Originally posted by zaxxon23

There are so many flaws in your analogy.  I'm not even going to get into f2p microtransaction, they're not what I call rmt.  In player to player rmt, the fact of the matter is the people don't spend much if any money while leveling their characters.  They might buy some gold to stock up on reagents, but only the truly hardcore rmters are going to actually buy gear during the leveling process.  So for your analogy, the fact is that most player *do* run your little race track and improve their character on their own.

 

RMT usually hits its stride in the end game.  People want to buy the uber gear that for whatever reason they can't get.  They are no longer leveling or improving the play of their character, they are simply improving their character's stats for end game content or pvp.  Now, you could throw an entirely different analogy/argument for that situation.  But the realistic use of rmt essentially nullifies your argument.  You, and everyone else, are free to level your character and completely learn it before even considering participating in rmt.  Only a fool would buy gear they can only use for 5-10 levels.

I do not believe this statement is correct. In any case, my concern is more with things like xp potions, not so much gear.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by zaxxon23

There are so many flaws in your analogy.  I'm not even going to get into f2p microtransaction, they're not what I call rmt.  In player to player rmt, the fact of the matter is the people don't spend much if any money while leveling their characters.  They might buy some gold to stock up on reagents, but only the truly hardcore rmters are going to actually buy gear during the leveling process.  So for your analogy, the fact is that most player *do* run your little race track and improve their character on their own.

 

RMT usually hits its stride in the end game.  People want to buy the uber gear that for whatever reason they can't get.  They are no longer leveling or improving the play of their character, they are simply improving their character's stats for end game content or pvp.  Now, you could throw an entirely different analogy/argument for that situation.  But the realistic use of rmt essentially nullifies your argument.  You, and everyone else, are free to level your character and completely learn it before even considering participating in rmt.  Only a fool would buy gear they can only use for 5-10 levels.

 

I do not believe this statement is correct. In any case, my concern is more with things like xp potions, not so much gear.

Technically, I guess I'd agree.  However, it ultimately comes down to whether you really care.  I personally have no need for xp pots, cause I'm gonna get to the end myself without issue.  If someone feels they need to rush and beat me with xp pots than more power to them.  I'm just not the kind of person who really cares about being first to top level.

Beyond not really caring about someone competing against me using xp pots they bought, I also see positives to xp pots.  Those joining the game later can catch up quicker.  My friend who was gone on vacation and didn't start until ten days later can catch up quicker.  In that particular situation, my enjoyment of the game is enhanced and I didn't even have to spend a dime. 

IMO, only a super egotistical person would care about someone else having a slight advantage in a game which means nothing.  Points to serious mental issues in my book, which is why I usually get so annoyed with the anti-rmters.

Originally posted by zaxxon23

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by zaxxon23

There are so many flaws in your analogy.  I'm not even going to get into f2p microtransaction, they're not what I call rmt.  In player to player rmt, the fact of the matter is the people don't spend much if any money while leveling their characters.  They might buy some gold to stock up on reagents, but only the truly hardcore rmters are going to actually buy gear during the leveling process.  So for your analogy, the fact is that most player *do* run your little race track and improve their character on their own.

 

RMT usually hits its stride in the end game.  People want to buy the uber gear that for whatever reason they can't get.  They are no longer leveling or improving the play of their character, they are simply improving their character's stats for end game content or pvp.  Now, you could throw an entirely different analogy/argument for that situation.  But the realistic use of rmt essentially nullifies your argument.  You, and everyone else, are free to level your character and completely learn it before even considering participating in rmt.  Only a fool would buy gear they can only use for 5-10 levels.

 

I do not believe this statement is correct. In any case, my concern is more with things like xp potions, not so much gear.

 

Technically, I guess I'd agree.  However, it ultimately comes down to whether you really care.  I personally have no need for xp pots, cause I'm gonna get to the end myself without issue.  If someone feels they need to rush and beat me with xp pots than more power to them.  I'm just not the kind of person who really cares about being first to top level.

