Originally posted by MiteFiend

 

Funny that some of you get soo defensive for a game company who has yet to give you a end product.

I never said the game sucks soo bad, never play it.

My opinion is my opinion, but the fact that my credit card thru Visa only allows me to make claims against charges for 90 days, made the decision for me. I was on the fence about the game, yes. I was a concerned about the progress in the beta, yes. I was concerned that if I didn't make a decision by a date, it would be a no turning back point, yes.

I honestly don't care if you think I'm hateful, or immoral. You aren't paying my Visa bill. I have the right (yes the purchaser's right) to pull the plug on delayed products for whatever reason I choose. It could be because I'm strapped for cash, and want to spend my money on a game releasing on time vs. a game delayed. Thats my right. No one will stop me. Laws were put in place for this kind of situation, where I purchased a product, and it wasn't on time. It's not immoral, to use my rights.

If the game turns out to be the long awaited GOLD you assume it wil be, I will be playing it too. But until then, I'll keep my options open, and not corner myself, or waste my money. Some of us haven't forgotten, http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm?thread=37720&bhcp=1

Get off your high horse. Oh wait, you don't own that horse. ( Or do you, PR guy?)

Im all for your refund because you think the game is not worth it at the moment or because it hasnt been delivered in September, the latter being the main reason since they honestly havent given any explanation within a reasonable amount of time.

But what I highlighted is purely immoral and dishonest on your part and really gives away alot of your character, I dont think everyone should be entitled to Visa or any other CC because of this same reason ppl will abuse the system and for the most part dont care about their end of the deal and hide behind "I have done this, because I can as a consumer" whenever it suits their agenda. Ofc from VISA's perspective they couldnt care less with the high interest on money through credit they are more than happy to let you continue be sucked it into using money you dont have. 

You should highlight the entire sentence. I said "I could" because I wanted to play a different game that is releasing on time. Im actually not strapped for cash atm, and can't think of a game at this very moment that I intend to purchase.

But that is irrelivant, they delayed a product after I pre-ordered, so I have the right to a refund, even if it's to finance a trip to the moon. My decision on how to spend my money, is my right.

Originally posted by MiteFiend

 

Funny that some of you get soo defensive for a game company who has yet to give you a end product.

I never said the game sucks soo bad, never play it.

My opinion is my opinion, but the fact that my credit card thru Visa only allows me to make claims against charges for 90 days, made the decision for me. I was on the fence about the game, yes. I was a concerned about the progress in the beta, yes. I was concerned that if I didn't make a decision by a date, it would be a no turning back point, yes.

I honestly don't care if you think I'm hateful, or immoral. You aren't paying my Visa bill. I have the right (yes the purchaser's right) to pull the plug on delayed products for whatever reason I choose. It could be because I'm strapped for cash, and want to spend my money on a game releasing on time vs. a game delayed. Thats my right. No one will stop me. Laws were put in place for this kind of situation, where I purchased a product, and it wasn't on time. It's not immoral, to use my rights.

If the game turns out to be the long awaited GOLD you assume it wil be, I will be playing it too. But until then, I'll keep my options open, and not corner myself, or waste my money. Some of us haven't forgotten, http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm?thread=37720&bhcp=1

Get off your high horse. Oh wait, you don't own that horse. ( Or do you, PR guy?)

Very well put. Noone can for sure say that this game wont be another Mourning so to act on the side of caution is probably a sensible thing.

Originally posted by mo0rbid

Originally posted by apple01

 

You are driven by hate, the hate only a mentally sick man can have. 

What the fuck is up with you?

Yeah I wonder how someone can get so riled up and defensive for a game that they themselves didnt even create. And even if it did that kind of statements are just .... weird.

Driven by hate because you want to have a refund on your purchase? Seriously man, seek help.

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by mo0rbid

Originally posted by apple01

 

You are driven by hate, the hate only a mentally sick man can have. 

What the fuck is up with you?

 

Yeah I wonder how someone can get so riled up and defensive for a game that they themselves didnt even create. And even if it did that kind of statements are just .... weird.

Driven by hate because you want to have a refund on your purchase? Seriously man, seek help.

You may not know how many posts MiteFiend has been written in different forums. Does he want to have a refund? Not exactly. He already got a refund.

I may use a little too hard words. But as in my earlier post above, one can really wonder if he is driven by hate or just doing some negative PR work for someone else, or if I am trying to be nice, just to be too excited that he thought he was very SMART. 
 

I stated my position about my refund. Afterwords, the superfans come out of the woodwork and make negative comments about me exercising my consumer rights. I get a e-mail stating that my thread has been replyed to. So I come to check it out, and find myself defending my position numberous times. I'm definitly not driven by hate, but I will step up and defend my point of view if its argued that my actions are immoral, or as it was so kindly put, criminal.

