Originally posted by Horusra

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by Horusra

Pro team sports are about paying the cash to put the team together that beats the under funded team.  The Bad News Bear teams are very very rare and are the exception not the rule.
 

Huge exaggeration. The game still has to be played. The trophy isn't automatically awarded to the team with the highest payroll.

You know nothing of sports if you think the highest payroll is anything like a guarantee of victory.

 

It is a hugh exaggeration to say you can get the skill on your team without the cash to buy it.  Yankees anyone.

The Yankees don't win every year. They didn't win last year.

They still have to play the game.

Originally posted by Horusra

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by Papadam

Ok lets put it this way:

I pay tax so the police can stop drug dealers, I dont pay tax so the police can sell drugs instead...

 

That is a very good analogy.

 

Good till a government makes drugs legal to collect the tax revenue from them.  Aka...RMT.

What he said, and then the bottom falls out of Drug dealing and Gold selling.
 

Originally posted by Kyleran

There are many ways to implement RMT, some more benign than others. 

Fluff pets are no concern to me, but if you want to see what people are really afraid of, go play Runes of Magic.  Its what WOW could have been if they had designed it around an RMT model.

And ROM isn't the worst offender, at least there everything you can buy can be obtained by hard work in the game, there are some RMT games where that isn't true and you can only get certain game impacting gear/potions/upgrades by purchasing from the cash shop.

Ultimately, I think most MMORPG's will evolve into sort of a cable-TV model, where you get the basic game (channels) for a set monthly fee, and then they'll be all sorts of extras you can add (like HBO, Showtime) for perhaps an addition to the basic feel coupled with one-off deals (Pay per view) in cash shops.

Sure, some folks will quit playing MMO's, but for the most part the customer market base will accept these changes.

Fact of the matter is, MMORPG's are costing more and more to make (some are rumored to be up in the 150M range now) and companies are exploring ways to ensure they recoup their investment.

Ultimately, they will adopt a payment model that maximizes revenues, because that's why they make games.

Your first sentence is what I was on my way to come back and edit my post to include.
 

As far as WOW adding "fluff pets" or any game for that matter I am really not opposed to it.  But when it comes down to it other things are generally a problem for me.

Another poster turned this clearly into a war with those for RMT facing off against those against it.  And his statement clearly shows while he attacks those against it he clearly is of the other class he mentions.  And I say that because I am against RMT but I certainly don't qualify as what you claim.  I've played MMO's since 1993 and I can say I've never been at the top of any game I've played.  Why?  Well to do that with the design of mmo's you'd have to have absolutely no life outside of the game and I refuse to ever do that.

My beef is not with the have's nor the have not's but with paying a premium sub fee for a game I payed a price comparable to that of off-line pc and console games and having advertisements shoved in my face besides wether by gold farmers or the company itself.

I've played a few games that had horrible gold spamming and it was certainly a negative luckily most of my mmo choices were very proactive and effective in dealing with it.  And I also am aware as we all should be that it is only a matter of time before a game is created that is near impossible to progress in without using RMT's (including a subscription fee) if there isn't one out already.

I think the point again though is that I am going to argue against any company using resources to work on something I know I will have no interest in.  I personally don't feel this move will drive me away from mmo's but it will insure for these companies that they will most likely not see my money nothing more nothing less.

If I recall correctly in EQ's peak they created servers that costed more than the normal servers for celebrities who played and I have no problem with it.  If there is a market to serve I'm not opposed to them serving it but again I'm not that market so I like games the way I see them and just don't see me going much further than what I have.

Originally posted by Horusra

It is about people that have more time that money complaining that they will no longer be at the top of the game.  Their fun is based on being better than others in a video game.  Thus if someone with less time can come in and buy something that they would once have grinded 20 hours to get and show off to others they are mad.  they will try to hide it as something else, but they are worried they will lose their top spot in MMO's.

