Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by whisperwynd

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by whisperwynd

 

This I have to completely disagree with. I can still play WoW, or EQ2 or any game with RMTs and not see a difference at all in my gameplay. I really don't know where you get this. Nothing in the world has changed, i don't see posters or billboards or wagons driving by with cardboards signs selling marketing these items.

I can't even tell when another player is using an xp pot, so really, it's only in your head. That alone makes it change for you...you can't use a blanket statement and say it's game altering, only your experience of it because you can't ignore it.

 

Reality exists whether you choose to ignore it or not.

The rules have changed, the game has changed. This is still true even if you close your eyes and stick your fingers in your ears.

 

I disagree. You see it as an issue and so will see nothing but that. I don't, so it won't stick to my craw. It's a matter of perspective.

Nothing has changed but your perception of the game, no skills were altered, the landscape didn't grow mountains, instances haven't spawned new bosses. Nothing perceivable changes except when you see someone with said item.

I tolerate these little additions, you do not. That's ok. But you can't say it'll affect everyone as not every one cares as you do.

 

If that was true, then no programmer would have written new code.

But new programming code has been written.

Reality has changed.

You are arguing that the game has not changed as long as you pretend it hasn't.

This is simply not true.

What you really mean is you like the new game. It's silly to argue that changing the rules has not changed the rules in reality because you pretended they didn't change.

You want the code to never change?  Have fun in single player games.  Why are you on an MMORPG forum?

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by Horusra

The same exists on your side of the arguments.  The fact is you pay to play a game.  How and for what they charge you is the games reality.

 

I don't think anyone is disputing that.

I choose to pay to play games which don't sell items. You like playing games which sell items.

That's fine, since different people like different things.

However, it seems incredibly silly to play a game that sells items while pretending it doesn't, or to play a game that doesn't sell items and pretend it does.

I wonder where do you get that we go around blindly, pretending to not see it. I know it is there...I just don't care it's there. 
 

Code changes every patch they put in, does it mean I have to scrutinize every bit and piece of it. Not unless it changes my experience of playing it. I don't collect pets, so having a pet available to buy will RL money means little to nothing.

Originally posted by Malickie

My analogy of Bob and Tim:

Bob is an expert marksman, as well as a superb smith. Bob has won the state title many times over for his precision and devotion. Tim, Bobs friend decides he wants to be like Bob. There's a problem though, Tim's not that great of a shot. See Bob won this great gun in a competition years ago. With his knowledge as a smith he improved  this gun. Tim thinks that's what makes Bob good. So tim goes out and buys a +100 accuracy gun. He enters next years competition, he places top of the contenders to take on Bob. It's close but Bob wins, Tim is in disbelief. He paid a lot more for his gun than Bob did his, What's the deal he asks? Bob's answer to him was,  Tim you just didn't earn it, you didn't take the time to advance yourself in your endeavor. You relied on cash to win for you, hence you learned nothing before participating.

 

That's how I feel about RMT.

you assume that +100 gun is for sale in the RMT.  When that happens we can talk.  Till then no tax money to Cali.  It is going to fall into the ocean.

Originally posted by Horusra

Originally posted by Malickie

My analogy of Bob and Tim:

Bob is an expert marksman, as well as a superb smith. Bob has won the state title many times over for his precision and devotion. Tim, Bobs friend decides he wants to be like Bob. There's a problem though, Tim's not that great of a shot. See Bob won this great gun in a competition years ago. With his knowledge as a smith he improved  this gun. Tim thinks that's what makes Bob good. So tim goes out and buys a +100 accuracy gun. He enters next years competition, he places top of the contenders to take on Bob. It's close but Bob wins, Tim is in disbelief. He paid a lot more for his gun than Bob did his, What's the deal he asks? Bob's answer to him was,  Tim you just didn't earn it, you didn't take the time to advance yourself in your endeavor. You relied on cash to win for you, hence you learned nothing before participating.

 

That's how I feel about RMT.

 

you assume that +100 gun is for sale in the RMT.  When that happens we can talk.  Till then no tax money to Cali.  It is going to fall into the ocean.

And this has been my view as well, as I've stated before.

Originally posted by Horusra

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by whisperwynd

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by whisperwynd

 

This I have to completely disagree with. I can still play WoW, or EQ2 or any game with RMTs and not see a difference at all in my gameplay. I really don't know where you get this. Nothing in the world has changed, i don't see posters or billboards or wagons driving by with cardboards signs selling marketing these items.

I can't even tell when another player is using an xp pot, so really, it's only in your head. That alone makes it change for you...you can't use a blanket statement and say it's game altering, only your experience of it because you can't ignore it.