 

Beyond not really caring about someone competing against me using xp pots they bought, I also see positives to xp pots.  Those joining the game later can catch up quicker.  My friend who was gone on vacation and didn't start until ten days later can catch up quicker.  In that particular situation, my enjoyment of the game is enhanced and I didn't even have to spend a dime. 

 

IMO, only a super egotistical person would care about someone else having a slight advantage in a game which means nothing.  Points to serious mental issues in my book, which is why I usually get so annoyed with the anti-rmters.

IMO, that is a negative, not a positive.

I would prefer a balance between static and randomization.  The more randomized an encounter is, the more it becomes about adaptability, and less about preparation.  Now, having to adapt quickly can be exciting and fun, but it limits the range of possibilities for the encounter.  Every randomized attack that an enemy has, the player must have the means to counter on the fly, but if it can be predicted, then it can be prepared for.  The means to deal with it need not be something in the player's easily accessed arsenal.  Predictability allows for more flexibility, but if it's too predictable, then it loses the excitement.

Consider Prince Malchezaar.  An encounter with a high degree of complexity.  He had some very specific abilities that he used in random ways.  Reacting to the timing around his shadow explosions, coupled with the dropped to 1 hp, and then throw in the randomly placed infernals...  This is probably the single most lamented about boss in the history of at least World of Warcraft, if not MMOs in general.  A large portion of players cried that he was too hard, and that they couldn't deal with the randomized portion of the fight.  I disagree, and say that a fight like that is a fantastic mixture of static and randomized abilities.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by Torik

You have me confused here.  I always thought that 'scaling dungeons' refered to the dungeons getting harder depending on the level of character that enters them. 

So following your analogy, if you trained for a year as a runner and then came back to win your cookie, you would find out that you now have to run 5 miles in under 10 minutes to get the cookie since you 'leveled up' while training. 

As far as your take on RMT you are agian mixing things up.  RMT for non-trivial items serves as a shortcut to progressing your character.  So the absolute difficulty level of the dungeon remains the same but you get more powerful relative to it.

In fact by leveling up, grouping up, and gearing up you yourself are reducing the relative difficulty of the challenge.  Beating a level 5 mob when you are a level 1 is a challenge but becomes trivial when you are level 10.   This is why we move on to higher level mobs since we want our challenges to be non-trivial.  The mere act of progressing our character trivializes the challenge in content.

 

Why would I get the same cookie for running a mile in less than ten minutes and 5 miles in less than ten minutes?

And the dungeons scale UP, and DOWN.

If I can run 5 miles in less than 10 minutes, shouldn't that be a MUCH bigger accomplishment than running 1 mile in ten minutes?

Shouldn't I get then 10 cookies?

See, this is the problem if you change the environment all the time, and not the person or character.

There is no absolute measure of anything if everything "scales" or is changeable.

I want the race to be set in stone, without change. It is what it is.

You run 1 mile, under 10 minutes, you get one cookie. The ONLY thing that can change is YOU the runner.

I want the dungeon to be set in stone without change, it is what it is. You can beat the boss mob at the bottom of the dungeon. He never changes, he never gets more stats, less stats, more mobs around him, or less. He is always EXACTLY the same, then ONLY thing that changes is your CHARACTER.

Same with RMT games. I want the game to be what it is, all the time, set in stone. The Mobs give the xp they give, the NEVER give any different amount.

The WORLD doesn't change, you CHARACTER changes. Anything less feels like an IWIN button.

 

Keeping to the track theme, I agree that the track should not and does not change. The distance around the track will be the same no matter who is running on it. The goals will change though. If you bring a grade school team, high school team, college or pro. The times to run around the track to win will be different. The items brought out to put on the track will also be different depending on which group will be on the track. The tools on the track scale with the increase in skill of the runners as well as the rewards.

What is the problem with dungeons scaling to the skill of the players? If you want to run something solo, the difficulty should be different than running it in a group. The rewards will scale with the difficulty. That way anyone can see the content, but the best rewards will always go to the highest skill.

You can add to the scale for multiple play styles. Have solo basic solo epic, small group and full group basic and epic. Each with a better reward for completion. For the players that just want to see the content, they will have a way to do that. For the players that want a chalenge or group will have that. Players that want the Phat Loots can run the epic difficulty.