I agree 100%, the problem is NOT RMT, its the kiddies that voice out crying because they cant afford RMT items BUT can spend HUGE amounts of time behind their puters playing a video game. Then there are those of us that actually have jobs and are financially secure, me and the circle of friends i play with will support RMT 110% and WE WILL continue to spend money in order to encourage companies to continue selling in game items!

And YES gold farming would stop if gold was sold directly by the game, character's being sold, ingame grinding sevices would stop if companies started selling THEIR items for real cash and WE WOULD continue to purchase for sure!

Hell my self alone have spent more on virtual items than what most people make per year in salary! and if i added up what my buddies and I all spend together it would be damn close to a 7 digit figure!

So me the team that pays minimums to all their players and wins, then I will give your idea that money is not needed to buy the skill to win some support.  Even college sports uses scholarships and prestige to get the skill over other schools.  As I stated before the Bad News Bears just does not exist in professional or even college sports.  Only in a high school setting where you can not really buy or get players from other areas to play for you.  You are stuck with what you get in your area. 

Originally posted by Horusra

So me the team that pays minimums to all their players and wins, then I will give your idea that money is not needed to buy the skill to win some support.  Even college sports uses scholarships and prestige to get the skill over other schools.  As I stated before the Bad News Bears just does not exist in professional or even college sports.  Only in a high school setting where you can not really buy or get players from other areas to play for you.  You are stuck with what you get in your area. 

Agree except the high school part. Scouts will promise ALOT to the best high school players through scholarships, and other perks to have them on their team. Then, will get 'donations' from wealthy supporters of those college teams for better training equipment, better coaches etc.

It's all money oriented, and anyone who thinks it isn't, really does not understand how the world works.

Originally posted by Horusra

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by Yamota

It will create division between so called premium members, who can spend alot of money, and normal players that spend only the subscription feel. The premium members will then get the upper hand, not for anything done in game, but rather depending on the size of their RL wallet.

I dont know about you but when I play a computer game I dont want the outcome be decided on who has spent more money on the game but rather the skills, and time spent, of the people involved.

In other words - I don't want Bill Gates winning The Indy 500 or the Olympic marathon because he's the richest man on the planet.

Correct, I want the one with most skills to do that. Indy 500 is an unfourtunate example because in that sport the hardware makes a huge difference and hence money is a big factor. But if you take a sport like tennis, football then 99% of the outcome is based on the players skills and not their equipment.

Pro team sports are about paying the cash to put the team together that beats the under funded team.  The Bad News Bear teams are very very rare and are the exception not the rule.
 

You pay big money for the players, not for their equipment. And it is the skills of the players that matters, not how much money you spend on the players.

Ofcourse equipment and facilities cost money but the deciding factor is still the skills of the players.

I meant most of your high schools can not go out and get players to play for them.  A private high school can, but a public high school can not offer middle/junior high school players money to come to their schools.

Subscriptions and expansion packs are about adding content to the game world. People are paying, so the world expands around them.

RMT shops are about removing content from the game world. People are paying, so that certain artificial elements introduced in the world are removed (exp grind, cash grind, item or other collection grind). You now pay to skip the dungeon and the group that would accompany you there and buy the sword from the cash shop.

P2P games were always about the world that kept you interested and the money would go towards making it grander, diversifying it, enlarging the journey.

RMT games were about removing all the artificial obstacles placed in the game world to make the journey tedious, unless the cash shop items were used. It is basically a downgraded game design bringing it to P2P standards via the RMT shop.

P2P games with RMT on top feature the worst of the two worlds. You pay for an interesting and ever expanding world, instead you get a downgraded version that needs the shop to come up to the same standards. How downgraded, depends on the balance the company wants to achieve between alienating the P2P purists while moving as much as possible towards a RMT based design.

Originally posted by huntard

Originally posted by Horusra

It is about people that have more time that money complaining that they will no longer be at the top of the game.  Their fun is based on being better than others in a video game.  Thus if someone with less time can come in and buy something that they would once have grinded 20 hours to get and show off to others they are mad.  they will try to hide it as something else, but they are worried they will lose their top spot in MMO's.