 

Reality exists whether you choose to ignore it or not.

The rules have changed, the game has changed. This is still true even if you close your eyes and stick your fingers in your ears.

 

I disagree. You see it as an issue and so will see nothing but that. I don't, so it won't stick to my craw. It's a matter of perspective.

Nothing has changed but your perception of the game, no skills were altered, the landscape didn't grow mountains, instances haven't spawned new bosses. Nothing perceivable changes except when you see someone with said item.

I tolerate these little additions, you do not. That's ok. But you can't say it'll affect everyone as not every one cares as you do.

 

If that was true, then no programmer would have written new code.

But new programming code has been written.

Reality has changed.

You are arguing that the game has not changed as long as you pretend it hasn't.

This is simply not true.

What you really mean is you like the new game. It's silly to argue that changing the rules has not changed the rules in reality because you pretended they didn't change.

 

You want the code to never change?  Have fun in single player games.  Why are you on an MMORPG forum?

You make no sense.

I said I don't want the RULES to change.

I did not say I never want new CONTENT.

Adding a new zone does not change the Rules.

Adding RMT changes the RULES of the entire game.

If you change the code so that it affects teh RULES< you have changed the game.

whisperwynd is arguing that if you change teh RULES you have not changed the game because he can pretend the RULES have not changed.

Originally posted by Horusra

Originally posted by Malickie

My analogy of Bob and Tim:

Bob is an expert marksman, as well as a superb smith. Bob has won the state title many times over for his precision and devotion. Tim, Bobs friend decides he wants to be like Bob. There's a problem though, Tim's not that great of a shot. See Bob won this great gun in a competition years ago. With his knowledge as a smith he improved  this gun. Tim thinks that's what makes Bob good. So tim goes out and buys a +100 accuracy gun. He enters next years competition, he places top of the contenders to take on Bob. It's close but Bob wins, Tim is in disbelief. He paid a lot more for his gun than Bob did his, What's the deal he asks? Bob's answer to him was,  Tim you just didn't earn it, you didn't take the time to advance yourself in your endeavor. You relied on cash to win for you, hence you learned nothing before participating.

 

That's how I feel about RMT.

 

you assume that +100 gun is for sale in the RMT.  When that happens we can talk.  Till then no tax money to Cali.  It is going to fall into the ocean.

In many games it is and it's always available through illegal RMT in any game.

Any time you balance the game you change the 'rules'.  You add a new class you change the 'rules'.  Adding in bought pets changes the 'rules'.  It seems you are against any change to a game beside basic content added on to the original build of the game.  In other words a single player game with DLC like Fallout and Oblivion.  Face it mmo's evolve with new technology and new ideas.  If they did not they would not last the years that some of them do.  Evolution changes the rules.  Believe it says on the box that gameplay may change on the box when you bought it.

Originally posted by Malickie

Originally posted by Horusra

Originally posted by Malickie

My analogy of Bob and Tim:

Bob is an expert marksman, as well as a superb smith. Bob has won the state title many times over for his precision and devotion. Tim, Bobs friend decides he wants to be like Bob. There's a problem though, Tim's not that great of a shot. See Bob won this great gun in a competition years ago. With his knowledge as a smith he improved  this gun. Tim thinks that's what makes Bob good. So tim goes out and buys a +100 accuracy gun. He enters next years competition, he places top of the contenders to take on Bob. It's close but Bob wins, Tim is in disbelief. He paid a lot more for his gun than Bob did his, What's the deal he asks? Bob's answer to him was,  Tim you just didn't earn it, you didn't take the time to advance yourself in your endeavor. You relied on cash to win for you, hence you learned nothing before participating.

 

That's how I feel about RMT.

 

you assume that +100 gun is for sale in the RMT.  When that happens we can talk.  Till then no tax money to Cali.  It is going to fall into the ocean.

In many games it is and it's always available through illegal RMT in any game.

As stated before....name the P2P game that has game changing items for sale as in weapons and armor that allow your skill to be better than someone elses that does not buy it.  I have yet to see an example.  Just examples of F2P games that make their cash off you having to buy items.

Originally posted by Horusra

Any time you balance the game you change the 'rules'.  You add a new class you change the 'rules'.  Adding in bought pets changes the 'rules'.  It seems you are against any change to a game beside basic content added on to the original build of the game.  In other words a single player game with DLC like Fallout and Oblivion.  Face it mmo's evolve with new technology and new ideas.  If they did not they would not last the years that some of them do.  Evolution changes the rules.  Believe it says on the box that gameplay may change on the box when you bought it.

perhaps it should say "gamplay May change according to what you pay"

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

 

You make no sense.

