I like a set challenge, and a reward for overcoming that challenge.

I will use a simple example of running around a track in a certain time, and then getting a cookie.

Let's say we start with 1 mile, under ten minutes, and you get a cookie. What if you can't run the one mile in under 10? You can train hard, and you will get faster, and once you can do it, you get the cookie.

This is a sense of accomplishment, because YOU have changed, not the rules, not the environment. In otherwords, when you try to morrow, the track is still 1 mile, the time is still 10 minutes. We didnt' shorten the track to 1/4 mile, or change it to 20 minutes just so you could get the cookie. If we did, then IMO there is no sense of accomplishment, and you have essentially destroyed the challenge.

For me this works the same with RMT game,s and with Scaling dungeons.

I want my character to grow in power (the cookie, new gear, spells, abilities) by overcoming a set challenge (killing mobs doing quests).

So I go into a dungeon, make it to level 2, get killed. I go get help, a full party, make it to level 4, get killed. I go level up, my party levels up, and we go back, and make it to level 7 die. We keep up this process till we make it to the bottom and kill the boss mob. Or, I could level up even more and make it to the bottom solo and kill the boss mob. Yay! I have overcome a challenge, and I get a cookie (loot drop, level on to the next zone, etc.).

My character has changed, gotten stronger, we have not changed the environment. We did not scale the dungeon so there were less mobs so I could just get the cookie, and not overcome the challenge by getting stronger.

Same with RMT games. I COULD play an RMT game without buying anything, but I would soon quit because the grind would be so boring. It's MADE to be grindy, so I will go to the cash shop and buy something to make it LESS grindy.

What am I doing when I go to the cash shop? I am not making my character more powerful by overcoming challenges, I am changing the environment. The mobs now give more xp.

It's the same for me as if we said, ok, the track is now 1/4 mile instead of a mile, here's your cookie, or we said, yea, you can just take 20 minutes instead of 10 no problem, here's your cookie.

I want a set objective to complete. I want to complete that objective because my CHARACTER changes, not because I magically change the environment.

DDO have both RMT and Dungeons scaling and I think its one of the most challenging MMOs ;)

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

I like a set challenge, and a reward for overcoming that challenge.

I will use a simple example of running around a track in a certain time, and then getting a cookie.

Let's say we start with 1 mile, under ten minutes, and you get a cookie. What if you can't run the one mile in under 10? You can train hard, and you will get faster, and once you can do it, you get the cookie.

This is a sense of accomplishment, because YOU have changed, not the rules, not the environment. In otherwords, when you try to morrow, the track is still 1 mile, the time is still 10 minutes. We didnt' shorten the track to 1/4 mile, or change it to 20 minutes just so you could get the cookie. If we did, then IMO there is no sense of accomplishment, and you have essentially destroyed the challenge.

For me this works the same with RMT game,s and with Scaling dungeons.

I want my character to grow in power (the cookie, new gear, spells, abilities) by overcoming a set challenge (killing mobs doing quests).

So I go into a dungeon, make it to level 2, get killed. I go get help, a full party, make it to level 4, get killed. I go level up, my party levels up, and we go back, and make it to level 7 die. We keep up this process till we make it to the bottom and kill the boss mob. Or, I could level up even more and make it to the bottom solo and kill the boss mob. Yay! I have overcome a challenge, and I get a cookie (loot drop, level on to the next zone, etc.).

My character has changed, gotten stronger, we have not changed the environment. We did not scale the dungeon so there were less mobs so I could just get the cookie, and not overcome the challenge by getting stronger.

Same with RMT games. I COULD play an RMT game without buying anything, but I would soon quit because the grind would be so boring. It's MADE to be grindy, so I will go to the cash shop and buy something to make it LESS grindy.

What am I doing when I go to the cash shop? I am not making my character more powerful by overcoming challenges, I am changing the environment. The mobs now give more xp.

It's the same for me as if we said, ok, the track is now 1/4 mile instead of a mile, here's your cookie, or we said, yea, you can just take 20 minutes instead of 10 no problem, here's your cookie.

I want a set objective to complete. I want to complete that objective because my CHARACTER changes, not because I magically change the environment.

 

I feel like you don't understand what scalable dungeons actually are...

You have me confused here.  I always thought that 'scaling dungeons' refered to the dungeons getting harder depending on the level of character that enters them. 