I agree 100%, the problem is NOT RMT, its the kiddies that voice out crying because they cant afford RMT items BUT can spend HUGE amounts of time behind their puters playing a video game. Then there are those of us that actually have jobs and are financially secure, me and the circle of friends i play with will support RMT 110% and WE WILL continue to spend money in order to encourage companies to continue selling in game items!

And YES gold farming would stop if gold was sold directly by the game, character's being sold, ingame grinding sevices would stop if companies started selling THEIR items for real cash and WE WOULD continue to purchase for sure!

Hell my self alone have spent more on virtual items than what most people make per year in salary! and if i added up what my buddies and I all spend together it would be damn close to a 7 digit figure!

 

 

You know what I don't begrudge you and your friends the right to do that as I think I clearly illustrated in my post.  Your view seems to assume every one has the desire to chest beat like you and those you want to denegrate.  We just don't want adds or even opinions like your thrown in our faces if we are paying for the game in the first place.

You make it clear that again you are just the other side of that coin and I don't particularly care for the people you mentioned befores attitude any more than I do yours.  The problem is they already exist and have to for the games I want to play I would prefer not to also have to deal with the attitude of your argument.

 The spoiled kid/ rich guy who spent no actual time earning anything and then often times doesn't even know what in the hell he's doing since he has not played enough to know how to play.

In certain parts of your post you start to actually make alot of it make sense until of course you bring up the next social and economic phenomenon we will have to deal with and that's bailing out the people who claim "video game addiction" and come crying to the taxpayers to bail them out of debt because they are in ruins since "they alone have spent more on virtual items than what most people make per year in salary!".

Originally posted by Horusra

So me the team that pays minimums to all their players and wins, then I will give your idea that money is not needed to buy the skill to win some support.  Even college sports uses scholarships and prestige to get the skill over other schools.  As I stated before the Bad News Bears just does not exist in professional or even college sports.  Only in a high school setting where you can not really buy or get players from other areas to play for you.  You are stuck with what you get in your area. 

You are not the team, you are the player. It is very possible for a player coming from a poor background to be a world class player. Actually that is more common than someone coming from a rich background.

Originally posted by Horusra

Where as now in games only those with crap loads of time can access all the content instead of people with more cash able to access more content.  Face it.  RMT is not worse or better for your limiting content than using time to limit it.  The market is moving away from the time model because there are not enough unemployeed or people with part time jobs to make them enough money.  Instead they are moving to the real market which is casual players with more cash and the desire to see all the content of a game.  Hummm...who would I sell to?

Are you even reading what you type? This is the most stupid thing I have ever heard. You can't possibly be serious. These are games and they are meant to be played for fun. If you do not have time to play a game then don't play it. Buying your way through a game meant to be played isn't accessing content, that is a foolish thing to write.

RMT isn't giving you access to "content" if you aren't even playing the game to get items. You want a digital store where you can play dress up on a digital character not a game. I want games and if you do too, you will not support RMT in games. I will only give my money to devs that still produce games not digital stores. If they all go the route of RMT, I am gone. ALL items should be obtained with in game methods. There are plenty of other ways to make extra money that doesn't affect game play like sever transfers, name changes, advertisements on logon screens etc.

Edit: If you have a problem with the length of time a game requires for you personally to enjoy it, wise up and stop playing it. Play games that you have time to enjoy. Your argument is laughable and you need to step back and think about why you play games to begin with.

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by Horusra

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by Yamota

It will create division between so called premium members, who can spend alot of money, and normal players that spend only the subscription feel. The premium members will then get the upper hand, not for anything done in game, but rather depending on the size of their RL wallet.

I dont know about you but when I play a computer game I dont want the outcome be decided on who has spent more money on the game but rather the skills, and time spent, of the people involved.

In other words - I don't want Bill Gates winning The Indy 500 or the Olympic marathon because he's the richest man on the planet.

Correct, I want the one with most skills to do that. Indy 500 is an unfourtunate example because in that sport the hardware makes a huge difference and hence money is a big factor. But if you take a sport like tennis, football then 99% of the outcome is based on the players skills and not their equipment.