If someone at this point asks a question about the game, pre-orders, or refunds, I will answer them honestly from my personal experience. That's not NDA breaking. Thats not a anti-PR campaign either. Apple, you seem awefully interested in this thread, but have done nothing but speak badly of my refund. I'm not the only one who got a refund, but I wanted to post that I felt my hand was forced, due to a timeframe set by my credit card company, and by the delay of the game by SV.

Once again, I never said the game is doomed or any such thing. But it doesn't meet my standards for a exceptionally high priced game, with alot of development ahead of it. I would rather bide my time, and wait on the finished product, and if it's getting positive reviews and development after the NDA is lifted, I too will purchase the game a 2nd time. I didn't spend extensive time researching the game, and finding out that they were strapped for cash, and did pre-orders to cover future development. I don't agree with that approach to game design, and it's amateur to me. Others have a different opinion, and that's fine. But I don't go around labeling people with one word, like immoral or criminal, because I don't agree with thier views.

Another month, another 10 year old gloats about his defeating the uber scammurz.

Take your money, and stop trolling Mortal Online forums. Consider using your brain before you make a purchase that you have no idea what you're getting into.

Originally posted by MiteFiend

 

I stated my position about my refund. Afterwords, the superfans come out of the woodwork and make negative comments about me exercising my consumer rights. I get a e-mail stating that my thread has been replyed to. So I come to check it out, and find myself defending my position numberous times. I'm definitly not driven by hate, but I will step up and defend my point of view if its argued that my actions are immoral, or as it was so kindly put, criminal.

If someone at this point asks a question about the game, pre-orders, or refunds, I will answer them honestly from my personal experience. That's not NDA breaking. Thats not a anti-PR campaign either. Apple, you seem awefully interested in this thread, but have done nothing but speak badly of my refund. I'm not the only one who got a refund, but I wanted to post that I felt my hand was forced, due to a timeframe set by my credit card company, and by the delay of the game by SV.

Once again, I never said the game is doomed or any such thing. But it doesn't meet my standards for a exceptionally high priced game, with alot of development ahead of it. I would rather bide my time, and wait on the finished product, and if it's getting positive reviews and development after the NDA is lifted, I too will purchase the game a 2nd time. I didn't spend extensive time researching the game, and finding out that they were strapped for cash, and did pre-orders to cover future development. I don't agree with that approach to game design, and it's amateur to me. Others have a different opinion, and that's fine. But I don't go around labeling people with one word, like immoral or criminal, because I don't agree with thier views.

Im all with you. I have read this thread and I dont see anything inflamatory or trolling that you have done.

All you are saying is that you have a right to a refund for a product not shipped. And I agree with you 100%. Preorders are no contracts where you are required to stick with to the bitter end, or whatever. You have every right to cancel a pre-order.

Atleast that is the way it has been for every other product that I have preordered. Consumers have the right to change their mind about a product they have not yet received and since MO is not released yet that is certainly the case here.

Heck some companies even offer refund for lifetime subscriptions so the side at fault here is Starvault that refuses refunds for a product not yet shipped.

Originally posted by Omali

Take your money, and stop trolling Mortal Online forums. Consider using your brain before you make a purchase that you have no idea what you're getting into.

This.

I just hope the OP won't buy the game when it's released. Too bad there's no way to keep such people out by blocking their credit card, email and personal data from the game. We don't need people who aren't even able to read a simple web site and understand what they pay for.

Originally posted by The_Korrigan

Originally posted by Omali

Take your money, and stop trolling Mortal Online forums. Consider using your brain before you make a purchase that you have no idea what you're getting into.

 

This.

I just hope the OP won't buy the game when it's released. Too bad there's no way to keep such people out by blocking their credit card, email and personal data from the game. We don't need people who aren't even able to read a simple web site and understand what they pay for.

I hope Starvault starts disputing these chargebacks. If they can convince the card companies that these people are scamming them, people like OP will be facing heavy fines.

Originally posted by The_Korrigan

Originally posted by Omali

Take your money, and stop trolling Mortal Online forums. Consider using your brain before you make a purchase that you have no idea what you're getting into.

 

This.

I just hope the OP won't buy the game when it's released. Too bad there's no way to keep such people out by blocking their credit card, email and personal data from the game. We don't need people who aren't even able to read a simple web site and understand what they pay for.

Where was it clearly and specifically specified that the pre-orders are non-refundable?

I for sure do not remember reading anything similar. That does not mean it was not there but it certainly was not clear and easily understood that refunds are not allowed.