I said I don't want the RULES to change.

I did not say I never want new CONTENT.

Adding a new zone does not change the Rules.

Adding RMT changes the RULES of the entire game.

If you change the code so that it affects teh RULES< you have changed the game.

whisperwynd is arguing that if you change teh RULES you have not changed the game because he can pretend the RULES have not changed.

 

Actually no, that's your assumption of what you're reading, not what I'm saying. You keep saying pretending, unfortunatley that's not how it is. They may have changed the 'rules' as you put it, but nothing as of yet has been changed ingame. If and when it does and the game does change, and noticeably, then I might see it your way.

However, nowhere is it indicated or even hinted at these kinds of changes. Until they do, I'd appreciate stopping putting your views on what I write as i my own and understand what I'm saying.

Originally posted by whisperwynd

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

 

You make no sense.

I said I don't want the RULES to change.

I did not say I never want new CONTENT.

Adding a new zone does not change the Rules.

Adding RMT changes the RULES of the entire game.

If you change the code so that it affects teh RULES< you have changed the game.

whisperwynd is arguing that if you change teh RULES you have not changed the game because he can pretend the RULES have not changed.

 

 

Actually no, that's your assumption of what you're reading, not what I'm saying. You keep saying pretending, unfortunatley that's not how it is. They may have changed the 'rules' as you put it, but nothing as of yet has been changed ingame. If and when it does and the game does change, and noticeably, then I might see it your way.

However, nowhere is it indicated or even hinted at these kinds of changes. Until they do, I'd appreciate stopping puuting your views on what I write as i my own and understand what I'm saying.

whysper are thier new pets in game avaible to everyone for the money they already paid this month for thier fee?.....nope...then gameplay has changed

hello 800 lb gorilla my name is mothelm and i see you ....did you bring you brother the elephant...i hear you guys never plan anything in advance and use decption and misdirection to sneak in ...this will go badly for us gamer's we are giving them license with every RMT purchase to do more and expand where they go with it ...and to the gentleman who said blizzard whould never do it...i remind SOE told thier players directly it wouldn't happen and month or 2 later it did...also Blizard is no longer blizzard they are EA or vivendi cant remember which

Originally posted by Horusra

 

As stated before....name the P2P game that has game changing items for sale as in weapons and armor that allow your skill to be better than someone elses that does not buy it.  I have yet to see an example.  Just examples of F2P games that make their cash off you having to buy items.

I was answering the OP with an opinion, not trying to prove someone wrong. I can link you straight to IGE or any other illegal site, to show you all the game changing crap you need for any game you want it for. That was the point I was making, it doesn't have to be legal to fit with my anology of people "buying an advantage". RMT is RMT whether it be offered through the company or a thrid party. The whole reason it's being instituted in p2p games is to cut down on the illegal use of it, at least its one major factor in it. Second to turn a profit of course, if players didn't do it, because they want to be like Bob, there would be no need to bring it in any way.

Originally posted by mothelm

 

whysper are thier new pets in game avaible to everyone for the money they already paid this month for thier fee?.....nope...then gameplay has changed

hello 800 lb gorilla my name is mothelm and i see you ....did you bring you brother the elephant...i hear you guys never plan anything in advance and use decption and misdirection to sneak in ...this will go badly for us gamer's we are giving them license with every RMT purchase to do more and expand where they go with it ...and to the gentleman who said blizzard whould never do it...i remind SOE told thier palyer directly it wouldn't happen and onth or 2 later it did

 

I'm sorry, no I didn't notice because I don't collect pets.

Really sorry it has affected you this way, but not everyone collects pets. I already said i see your point and understand where it is comming from.

Is it so difficult to see that I could care less about a goofy looking pet walking beside you doing absolutely nothing for my gameplay?

Make an issue of it all you want, but you can't expect everyone to have the same gripe.

to be straight up hoinest as i stated before i dont even play WoW ATM....and nope im not a pet collector however...i see the gorilla standing there thinking ....Hmmmmthat worked pretty well what can i do next?....i have survied to many MMo disasters to not a a skepticial view of the companies that run them (not the people who make them)..they are turning more and more preadtory with each RMt addition...simply stated if you want your game to be RMT then be RMT go for downlaod and item mall thats fine b/c...i started with my eye open to the fact that i will have to spend money to get what i want...Flip side is if i pay a subscrption i should have the cahnce to view all the content in the game threw game mechanic's not further charges.