Pro team sports are about paying the cash to put the team together that beats the under funded team.  The Bad News Bear teams are very very rare and are the exception not the rule.
 

You pay big money for the players, not for their equipment. And it is the skills of the players that matters, not how much money you spend on the players.

Ofcourse equipment and facilities cost money but the deciding factor is still the skills of the players.

But skill costs money.  If I am good at X I will not go for the lowest price.  I will make you pay through the nose for me.  So skill has costs.  More than basic equipment.  The facilities you play in can be debated because most team like to make cities pay tax dollars for the stadiums.

Originally posted by Yamota

You pay big money for the players, not for their equipment. And it is the skills of the players that matters, not how much money you spend on the players.

Ofcourse equipment and facilities cost money but the deciding factor is still the skills of the players.

True, but having those skilled players will cost you more money to have on your team. That's why there are contract negotiations.

So, the money does directly affect who you will have on your team, and therefor increase the % of winning because of players with better skills.

Originally posted by Horusra

Where as now in games only those with crap loads of time can access all the content instead of people with more cash able to access more content.  Face it.  RMT is not worse or better for your limiting content than using time to limit it.  The market is moving away from the time model because there are not enough unemployeed or people with part time jobs to make them enough money.  Instead they are moving to the real market which is casual players with more cash and the desire to see all the content of a game.  Hummm...who would I sell to?

This is all assuming that time is the only factor and not player skills. If RMTs allows you to get bonus, otherwise not available to other people, then it allows someone who has less skills to beat someone with greater skills and thus the outcome is based on RL money and not skills.

I want, regardless of game, that the most skilled person wins and not the one with the biggest wallet.

Originally posted by whisperwynd

Originally posted by Yamota

You pay big money for the players, not for their equipment. And it is the skills of the players that matters, not how much money you spend on the players.

Ofcourse equipment and facilities cost money but the deciding factor is still the skills of the players.

 

True, but having those skilled players will cost you more money to have on your team. That's why there are conbtracts negotiations.

So, the money does directly affect who you will have on your team, and therefor increase the % of winning because of players with better skills.

You are seeing it in the wrong context. In MMORPGs you are not the team, that would be a guild or clan or whatever, but rather you are the player.

Originally posted by Xasapis

Subscriptions and expansion packs are about adding content to the game world. People are paying, so the world expands around them.

RMT shops are about removing content from the game world. People are paying, so that certain artificial elements introduced in the world are removed (exp grind, cash grind, item or other collection grind). You now pay to skip the dungeon and the group that would accompany you there and buy the sword from the cash shop.

P2P games were always about the world that kept you interested and the money would go towards making it grander, diversifying it, enlarging the journey.

RMT games were about removing all the artificial obstacles placed in the game world to make the journey tedious, unless the cash shop items were used. It is basically a downgraded game design bringing it to P2P standards via the RMT shop.

P2P games with RMT on top feature the worst of the two worlds. You pay for an interesting and ever expanding world, instead you get a downgraded version that needs the shop to come up to the same standards. How downgraded, depends on the balance the company wants to achieve between alienating the P2P purists while moving as much as possible towards a RMT based design.

You assume that that sword will be sold in the store.  What game that currently has RMT sells the same items you would get from doing an instance?  All your anger at the RMT is based on the assumption that it leads to something.  This is the same argument that people use against making Marijuana legal because it will lead to LCD, Cocaine, etc. being legal.  You make an assumption that a game will not fail if it removes all the carrots from the sticks.

Originally posted by qombi

Originally posted by Horusra

Where as now in games only those with crap loads of time can access all the content instead of people with more cash able to access more content.  Face it.  RMT is not worse or better for your limiting content than using time to limit it.  The market is moving away from the time model because there are not enough unemployeed or people with part time jobs to make them enough money.  Instead they are moving to the real market which is casual players with more cash and the desire to see all the content of a game.  Hummm...who would I sell to?