The norm is that pre-orders are refundable, or canceable, period. Otherwise a company could keep pre-orders money, indefinetely.

It stated when you bought the game it was binding.

Star Vault is way to honest and nice when they give back money to scammers like the OP.  If it would have been up to me to deside wether to give the money back or not, I would have refused to do that. 

Originally posted by Diekfoo

It stated when you bought the game it was binding.

Star Vault is way to honest and nice when they give back money to scammers like the OP.  If it would have been up to me to deside wether to give the money back or not, I would have refused to do that. 

It was binding? What does that mean? No legit company would make a pre-order deal without a possibility to cancel it.

That is just common sense. Otherwise the game could get delayed indefinitely and they could keep your money indefinetely. The OP is not a scammer, he is using his rights as a consumer to cancel a pre-order for a product he has not yet received.

But he got access to the beta and played for some days. Then you have started to use what you bought.

 While I admire Star Vault for their honesty and their desire to publish a game that is different from the norm, they are the ones that broke the agreement when they failed to ship what they promised.  I think the OP has every right to cancel based on the breach of the promise of delivery.  It is nice that they are finally shipping what was promised in September in November and I understand delays and such BUT it is still a breach of the agreement that the OP entered into.

Originally posted by Diekfoo

But he got access to the beta and played for some days. Then you have started to use what you bought.

Uhm what? Isnt the stance of Starvault, and everybody else supporting this paid beta thing, that you are NOT paying for beta but rather for the game?

Because you are not saying that you are indeed paying for beta...

But even so, they cannot hold on to your money indefinetely, that is shady business practices. People that want out should be able to get out, it is a pre-order, not a maffia deal.

But you can only play the beta if you have bought the product.  

It is often possible to utilize the consumer rights to ones best: When a shop offers a free lottery if you buy a product, or a certain free product if you buy more than 100 dollar. Now suppose a customer makes a purchase and gets a free thing, he then uses the free thing and returns to the shop to return the product he purchased to get a refund. Sometimes the shop will agree to refund, sometimes they refuse. It is up to the merchant to take the most appropriate action.

Sometime there is a real legitimate reason for the customer, somtime he is just smart. He knows best himself. If the customer then stands in front of the shop, tells everyone that they can easily get refunded if they do as he did, he is probably a smart one. If enough people are "smart", no merchants can afford to be nice to their customers.

In contrary to MiteFiend, I believe very few, less than 1%, people claimed refund. But if he continues agitating people, there could be real consequences. Many beta testers want Star Vault to release the game in a polished state, even if this means they have to push release date to Q1 next year. It is not a big deal for any people. Beta testers get postponed their monthly payments. That is all and it is fair. But if there is risk for massive refund claims. SV might feel forced to release in Q4, even the game might need one or two months work on it. Then people like MiteFiend may be very delighted to talk about "second Darkfall". I don't know if this was the intented effects or not. This was at least the reason I reacted.
 

Originally posted by apple01

It is often possible to utilize the consumer rights to ones best: When a shop offers a free lottery if you buy a product, or a certain free product if you buy more than 100 dollar. Now suppose a customer makes a purchase and gets a free thing, he then uses the free thing and returns to the shop to return the product he purchased to get a refund. Sometimes the shop will agree to refund, sometimes they refuse. It is up to the merchant to take the most appropriate action.

If the consumer can not give the product back the free gift wasn't free at all. It is more part of a pack or set then which would mean in the case of MO paid beta.

Sometime there is a real legitimate reason for the customer, somtime he is just smart. He knows best himself. If the customer then stands in front of the shop, tells everyone that they can easily get refunded if they do as he did, he is probably a smart one. If enough people are "smart", no merchants can afford to be nice to their customers.

The "being nice to customers thing" is nothing else than marketing and nothing more than this. Its a way to make the consumer interested in the product and not a try be welfare. The aim of every business company is to earn as much money as possible, if it helps when they give the dog a bone to reach their aim then it is calculated that the dog may run away with that.

In contrary to MiteFiend, I believe very few, less than 1%, people claimed refund. But if he continues agitating people, there could be real consequences. Many beta testers want Star Vault to release the game in a polished state, even if this means they have to push release date to Q1 next year. It is not a big deal for any people. Beta testers get postponed their monthly payments. That is all and it is fair. But if there is risk for massive refund claims. SV might feel forced to release in Q4, even the game might need one or two months work on it. Then people like MiteFiend may be very delighted to talk about "second Darkfall". I don't know if this was the intented effects or not. This was at least the reason I reacted.
You don't have any proof how much people have claimed refund either. I don't see him agitating anyone, he only told about his experiences that he had with MO and its a fact that he didn't received the box that you can't deny. It is good to know that for every forum user here because in the main forum these threads will be deleted.

