more prominent in our country than some of the others. We are known to be arrogant as a people after all and I really don't disclude myself from that, its just annoying how everybody here merely just thinks everything revolves arounds themselves as in no one else exists in their world. Maybe its just too much customer service and a bad case of hating every other douchebag driver on the road. But again, this is me pulling from my experiences and beliefs ;)

Yeah, I definitely do agree with your post for the most part even on the ignorance part because in fact, I do not know anything about Europe hence the lack of any inclusion of them ;) And I merely think Blizzard is mostly just hated within this community and others that covers a broad spectrum of the MMORPG industry.

I would totally disagree with Wraithone here, Europeans don't even come close to the levels of entitlement that run rampant here in North America. I am English and have lived in North America for 8 years and am still blown away by people's levels of entitlement here. I would also like to point out that calling Europeans poor fools is not a wise thing to do, and as for being indoctrinated by our ruling classes ... thats just said out of pure ignorance.

Originally posted by Tetters

I would totally disagree with Wraithone here, Europeans don't even come close to the levels of entitlement that run rampant here in North America. I am English and have lived in North America for 8 years and am still blown away by people's levels of entitlement here. I would also like to point out that calling Europeans poor fools is not a wise thing to do, and as for being indoctrinated by our ruling classes ... thats just said out of pure ignorance.

North America is more than one country. Kindly don't lump us all in together. I know the other poster did it with Europe, but two wrongs don't make a right.

Originally posted by Tetters

Jairoe, just to clarify my position, I am not knocking Blizzard at all. If you read through my posts here you will see that I don't have a problem with them making this move.

Blizzard is a business and has to be run as such. 

Consider me misunderstood, its very hard to track what everybody has said as everybody pops in and out making different comments through out the day. I only can keep track of the ones around the time I log in and log out. I try to fill in the in-betweens but its so much reading and the post is usually "outdated" or "responded to/clarified" later on. Hey, I try my best, but its not possible to track everything and even memorize in such an active thread, which is thankfully winded down ;)

Originally posted by Jairoe03 

You merely only present the argument by extrapolating what content is normally defined within the mmo industry into everything in the game. Vanity pets traditionally are not considered content. Game content traditionally defined by the industry tends to be the parts of the game that players can experience. A vanity pet is not an experience in itself, rather just a cheap trick or toy to show off to your buddies. The "wow" factor of it lasts a good 5-10 minutes per person that hasn't seen it before and thats it. It's fairly short lived.

Just because they look for other ways to monetize their game does not mean they don't have a reputation to uphold. They can't just sit there and think about their content and ask themselves, "Oh will this make money?". No, they have to ask themselves, "Will this add enough value to the game to want to draw in more people AND keep the current customers happy enough to stay?" They are primarily sub based and I'm sure it is in their best interest to remain so as long as they have the most subscribers out of any MMO.

The big question for all of the dissenters of the article is: Before the item shop, were you perfectly happy (or even playing) with the game? Can you choose to ignore it and play the game, business as usual, as if the shop doesn't exist? I think we all know the answers to these and I think many of you need to grow up, suck it up and take it like a man if you can't resist the urge to have a cute cuddle panda/lich.

Will ignoring this make it go away?  Will ignoring it guarentee that it will not get worse?

You draw some very large conclusions yourself in support of your non-argument.  When you rule the industry you don't have to answer to anyone about your reputation.  When other companies cannot even make a game that dents your subscriber base, you can do what you want to.  If you start to make more money from selling cheap to make pets, then the value of non-rmt subscribers diminishes.  Not to mention fluff items are very important to some people.  Do you think everyone would be happy if blizzard said there would never be another non-cash shop pet?

I can ignore any problem, but as can be seen in just about every other game with cash shops it will get to a point that I cannot ignore it any longer.  Eventually something I consider important will be held hostage for a additional fee that is dissproportionate to every non cash shop content in the industry.  

I wish people could look past the 2 fluff pets for what this really represents.  There is a reason companies hide these activities behind donations to charity.  There is a reason why they start out small.  They depend on players not taking it seriously and telling others to keep quiet.  Just like Jon is doing.

If people actually looked at the overall picture and the trends in other games I don't think people would be sitting here telling others they are worrying over nothing.

EQ2:  RMT dungeon, quests, game altering items

SWG: RMT has received more "player made" items than players have in four years.

CO: $12.50 for a character respec

DDO: Buy "veteran status" level 4 characters with items.  (semi subscription game)

FreeRealms: cash shop sells the most powerful items in the game (semi-subscription game)

I am very certain that people who do not trust developers with a cash shop have some very solid foundations to argue against the trends of cash shops in subscription games.  I see no real basis to take the advice of those who preach apathy towards the issue. 

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by Wraithone

 

Your last made me chuckle(such ignorance isn't really worth a real laugh any more).  If you think that Europeans or any other national group aren't just as motivated by money/power you are either ignorant/naive or you are an ideologue.  Europe is much further along the socialism/entitlement curve than the US has managed to this point.  The tragic aspect of it is, they have been so indoctrinated by their Ruling Class that the poor fools think of it as "civilization".   Its anything but.

No, it IS civilization. Citizens of a modern industrial society ARE entitled to certain qualities of life. It's the dog-eat-dog, law of the jungle cultures which are cruel and primitive.

Of course, some people take it for granted, but socialism is about generosity, while capitalism is about greed and selfishness.

Not any of this pertains to what people have a right to WRT a P2P MMO, of course, but you brought it up.