 

Are you even reading what you type? This is the most stupid thing I have ever heard. You can't possibly be serious. These are games and they are meant to be played for fun. If you do not have time to play a game then don't play it. Buying your way through a game meant to be played isn't accessing content, that is a foolish thing to write.

RMT isn't giving you access to "content" if you aren't even playing the game to get items. You want a digital store where you can play dress up on a digital character not a game. I want games and if you do too, you will not support RMT in games. I will only give my money to devs that still produce games not digital stores. If they all go the route of RMT, I am gone. ALL items should be obtained with in game methods. There are plenty of other ways to make extra money that doesn't affect game play like sever transfers, name changes, advertisements on logon screens etc.

QFE, anyone who thinks people have a problem with RMT because they can't afford it is delusional. It seems they want an excuse to buy their achievements rather than earn them like everyone else. Such a pathetic and idiotic thing to assume.

How can such a person afford 50 dollars for a game and 15 dollars a month but not 10 for a pet rofl?

Originally posted by Horusra

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by Yamota

It will create division between so called premium members, who can spend alot of money, and normal players that spend only the subscription feel. The premium members will then get the upper hand, not for anything done in game, but rather depending on the size of their RL wallet.

I dont know about you but when I play a computer game I dont want the outcome be decided on who has spent more money on the game but rather the skills, and time spent, of the people involved.

In other words - I don't want Bill Gates winning The Indy 500 or the Olympic marathon because he's the richest man on the planet.

Correct, I want the one with most skills to do that. Indy 500 is an unfourtunate example because in that sport the hardware makes a huge difference and hence money is a big factor. But if you take a sport like tennis, football then 99% of the outcome is based on the players skills and not their equipment.

Pro team sports are about paying the cash to put the team together that beats the under funded team.  The Bad News Bear teams are very very rare and are the exception not the rule.
 

The last seven world series winners would beg to differ.  Until of course my boys restored order to the world.  Go Yankees!

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by whisperwynd

Originally posted by Yamota

You pay big money for the players, not for their equipment. And it is the skills of the players that matters, not how much money you spend on the players.

Ofcourse equipment and facilities cost money but the deciding factor is still the skills of the players.

 

True, but having those skilled players will cost you more money to have on your team. That's why there are conbtracts negotiations.

So, the money does directly affect who you will have on your team, and therefor increase the % of winning because of players with better skills.

 

You are seeing it in the wrong context. In MMORPGs you are not the team, that would be a guild or clan or whatever, but rather you are the player.

I think you just fail to see that the comparison was bad.

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by Horusra

Where as now in games only those with crap loads of time can access all the content instead of people with more cash able to access more content.  Face it.  RMT is not worse or better for your limiting content than using time to limit it.  The market is moving away from the time model because there are not enough unemployeed or people with part time jobs to make them enough money.  Instead they are moving to the real market which is casual players with more cash and the desire to see all the content of a game.  Hummm...who would I sell to?

This is all assuming that time is the only factor and not player skills. If RMTs allows you to get bonus, otherwise not available to other people, then it allows someone who has less skills to beat someone with greater skills and thus the outcome is based on RL money and not skills.

I want, regardless of game, that the most skilled person wins and not the one with the biggest wallet.

You assume that items will be sold that allow one to beat others with greater skill.  If the Blizzard vanity pets rise up and squash your character then yes there is a problem.  The slippery slope argument is a very bad argument because you assume something will happen.  Along the same lines lets fight about why tax dollars should not be spent in California because it is going to fall into the ocean one day and it is a slipper slope to build up to much there.  How can you debate something that is not happening, not proposed to happen, only something that might happen the way you describe it.  All you can really discuss is if selling vanity pets is destroying WoW (for example).
 

Originally posted by Horusra

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by whisperwynd

Originally posted by Yamota

You pay big money for the players, not for their equipment. And it is the skills of the players that matters, not how much money you spend on the players.

Ofcourse equipment and facilities cost money but the deciding factor is still the skills of the players.

 

True, but having those skilled players will cost you more money to have on your team. That's why there are conbtracts negotiations.