Even if MO fails its not the end of the world and if Star Vault is able to deliver a decent product a forum post will not stop the game. No one else than Star Vault is responsible for the release date so calm down please.

You know there is going to be a lot of games coming out over the next year,i have nothing against MO,but i think they are going to be in trouble.

Just to name a few big ones ...TERA,FFXIV,Blade n Soul[ncsoft],GuildWars,this not including many indie developers,does MO have much of a chance?

Originally posted by Wizardry

You know there is going to be a lot of games coming out over the next year,i have nothing against MO,but i think they are going to be in trouble.

Just to name a few big ones ...TERA,FFXIV,Blade n Soul[ncsoft],GuildWars,this not including many indie developers,does MO have much of a chance?

MO is not competing with those theme park games.

It has a small but devoted fanbase that are looking for a true sanbox fantasy mmo with no levels and no grinding.

Actually there are more new ppl joining MO´s boat every day.

Most of them are old-school UO fans that are disapointed with DF.

Originally posted by adrala

Originally posted by Wizardry

You know there is going to be a lot of games coming out over the next year,i have nothing against MO,but i think they are going to be in trouble.

Just to name a few big ones ...TERA,FFXIV,Blade n Soul[ncsoft],GuildWars,this not including many indie developers,does MO have much of a chance?

MO is not competing with those theme park games.

It has a small but devoted fanbase that are looking for a true sanbox fantasy mmo with no levels and no grinding.

Actually there are more new ppl joining MO´s boat every day.

Most of them are old-school UO fans that are disapointed with DF.

If they are dissapointed with DF then what makes them think MO will be any different? Both games developed by indy developers, both are full loot, both forced 1st person view, both sandbox game with skills rather than levels and both short on money (which is never a good sign).

My bet is that MO will turn out excactly like DF. I didnt at first but this whole "pay for beta" debacle and the fact that they dont allow refunds makes me think DF, or even Mourning. I.e. devs that say that this is their "dream come true" yet they do everything they can to get hold of your money (and keep it even though they havent delivered the game).

Originally posted by Yamota

If they are dissapointed with DF then what makes them think MO will be any different? Both games developed by indy developers, both are full loot, both forced 1st person view, both sandbox game with skills rather than levels and both short on money (which is never a good sign).

My bet is that MO will turn out excactly like DF. I didnt at first but this whole "pay for beta" debacle and the fact that they dont allow refunds makes me think DF, or even Mourning. I.e. devs that say that this is their "dream come true" yet they do everything they can to get hold of your money (and keep it even though they havent delivered the game).

I'm in the MO beta and I was in the DFO one. I can't talk about it because of the NDA other than what patch notes say. MO developers do not lie.

I don't expect much from MO. This is the current situation:

1) official forums are dead since beta forums started. That means, only 10.000 people are following the game.

2) forumers from 2008 have disappeared and they looked so hyped. And I was the troll. I'm still in the forums and they just left. Wonder if they will keep the guys from 2009.

3) forumers love the combat in some medieval addon, I think for half-life2, I forgot the name. They announced it in the forums in several threads and said that the combat was so good and very similar to what MO should be.  I downloaded it and played it. It's just the worst combat ever. I mean.. worse than some flash games going around. But forumers love it. And they are the ones beta testing MO.

4) These beta testers have bought the game. They are the 10.000 most die-hard MO fanatics in the planet. So don't expect any rational and objective criticism from them. They will be extremely condescent to the developers, they will forgive all shortcomings. The few that will dissent will be acused of trolling and rejected.

So no I don't expect much from this situation.

Originally posted by The_Korrigan

Originally posted by Yamota

If they are dissapointed with DF then what makes them think MO will be any different? Both games developed by indy developers, both are full loot, both forced 1st person view, both sandbox game with skills rather than levels and both short on money (which is never a good sign).

My bet is that MO will turn out excactly like DF. I didnt at first but this whole "pay for beta" debacle and the fact that they dont allow refunds makes me think DF, or even Mourning. I.e. devs that say that this is their "dream come true" yet they do everything they can to get hold of your money (and keep it even though they havent delivered the game).

 

I'm in the MO beta and I was in the DFO one. I can't talk about it because of the NDA other than what patch notes say. MO developers do not lie.

Implying that the Aventurine devs DID lie? 

I don't know, I'd say the MO devs charging actual money for people to play beta, having their first trailer pre rendered and pretending it was all in game footage, and saying they'd release what was it? last year? then last spring? then last summer? now its like, next year ? To most people who trolled Darkfall, that counts as lying.