So following your analogy, if you trained for a year as a runner and then came back to win your cookie, you would find out that you now have to run 5 miles in under 10 minutes to get the cookie since you 'leveled up' while training. 

As far as your take on RMT you are agian mixing things up.  RMT for non-trivial items serves as a shortcut to progressing your character.  So the absolute difficulty level of the dungeon remains the same but you get more powerful relative to it.

In fact by leveling up, grouping up, and gearing up you yourself are reducing the relative difficulty of the challenge.  Beating a level 5 mob when you are a level 1 is a challenge but becomes trivial when you are level 10.   This is why we move on to higher level mobs since we want our challenges to be non-trivial.  The mere act of progressing our character trivializes the challenge in content.

What RMT has to do with anything I have no idea.

But by your premises, Diablo was effortless. You are completely confused as to what a scaling, randomized dungeon is.

My only problem with RMT is merely one of preference. I'd just rather pay one price, know I've got access to everything and not have to think about it.

The scalability however can bug me if used as a filler for content.  Case in point, in Age of Conan, the Noble's Villas quests. Each time you run it, the mobs are your level. You level, they level.  The main problem I have with that is that it doesn't count as "content" which is what the AoC devs were relying on it for till they pushed out new content.  Running the same content at the same difficulty (relative to you) over and over is lame.

Originally posted by Torik

You have me confused here.  I always thought that 'scaling dungeons' refered to the dungeons getting harder depending on the level of character that enters them. 

So following your analogy, if you trained for a year as a runner and then came back to win your cookie, you would find out that you now have to run 5 miles in under 10 minutes to get the cookie since you 'leveled up' while training. 

As far as your take on RMT you are agian mixing things up.  RMT for non-trivial items serves as a shortcut to progressing your character.  So the absolute difficulty level of the dungeon remains the same but you get more powerful relative to it.

In fact by leveling up, grouping up, and gearing up you yourself are reducing the relative difficulty of the challenge.  Beating a level 5 mob when you are a level 1 is a challenge but becomes trivial when you are level 10.   This is why we move on to higher level mobs since we want our challenges to be non-trivial.  The mere act of progressing our character trivializes the challenge in content.

Why would I get the same cookie for running a mile in less than ten minutes and 5 miles in less than ten minutes?

And the dungeons scale UP, and DOWN.

If I can run 5 miles in less than 10 minutes, shouldn't that be a MUCH bigger accomplishment than running 1 mile in ten minutes?

Shouldn't I get then 10 cookies?

See, this is the problem if you change the environment all the time, and not the person or character.

There is no absolute measure of anything if everything "scales" or is changeable.

I want the race to be set in stone, without change. It is what it is.

You run 1 mile, under 10 minutes, you get one cookie. The ONLY thing that can change is YOU the runner.

I want the dungeon to be set in stone without change, it is what it is. You can beat the boss mob at the bottom of the dungeon. He never changes, he never gets more stats, less stats, more mobs around him, or less. He is always EXACTLY the same, then ONLY thing that changes is your CHARACTER.

Same with RMT games. I want the game to be what it is, all the time, set in stone. The Mobs give the xp they give, the NEVER give any different amount.

The WORLD doesn't change, you CHARACTER changes. Anything less feels like an IWIN button.

Ihmotepp is another example of the player that need to epic loot at the end to feel good about themselves.  Personal accomplishment does not enter into the equation.  If the new shiny is not shiny enough they do not like the game.  nothing to do with content or gameplay only the loot.

Originally posted by Horusra

Ihmotepp is another example of the player that need to epic loot at the end to feel good about themselves.  Personal accomplishment does not enter into the equation.  If the new shiny is not shiny enough they do not like the game.  nothing to do with content or gameplay only the loot.

I don't understand the reference to "epic loot" which is mentioned pretty much no where in this thread.

I"m perfectly fine with games that have NO loot.

I enjoyed City of Heroes and thought that was fun, not having loot to worry about.

What I did not like about CoH was the scaling dungeons which felt like "Iwin" buttons.

but as stated in your last post all you care about is the reward from running the mile.  Not the accomplishment of finishing the mile faster than you did before.  You want a better reward.  Thus the loot is all that matters.

Originally posted by Horusra

but as stated in your last post all you care about is the reward from running the mile.  Not the accomplishment of finishing the mile faster than you did before.  You want a better reward.  Thus the loot is all that matters.

Then why would I like a game such as City of Heroes which has no loot?