So, the money does directly affect who you will have on your team, and therefor increase the % of winning because of players with better skills.

 

You are seeing it in the wrong context. In MMORPGs you are not the team, that would be a guild or clan or whatever, but rather you are the player.

 

I think you just fail to see that the comparison was bad.

No, it is a very simple and straightforward comparison. But let me break it down for you.

MMORPGs is a game and you are a player.

Football is a game and you are a player.

In Football your skills is the deciding factor on who wins (or rather the collective skills of everyone in your team since it is a team sport but that is beside the point). Gaining skills takes talent, time and to some extent money (equipment and faclity to practice at)

In MMORPGs with subscription model your skills as a player decide who wins. Your skills are then both your character skills and your RL playing skills since it is a virtual world. Gaining skills takes talent, time and to some extent money (gaming rig, internet connection).

In MMORPGs with RMTs skills can be bought in the shop in the form of exp potions, equipment that enhance your stats and etc. So there the deciding factor is how much you RL money you spend in the shop.

This ofcourse varies between different RMTs but the bottom line is that in RMTs you pay to advance your character where as in MMORPGs you play to advance your character.

ahhh one of the lurkers speaks .....i have but one question to the RMT fans

Why do you want to bring money into your videogame world...?

I come to my favortie MMO to forget about money ,IRA's ,taxes ,and all the other nonsense that the "Real World" has in it .

Why do we have to infect our fantasy with reality ...i always thought the point of this was to live a second life so to speak where we got to be who we wanted and accomplish what we wanted..."By the Sweat of our Brow..and the Strength of our Backs"

Originally posted by Horusra

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by whisperwynd

Originally posted by Yamota

You pay big money for the players, not for their equipment. And it is the skills of the players that matters, not how much money you spend on the players.

Ofcourse equipment and facilities cost money but the deciding factor is still the skills of the players.

 

True, but having those skilled players will cost you more money to have on your team. That's why there are conbtracts negotiations.

So, the money does directly affect who you will have on your team, and therefor increase the % of winning because of players with better skills.

 

You are seeing it in the wrong context. In MMORPGs you are not the team, that would be a guild or clan or whatever, but rather you are the player.

 

I think you just fail to see that the comparison was bad.

Exactly, I just ran with said analogy. As a player, i am not being paid play, I am playing for the priviledge to be there, ie. the FAN. I will shout and name call the umpire for making a bad call or the team manager for making a dumbass decision. Ultimately, however, the choice is mine whether or not to continually support this team or change for another because of bad decision making IMO.

And I completely understand your pov, but RMTs for vanity items just doesn't upset me in the least

Originally posted by Horusra

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by Horusra

Where as now in games only those with crap loads of time can access all the content instead of people with more cash able to access more content.  Face it.  RMT is not worse or better for your limiting content than using time to limit it.  The market is moving away from the time model because there are not enough unemployeed or people with part time jobs to make them enough money.  Instead they are moving to the real market which is casual players with more cash and the desire to see all the content of a game.  Hummm...who would I sell to?

This is all assuming that time is the only factor and not player skills. If RMTs allows you to get bonus, otherwise not available to other people, then it allows someone who has less skills to beat someone with greater skills and thus the outcome is based on RL money and not skills.

I want, regardless of game, that the most skilled person wins and not the one with the biggest wallet.

You assume that items will be sold that allow one to beat others with greater skill.  If the Blizzard vanity pets rise up and squash your character then yes there is a problem.  The slippery slope argument is a very bad argument because you assume something will happen.  Along the same lines lets fight about why tax dollars should not be spent in California because it is going to fall into the ocean one day and it is a slipper slope to build up to much there.  How can you debate something that is not happening, not proposed to happen, only something that might happen the way you describe it.  All you can really discuss is if selling vanity pets is destroying WoW (for example).
 

I am not talking about WoWs RMTs but RMTs in general. WoWs RMT system is in its early stages where it does not affect the ability of your characters.

But it is the first step and no doubt the second step will come sooner or later.