Now on a side note the charity part of the WoW money grab is good thing ...however if they were gonna use this to sugarcoat it they could have done alot better by giving all the proceeds to charity and not setting them selves up for this by making only 1 pet 50% donation...this screams scam to me big time!...

what will interest me is how this all progresses . will Blizzard stick at vanity items or go further with xp boosts . mounts . dances and emotes before finally offering real game changers like armor and weapons . lots of people say it wont go that far but i m not so sure . a lot of things have happened recently that i never thought i d see . pve-pvp transfers , race and faction changes . as for people willing to spend money on virtual pets well .... a fool and his money are soon parted .

Originally posted by mothelm

to be straight up hoinest as i stated before i dont even play WoW ATM....and nope im not a pet collector however...i see the gorilla standing there thinking ....Hmmmmthat worked pretty well what can i do next?....i have survied to many MMo disasters to not a a skepticial view of the companies that run them (not the people who make them)..they are turning more and more preadtory with each RMt addition...simply stated if you want your game to be RMT then be RMT go for downlaod and item mall thats fine b/c...i started with my eye open to the fact that i will have to spend money to get what i want...Flip side is if i pay a subscrption i should have the cahnce to view all the content in the game threw game mechanic's not further charges.

 

Now on a side note the charity part of the WoW money grab is good thing ...however if they were gonna use this to sugarcoat it they could have done alot better by giving all the proceeds to charity and not setting them selves up for this by making only 1 pet 50% donation...this screams scam to me big time!...

I can agree with that. As I said to many oters before, I'll definitely think twice about my stand when they do that, seeing as many believe that's where it's going.
 

We can be cynical, or optimistic about it to be sure.  As a whole i wish RMT's didn't exist, especially the illegal ones. And before anyone calls me hypocritic about this last statement, let me say...I still don't them, IN THEIR PRESENT FORM, as a deterrent to my gameplay.

It saddens me think it might just go down that pit, I'm still hoping that games like WoW won't, not until I'm bored with it yet and have given it up.

Thanks Mothelm, I liked the debate. Now it's time to go bed.

Cheers

Originally posted by mothelm

Dear sir...
 

it has come to my attention that you belevie the fact that i have already paid a monthly fee doesnt seem to matter...ok then i please refer to my previous post about playboy ,you will find them above and on previous pages, after you have it  and the replies ...please answer this question...Is that the playboy you paid for

 

thank you

mothelm

This?

"You subscribe to Playboy for the last 2 years....this month your playboy shows up with all the articles but none of the pictures...and a small letter that says ...if you would like to get the pictures please send us and extra 20 $per month on your subscrption...now you mag says playboy on the cover..has articles written by playboy staff ...so it is playboy but is it the playboy you paid for ?"

Yes and No. Yes because it is the publication delivering a magazine to you (magazine are not required to have pictures). No because (especially with playboy) you expect to have naked women to look at. If they made this change they could do it just as you said. At which time you then you can contact the company and cancel your subscription and request a refund for unused portions of your current subscription.

Either way this isn't even relevant to my point (maybe somewhere in this thread you have some correlation in you mind but I didn't read every bit of this thread). What you are suggesting here is if Blizzard would take the Night Elf race out of the game and then turn to you and say give us more money and you can play it again.

What these pets are in correlation to your playboy example isn't taking pictures out. It would be like if you paid an extra $5 a month you would also get a DVD video included with your purchase. Then you have 50k subscribers who did not upgrade the subscription that want the DVD and complain that they should be getting be and should be getting it for free. No where did Blizzard take something away from you, they only added more. I don't believe these pets were available before this and they took them away and then chose to charge for them.

Also add the fact that it still would not make them RMT if they added a race you need to buy. DDO has two jobs and two races that you need to pay money to unlock or earn enough points to unlock them later. As for DDO it is their business model to give you X amount of content for free then charge you à la carte for additional stuff or have a VIP status where you pay a subscription and get everything. Blizzard could follow suit and charge you for addition content à la carte. In fact they already do ... it is called an expansion pack. Still doesn't make them RMT.

Originally posted by ic0n67

Originally posted by mothelm

Dear sir...
 

it has come to my attention that you belevie the fact that i have already paid a monthly fee doesnt seem to matter...ok then i please refer to my previous post about playboy ,you will find them above and on previous pages, after you have it  and the replies ...please answer this question...Is that the playboy you paid for

 

thank you

mothelm

 

This?

"You subscribe to Playboy for the last 2 years....this month your playboy shows up with all the articles but none of the pictures...and a small letter that says ...if you would like to get the pictures please send us and extra 20 $per month on your subscrption...now you mag says playboy on the cover..has articles written by playboy staff ...so it is playboy but is it the playboy you paid for ?"