The only thing I did NOT like about that game was the scaling dungeons. It takes away the challenge of the game.

But again, there's no loot in CoH. No armor, no swords, no +1 mana rings, no guns that drop, none of that.

so the challenge of a non-scaling dungeon is out leveling the dungeon and coming back to clean it out without sweating?  You have a weird sense of challenge.  Do you like beating up people in comas?  They can not fight back against your "level" either.

Scaling is usually coupled with randomization. making each encounter different, this includes most times, the lay out of the dungeon.

Its one of the oldest techniques. Its MMO players that insist on single solution encounters, most notably, raiders.

Originally posted by Horusra

so the challenge of a non-scaling dungeon is out leveling the dungeon and coming back to clean it out without sweating?  You have a weird sense of challenge.  Do you like beating up people in comas?  They can not fight back against your "level" either.

Actually, I'm not so weird. I believe WoW, the biggest game on the planet works this way too. Do all the dungeons in WoW scale in difficulty?

All "rpgs' are about progression.

If you don't get more powerful, where's the progression?

You go from killing a storm trooper to killing Darth Vader.

You go from killing a goblin, to killing a Dragon.

You go from a white belt, to a black belt.

You go from private to a general.

If the Storm Trooper "scales" then how is he any different than Darth Vader?

Originally posted by Mrbloodworth

 

Scaling is usually coupled with randomization. making each encounter different, this includes most times, the lay out of the dungeon.

 

Its one of the oldest techniques. Its MMO players that insist on single solution encounters, most notably, raiders.

 

Actually randomization and scaling have nothing to do with one another.

"Scaling" means changing the difficulty.

Randomization means changing the layout of the dungeon, or where the Mobs are located.

You can have both together, or each separately, but they are certainly not the same thing.

I have no problem with randomization. It does not artifically change the difficulty in any way.

I can't comment on what raiders do, I don't enjoy raiding.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by Horusra

so the challenge of a non-scaling dungeon is out leveling the dungeon and coming back to clean it out without sweating?  You have a weird sense of challenge.  Do you like beating up people in comas?  They can not fight back against your "level" either.

 

Actually, I'm not so weird. I believe WoW, the biggest game on the planet works this way too. Do all the dungeons in WoW scale in difficulty?

All "rpgs' are about progression.

If you don't get more powerful, where's the progression?

You go from killing a storm trooper to killing Darth Vader.

You go from killing a goblin, to killing a Dragon.

You go from a white belt, to a black belt.

You go from private to a general.

If the Storm Trooper "scales" then how is he any different than Darth Vader?

All MMO's (even single player RPG's)  have always been based in a sliding scale. You just noticed?

At level 80 i get no challenge from defeating the level 7-14 instances in WoW.  Now if they scaled with my level that would be fun and epic.  That would be the challenge.  As it is if they do not scale why would I go back to do a dungeon that holds no challenge for me.  As per your example it is like an olympic runner going back to elementary school to beat kids at track and he calls that "challenge".

Originally posted by Mrbloodworth

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by Horusra

so the challenge of a non-scaling dungeon is out leveling the dungeon and coming back to clean it out without sweating?  You have a weird sense of challenge.  Do you like beating up people in comas?  They can not fight back against your "level" either.

 

Actually, I'm not so weird. I believe WoW, the biggest game on the planet works this way too. Do all the dungeons in WoW scale in difficulty?

All "rpgs' are about progression.

If you don't get more powerful, where's the progression?

You go from killing a storm trooper to killing Darth Vader.

You go from killing a goblin, to killing a Dragon.

You go from a white belt, to a black belt.

You go from private to a general.

If the Storm Trooper "scales" then how is he any different than Darth Vader?

All MMO's (even single player RPG's)  have always been based in a sliding scale. You just noticed?

 

I didn't get the memo on that! :D

Geez, people, please stop the convoluted analogies with cookies and what not, this serves no purpose.

There is a bunch of crybabies that suffer from a sickness of the mind I think.

Scalability and RMT will not detract from creating a fun gameplay if used properly. As in a lot of things on this earth, it is not the existence of tools that is the main problem, but how those tools are used.

Here, people like to dramatize by exagerating and putting forth examples of bad uses of some tools in games, while such bad uses have yet to come. You know what, I prefer to trust game designers to actually show they know their trade and are able to mix and match all gameplay elements to make for a fun playing experience.