  This sense of entitlement is what we are seeing in the current hysteria over a couple of *vanity* pets.  One of the reasons(among legions) that Blizzard's WoW is hated is that its so *successful*. Blizzard has demonstrated that they can make Billions from their game, and no one else has even come close to their numbers. That seriously grates on the sensibilities of the entitled class.  Its not "fair", its "greedy"... On and on it goes.  Bottom line, if you don't like WoW, don't play it. If you do, ignore the howlings of the entitled class, and enjoy your game while you can.

Socialism doesn't have classes - that's the law of the jungle culture again.

 

For the record (before the 'commie' slurs starts flying) - I believe in socialism for the neccesities of life, and capitalism for the luxuries.

NO. NO ONE is entitled to the fruits of others creativity/imagination/talent/intelligence/labor. Period.  Such a mentality is NOT civilization. It is the might(of the many) makes "right".  Socialism is not about "generosity". It is first and foremost about Power. The Power to *take* from the productive and *give* to the non productive. The Power to indoctrinate entire generations to believe that this is anything but theft.  That IS what socialism is all about.  The idea that socialism is classless is no doubt amusing to The Party... I'm still waiting for one of you to produce a non subjective definition of "greed". As I've always said, it usually breaks down to "you have more than me" or "You have more than I believe you should".  Being a little bit socialist, is like being a little bit pregnant... ^^ But the key that ties this all together is the sense of entitlement. That does not happen naturally. It is fostered by a ever growing dependence on the State and its various "services".  But this is rather far from the current topic. We now return you to your on going MMO emotion fest...

Originally posted by Daffid011

 

Will ignoring this make it go away?  Will ignoring it guarentee that it will not get worse?

 

You draw some very large conclusions yourself in support of your non-argument.  When you rule the industry you don't have to answer to anyone about your reputation.  When other companies cannot even make a game that dents your subscriber base, you can do what you want to.  If you start to make more money from selling cheap to make pets, then the value of non-rmt subscribers diminishes.  Not to mention fluff items are very important to some people.  Do you think everyone would be happy if blizzard said there would never be another non-cash shop pet?

 

I can ignore any problem, but as can be seen in just about every other game with cash shops it will get to a point that I cannot ignore it any longer.  Eventually something I consider important will be held hostage for a additional fee that is dissproportionate to every non cash shop content in the industry.  

 

I wish people could look past the 2 fluff pets for what this really represents.  There is a reason companies hide these activities behind donations to charity.  There is a reason why they start out small.  They depend on players not taking it seriously and telling others to keep quiet.  Just like Jon is doing.

 

If people actually looked at the overall picture and the trends in other games I don't think people would be sitting here telling others they are worrying over nothing.

 

EQ2:  RMT dungeon, quests, game altering items

SWG: RMT has received more "player made" items than players have in four years.

CO: $12.50 for a character respec

DDO: Buy "veteran status" level 4 characters with items.  (semi subscription game)

FreeRealms: cash shop sells the most powerful items in the game (semi-subscription game)

 

 

I am very certain that people who do not trust developers with a cash shop have some very solid foundations to argue against the trends of cash shops in subscription games.  I see no real basis to take the advice of those who preach apathy towards the issue. 

 

 

QFE, Well said .

Originally posted by Wraithone

Being a little bit socialist, is like being a little bit pregnant... ^^

Do you have any children who went to public school? Did you? Well, congrats, you're a little bit socialist.

Police? Firefighting? - socialist constructs.

Ever work a union job? Hire union workers? Guess what?

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by Tetters

I would totally disagree with Wraithone here, Europeans don't even come close to the levels of entitlement that run rampant here in North America. I am English and have lived in North America for 8 years and am still blown away by people's levels of entitlement here. I would also like to point out that calling Europeans poor fools is not a wise thing to do, and as for being indoctrinated by our ruling classes ... thats just said out of pure ignorance.

North America is more than one country. Kindly don't lump us all in together. I know the other poster did it with Europe, but two wrongs don't make a right.

I totally agree, it is two countries, very different countries. I get lazy referring to it as one country as I see Europe being continually touted as one country from US television here. I apologise, I should have said 'Canada and USA' rather than North America. FYI I live in Canada

Originally posted by Tetters

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by Tetters

...

North America is more than one country. Kindly don't lump us all in together. I know the other poster did it with Europe, but two wrongs don't make a right.

I totally agree, it is two countries, very different countries. I get lazy referring to it as one country as I see Europe being continually touted as one country from US television here. I apologise, I should have said 'Canada and USA' rather than North America. FYI I live in Canada

Did Mexico finally secede from the continent then?

.

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by Wraithone

Being a little bit socialist, is like being a little bit pregnant... ^^

Do you have any children who went to public school? Did you? Well, congrats, you're a little bit socialist.

Police? Firefighting? - socialist constructs.

Ever work a union job? Hire union workers? Guess what?

Nice try, but private school for myself(my parents rightly didn't trust the public "educational" system) as well as for my children.

Police/firefighting doesn't have to be collectivist.

No union for me, I don't believe in them, nor in the class warfare meme that makes them so useful to collectvists.

But as I said, this is rather far from the topic of vanity pets in WoW. Lets move back to the usual game style mud slinging. ^^

Originally posted by Wraithone

No union for me, I don't believe in them, nor in the class warfare meme that makes them so useful to collectvists.

 

You shouldnt misscredit the hand that has feed you. Look up the history of our lifes and you will see what the union has done for you.

And its not the subject of the thread and it shows that the community is done with the subject