Yes and No. Yes because it is the publication delivering a magazine to you (magazine are not required to have pictures). No because (especially with playboy) you expect to have naked women to look at. If they made this change they could do it just as you said. At which time you then you can contact the company and cancel your subscription and request a refund for unused portions of your current subscription.

Either way this isn't even relevant to my point (maybe somewhere in this thread you have some correlation in you mind but I didn't read every bit of this thread). What you are suggesting here is if Blizzard would take the Night Elf race out of the game and then turn to you and say give us more money and you can play it again.

What these pets are in correlation to your playboy example isn't taking pictures out. It would be like if you paid an extra $5 a month you would also get a DVD video included with your purchase. Then you have 50k subscribers who did not upgrade the subscription that want the DVD and complain that they should be getting be and should be getting it for free. No where did Blizzard take something away from you, they only added more. I don't believe these pets were available before this and they took them away and then chose to charge for them.

Also add the fact that it still would not make them RMT if they added a race you need to buy. DDO has two jobs and two races that you need to pay money to unlock or earn enough points to unlock them later. As for DDO it is their business model to give you X amount of content for free then charge you à la carte for additional stuff or have a VIP status where you pay a subscription and get everything. Blizzard could follow suit and charge you for addition content à la carte. In fact they already do ... it is called an expansion pack. Still doesn't make them RMT.

 

Not quite the right analogy.  More like instead of hot chicks the magazine is full of fat chicks and you have to pay the extra money for the hot chicks.

so what you are saying is that when i purchase a game box..+expansions,+pay a monthly fee its right and good that they want to charge me again for something?........why is that ?....havent i already paid for the games content not once but 12 times a year ?

yeah i changed it littel earlier in dicussion but yeah it didnt quite make the point i was after

All the discussions about game changing RMT is pretty much moot.

The real question is whether most of the market will accept it. By the new found popularity of DDO, and success of ROM & Maple Story, I will say most people do not have a problem with RMT.

Personally, i don't. If you do, you are pretty much out of luck. If you really care a lot about a company selling VIRTUAL PETS in a GAME, then you probably need to get a life.

ahh the old standard "Get A Life"...heheh i think this is stated at least once in every post where there is a disagrement....why is that i always wondered...could it be b/c you have no statement to agrue or simply dont understand debate?

After reading most of the posts on this topic, I was overwhelmed by an urge to scream NERDS!

This Blizzard selling a couple of pets is no different that them selling them via TCG, only you do not need to spend a few hundred bucks opening packs to get them.  RMT was orginally a term used for gold sellers not game companies that sell items.  And WTF its WoW, don't half of you constantly post how lame it is anyways. Why would you care or is this just another way to rant about a g ame you dislike?

Originally posted by Ruyn

Not quite the right analogy.  More like instead of hot chicks the magazine is full of fat chicks and you have to pay the extra money for the hot chicks.

Still not the right analogy  ...

@mothelm

Anywho ... should they charge you for something extra? If they choose to do that yes they should. These things are nothing that change the mechanics of the game in the least bit. If you will put an analogy worth using. It would be the equivalent of buying a Toyota and a Porche. If you want to look all special: Buy the damn Porche. If you don't care and you want to get to work every day: Buy the damn Toyota.

This is extra, above and beyond, something that is not needed. If they decided to have these two pets in this game at all would you cry yourself to sleep every night? I don't know, I'd hope not. If they decided to add them and give them out for free would you jump for joy? Again I don't know, but since you said you are not a pet collector I'd assume not. Then why get upset when they add something that you do not want that does not benefit the purchases or hinder you for not buying. I know you see the pink elephant, but this is not what you fear it could be. If they would make it so some epic armor is available to buy from an online store that is what you fear and that is when you should really complain. If they did that it would ruin the game and they would lose so many people. Honestly I'd think they would lose so many and gain so little that it would be a true detriment to the the future success or WoW and the next Blizzard MMO. If you think this is just a test to see if people are gulible enough to spend more and more money then as I said before don't buy it. If it is a test and no one buys then it proves to Blizzard that people are not willing to spend extra money on perks, although as I said before with purchasing anything like a collectors edition already proves that people will do it ... I mean how many people NEEDED a scale model of a Master Chief helm from Halo 3?

the point is there should not be a above and beyond....if WoW or any other subscrption based game wanted RMT they should go free to play offer thier game for free DLand open up a item mall and btw you can have all the useless accounts cluttering up your server and lag and utter nonsense that goes with a completely openmarket they want thier cake and eat it too so to speak too ...if you are subscrption based that means you press out content for the pepople who are paying...not grab them for money twice....