Exemple of scaling I have seen in DDO: now on normal and hard, the quest scales according to party size. This is good news, since it adds flexibility to players that dont want the hassle of creating a party, or waiting forever for others to join, etc. On the other hand, yes it makes it real easy to solo said quests, especially for a full tweaked toon that has received loads of hand my downs from previous toons. BUT, if you want real challenge, you can do the quest on elite. No scaling on elite. You will have all the challenge you want. And raids do not scale according to party size for your info. While not perfect, this is great because it permits for a vast majority of players to play the game the way they like to play it. The game is fun for more people, more people will play it and recommand it, this will attract more people, bring more revenue, and ensure the game continue to thrive. What is wrong with that? And all this time, the uber players can still have their challenge by doing stuff on elite difficulty.

Exemple of RMT I have seen in DDO: You can buy hair dye! You can buy bags! You can buy crappy equipment! Yea! You can also buy +1 and +2 tomes, this is serious tweaking, but it just speeds up things, any serious player can eventually get +2 tomes for his toons by playing normally.You can buy XP and loot bonus potions. Well, what can I say, it is up to everybody to decide if they want to shorten the time it takes to cap. I have never bought such potions and scoffed when I saw guildies use some. Why? I play to pass time, to have fun. Whats the hurry to cap a toon when I already have 6 other capped toons and cannot keep up doing the raids on all of them every 3 days? Whats the hurry to get to cap as fast as possible? This is all in the mind of the player. If you dont have fun playing your toon and its a torture every minute your toon is not capped, might I suggest you change game? There is no challenge in leveling, its just a long grind. If some people want to shorten it with real money, its their decision. It does not remove you any of your accomplishments if others use shortcuts. And if you think its the easy button and should be avoided, guess what? Dont use them. It is really all simple.

People, please stop crying over hypothetical bad use of tools! Of course, some games will make a bad use out of them, just dont buy them....

Ihmotepp, I'd really suggest that you go back and look at each thread you have started regarding the 'challenge' and 'reward' in MMOs over the past few months. Read each one over and keep an open mind toward the responses. I think the biggest issue you have is that you don't understand the reasons why you yourself play MMOs. You say it isn't about reward but about the challenge, but each time you explain your stance, you explain how it is the reward you personally get - especially when compared to another person's rewards - that is important to you.

I think once you understand why it is that you play MMOs, you will find a lot of your questions and concerns will already be answered for you.

Originally posted by FreddyNoNose

Originally posted by Mrbloodworth

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by Horusra

so the challenge of a non-scaling dungeon is out leveling the dungeon and coming back to clean it out without sweating?  You have a weird sense of challenge.  Do you like beating up people in comas?  They can not fight back against your "level" either.

 

Actually, I'm not so weird. I believe WoW, the biggest game on the planet works this way too. Do all the dungeons in WoW scale in difficulty?

All "rpgs' are about progression.

If you don't get more powerful, where's the progression?

You go from killing a storm trooper to killing Darth Vader.

You go from killing a goblin, to killing a Dragon.

You go from a white belt, to a black belt.

You go from private to a general.

If the Storm Trooper "scales" then how is he any different than Darth Vader?

All MMO's (even single player RPG's)  have always been based in a sliding scale. You just noticed?

 

 

I didn't get the memo on that! :D

Very little difference in a pig at level 40, then one at level 10. Its just more numbers that increased when yours did. Some of the TACTICS may change... but hit points and power are all on a sliding scale. Players are unlikely to allways be in a one to one frame however.

Originally posted by Horusra

Ihmotepp is another example of the player that need to epic loot at the end to feel good about themselves.  Personal accomplishment does not enter into the equation.  If the new shiny is not shiny enough they do not like the game.  nothing to do with content or gameplay only the loot.

And there is nothing wrong with it. Games is designed to entertain and of course it needs to make players feel good.

Personal accomplishment is just ONE of the ways, and obviously NOT the only way as psychologists will tell you.

Originally posted by dopplemmo

Geez, people, please stop the convoluted analogies with cookies and what not, this serves no purpose.

There is a bunch of crybabies that suffer from a sickness of the mind I think.

Scalability and RMT will not detract from creating a fun gameplay if used properly. As in a lot of things on this earth, it is not the existence of tools that is the main problem, but how those tools are used.

Here, people like to dramatize by exagerating and putting forth examples of bad uses of some tools in games, while such bad uses have yet to come. You know what, I prefer to trust game designers to actually show they know their trade and are able to mix and match all gameplay elements to make for a fun playing experience.