Scaling dungeons would make for a better game and healthier community. Everyone has an option for their style, but are not locked into one way and one way only. More options are always better.

Going back to the track theme. Every athlete can run track to test there ability against others. Not every athlete will want to or have the skill to go pro and break records using the best tools on the track. That doesn't mean the athelets that just want to run on the track can't have a time to do so at their own skill level. They will not get anything out of it other than enjoyment. The rewards go to the pros but enjoyment should be for everyone.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

 

All you've done is state what you find fun in a game.

I don't want developers to stop making games you find fun.

I'm glad you enjoyed DDO.

I played DDO, and I did not like the scaling dungeons, I thought they made the game less fun.

I also do not like the RMT, such as buying bags. I think that makes the game less fun.

It's ok for different people to like differeent games. Why would you tell me I"m wrong for not likeing the same kind of game you do?

Nope, what I havedone  is state that it is good that a game offers enough variety of challenges, tools, etc to appeal to a wide range of gamers.  If you are too weak to not use XP potions because then you would suffer an additionnal grind that others would not, the problem is in your head, buddy. You know what, games designers dont go:"geez, we got to make a game to appeal to ihmotepp, we really do, he is the only type of player that matters to us". No, the more and more they will try offer a choice, a flexibility in the games, to appeal to more players. If you will not take the opportunity to play the game at the highest difficulty, since this is what you say you thrive on, and use the easy button instead, the fault is yours and yours alone. Go ahead, stop playing each game that offers those possibilities, it means that eventually you will stop playing those games altogether, and we will hopefully stop seeing nonsensical posts like yours. Anyway, have fun, Im out of this and pretty much all your whining threads.

Challenge = Difficulty.   A game can still be difficult with RMT elements.

WOW has RMT, but the most difficult Hard Mode versions of bosses are still challenging.

If WOW was designed with scaling content, even more stuff in the game would be challenging.  And offer appropriately superior rewards.  With heroic mode solo quests, even soloers would get challenge.

Ihmotepp, it's like you choose a bunch of random elements of MMORPGs and attempt to make an association between them where none exists.

Either that or you assume the bad way of doing things is the only way of doing things.  There's more to RMT than just making a super-grindy game and selling XP Boost potions.   There's more to scaling content difficulty than trying to maintain a single difficulty throughout the game designed to be appropriate for all players (and therefore quite boring to the skilled.)

No, there are perfectly fine ways of implementing RMT in a game, and there are even better ways of implementing scaling content.

Originally posted by dopplemmo

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

 

All you've done is state what you find fun in a game.

I don't want developers to stop making games you find fun.

I'm glad you enjoyed DDO.

I played DDO, and I did not like the scaling dungeons, I thought they made the game less fun.

I also do not like the RMT, such as buying bags. I think that makes the game less fun.

It's ok for different people to like differeent games. Why would you tell me I"m wrong for not likeing the same kind of game you do?

 

Nope, what I havedone  is state that it is good that a game offers enough variety of challenges, tools, etc to appeal to a wide range of gamers.  If you are too weak to not use XP potions because then you would suffer an additionnal grind that others would not, the problem is in your head, buddy. You know what, games designers dont go:"geez, we got to make a game to appeal to ihmotepp, we really do, he is the only type of player that matters to us". No, the more and more they will try offer a choice, a flexibility in the games, to appeal to more players. If you will not take the opportunity to play the game at the highest difficulty, since this is what you say you thrive on, and use the easy button instead, the fault is yours and yours alone. Go ahead, stop playing each game that offers those possibilities, it means that eventually you will stop playing those games altogether, and we will hopefully stop seeing nonsensical posts like yours. Anyway, have fun, Im out of this and pretty much all your whining threads.

The programming of the game is not in my head, it's on the server.

The rules of the game are what they are. I can't change that, only the developers  can with programming language.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

The rules of the game are what they are. I can't change that, only the developers  can with programming language.

And those l33t hax0rz