Exemple of scaling I have seen in DDO: now on normal and hard, the quest scales according to party size. This is good news, since it adds flexibility to players that dont want the hassle of creating a party, or waiting forever for others to join, etc. On the other hand, yes it makes it real easy to solo said quests, especially for a full tweaked toon that has received loads of hand my downs from previous toons. BUT, if you want real challenge, you can do the quest on elite. No scaling on elite. You will have all the challenge you want. And raids do not scale according to party size for your info. While not perfect, this is great because it permits for a vast majority of players to play the game the way they like to play it. The game is fun for more people, more people will play it and recommand it, this will attract more people, bring more revenue, and ensure the game continue to thrive. What is wrong with that? And all this time, the uber players can still have their challenge by doing stuff on elite difficulty.

Exemple of RMT I have seen in DDO: You can buy hair dye! You can buy bags! You can buy crappy equipment! Yea! You can also buy +1 and +2 tomes, this is serious tweaking, but it just speeds up things, any serious player can eventually get +2 tomes for his toons by playing normally.You can buy XP and loot bonus potions. Well, what can I say, it is up to everybody to decide if they want to shorten the time it takes to cap. I have never bought such potions and scoffed when I saw guildies use some. Why? I play to pass time, to have fun. Whats the hurry to cap a toon when I already have 6 other capped toons and cannot keep up doing the raids on all of them every 3 days? Whats the hurry to get to cap as fast as possible? This is all in the mind of the player. If you dont have fun playing your toon and its a torture every minute your toon is not capped, might I suggest you change game? There is no challenge in leveling, its just a long grind. If some people want to shorten it with real money, its their decision. It does not remove you any of your accomplishments if others use shortcuts. And if you think its the easy button and should be avoided, guess what? Dont use them. It is really all simple.

People, please stop crying over hypothetical bad use of tools! Of course, some games will make a bad use out of them, just dont buy them....

All you've done is state what you find fun in a game.

I don't want developers to stop making games you find fun.

I'm glad you enjoyed DDO.

I played DDO, and I did not like the scaling dungeons, I thought they made the game less fun.

I also do not like the RMT, such as buying bags. I think that makes the game less fun.

It's ok for different people to like differeent games. Why would you tell me I"m wrong for not likeing the same kind of game you do?

Originally posted by LynxJSA

Ihmotepp, I'd really suggest that you go back and look at each thread you have started regarding the 'challenge' and 'reward' in MMOs over the past few months. Read each one over and keep an open mind toward the responses. I think the biggest issue you have is that you don't understand the reasons why you yourself play MMOs. You say it isn't about reward but about the challenge, but each time you explain your stance, you explain how it is the reward you personally get - especially when compared to another person's rewards - that is important to you.

I think once you understand why it is that you play MMOs, you will find a lot of your questions and concerns will already be answered for you.

IMO, you are only capable of seeing things from your own perspective, and you project that perspective on to me.

I"ve explained my position a million times to you, and you constantly turn it around to what you like games to be, and look at it from that perspective, not mine. 

I willl tell you I want a challenge, you will ignore that and say YOu Only Want Phat Lewts! 

I can explain till I"m blue in the face that No, I'm not interested in phat lewts. and you will say, no when you say challenge, you MUST mean Phat Lewts, because all I understnd is phat lewts.

We can't really communicate if you say, yes, you said RED, but I"m going to belive that means blue, because you don't understand waht RED means.

Dude, I understand what I'm saying, and what I want, you refuse to listen.

There are so many flaws in your analogy.  I'm not even going to get into f2p microtransaction, they're not what I call rmt.  In player to player rmt, the fact of the matter is the people don't spend much if any money while leveling their characters.  They might buy some gold to stock up on reagents, but only the truly hardcore rmters are going to actually buy gear during the leveling process.  So for your analogy, the fact is that most player *do* run your little race track and improve their character on their own.

RMT usually hits its stride in the end game.  People want to buy the uber gear that for whatever reason they can't get.  They are no longer leveling or improving the play of their character, they are simply improving their character's stats for end game content or pvp.  Now, you could throw an entirely different analogy/argument for that situation.  But the realistic use of rmt essentially nullifies your argument.  You, and everyone else, are free to level your character and completely learn it before even considering participating in rmt.  Only a fool would buy gear they can only use for 5-10 levels.