I left LOTRO early on because of this issue. In the beginning, there weren't many solo quests once you hit 30, and finding groups at the times I played was insanely hard. Not only that, you had to find groups that were  willing to go back and redo 3 steps they'd already done to get to Step #4 which half the group wanted to get to Step #5 which the other half really wanted to do, or have a kinship that was full of willing and helpful people who didn't mind repeating content 5000 times.

This "forced grouping" cost LOTRO at least 1 subscriber (me). I'm sure it cost them many thousands in reality. Because I played a Hunter, I was even at a bigger disadvantage as being a non-desired class.

And you had all the problems of groups, and then some. Person A would leave because he got the mission he needed, and didn't want to continue, person B selected to replace him was 30 minutes on foot away... and disconnects 25 minutes later, person C chosen to replace B doesn't want to do that quest, but rather needs the previous 3 quests....

So this change is an awesome one for the average gamer who has a life outside of the game. To those who think everything must be paid for by waiting 10 hours in LFF for each mission, a big /rude to you. You can still play the game that way. I no longer would have to (and yes, it is tempting me to resub for LOTRO, because I did enjoy the game outside of the silly grouping requirements). And the game is Lord of the Ring (the ONE SOLO ;) ring).. not Fellowship All The Time.

Originally posted by GaryM

It's obvious from the upcoming Skirmish system and other developer notes that the future direction of LOTRO is scalable content, from solo player up to 12-man groups. Turbine has already stated that the upcoming Book 9 will be scalable this same way. The upcoming solo-only "super-buff" for the earlier book quests is just a band-aid so that they don't have to revisit the early content just yet, IMO.

My chief concern is that they end up going CoX on it.  Gotta admit, my eye twitches a bit when I see the word "randomized" sprinkled through the Dev logs.  Other than that, it's lookin' like I get 2 christmases, this year... 

Originally posted by Elikal 

I don't want to overly dramatize it, but if there are crucial moments in which developments at large are changing, it is this. Sorta like D-Day for Europe, this is a bit of a water margin for MMOs. Why? Simple: we have seen a huge rise in Soloability, and story is still a relatively fresh and new element in MMOs, and - at least until SWTOR hits - something not yet fully developed. An element in its infancy.

........

For good or ill, I think this is the margin of a paradigm change.

I liked your post. I wish I could express myself as good as you, but my english is not near as good.

And Ive to say that I agree with what you wrote. I believe it was the last words that caught me-  paradigm change is not something you read to often in this dark corner of the internet :) 

Originally posted by astrob0y

Originally posted by Elikal 

I don't want to overly dramatize it, but if there are crucial moments in which developments at large are changing, it is this. Sorta like D-Day for Europe, this is a bit of a water margin for MMOs. Why? Simple: we have seen a huge rise in Soloability, and story is still a relatively fresh and new element in MMOs, and - at least until SWTOR hits - something not yet fully developed. An element in its infancy.

........

For good or ill, I think this is the margin of a paradigm change.

 

I liked your post. I wish I could express myself as good as you, but my english is not near as good.

And Ive to say that I agree with what you wrote. I believe it was the last words that caught me-  paradigm change is not something you read to often in this dark corner of the internet :) 

Yeh I agree with Elikal's post as well. Shame it's gonna be buried soon by tons of mindless posts including this one.

Originally posted by Thillian

These were the last bits of group content in Lotro.

Not true there are raids in LOTRO like any other game (I assume you don't play so wonder why you are commenting) and the article clearly states that many new players are having a hard time finding groups for the book quests so what difference does it possibly make? Even if what you said was true this particular group content is not being complete because players are having a hard time finding people to even group to do the content it is just not being experienced and it is also very clear they are adding a mode that allows people to do this content it does not take away the ability to group to do the quests.

  Why is it so often that devs are villified for giving there players options?  I heard the mmo community complain about the quest locator which is a totally optional feature and even if we work on the same quest and I have it on and you don't you won't see it yet people just complained to no end when they had no expectation to use it if they chose not to.

  MMOs are the only @$$ backwards thing I can think of where people swear less is more, it's often as if people truly expect companies to continue to release Shadowbane,EQ,Ultima with a new skin on it and never actually advance the genre forward.  It's how you know there are far too many arm chair devs in the community and why sometimes one can appreciate the WOW community over those who play less commercial offerings.

This is a great move for new folks who haven't established good friends and a quality Kinship. It can be frustrating wanting to see the best content of the game, but having to LFF to find a fellowship. Most PUGs in this game are awesome by the way, but even still, sometimes you'd just rather not mess with folks you don't know.

The most fun of this game will always be playing with friends you know and trust, same as any MMO, but this game is especially that way.

Originally posted by eric_w66

I left LOTRO early on because of this issue. In the beginning, there weren't many solo quests once you hit 30, and finding groups at the times I played was insanely hard. Not only that, you had to find groups that were  willing to go back and redo 3 steps they'd already done to get to Step #4 which half the group wanted to get to Step #5 which the other half really wanted to do, or have a kinship that was full of willing and helpful people who didn't mind repeating content 5000 times.

This "forced grouping" cost LOTRO at least 1 subscriber (me). I'm sure it cost them many thousands in reality. Because I played a Hunter, I was even at a bigger disadvantage as being a non-desired class.

And you had all the problems of groups, and then some. Person A would leave because he got the mission he needed, and didn't want to continue, person B selected to replace him was 30 minutes on foot away... and disconnects 25 minutes later, person C chosen to replace B doesn't want to do that quest, but rather needs the previous 3 quests....

So this change is an awesome one for the average gamer who has a life outside of the game. To those who think everything must be paid for by waiting 10 hours in LFF for each mission, a big /rude to you. You can still play the game that way. I no longer would have to (and yes, it is tempting me to resub for LOTRO, because I did enjoy the game outside of the silly grouping requirements). And the game is Lord of the Ring (the ONE SOLO ;) ring).. not Fellowship All The Time.

 

I remember one night, I required the very end of one book, can't remember which.  Everyone else I could get required earlier chapters.  So we'd do them, and several times, people had to leave before we got the final done, and we'd have to replace them and sure enough, that person also had to do those earlier quests.  Rinse, repeat.  Frustrating.  Several hours later, I had to go, still having not finished the final chapter.

The reality is, few people have several hours to themselves to run one of the books from start to finish.  Even if you're just going through the group parts.  So, as a developer, you have to accomodate those who don't have that kind of time in order to keep them.  The only thing they could do further to encourage grouping would be to port everyone directly into the instance from anywhere; so you could set your "LFF Book 5, C5", join up and end up right there ASAP.  In and out.  No muss, no fuss.  Unfortunately, exploitation would ensue, not to mention it kinda blows the epic-ness, not having to ride up to the foreboding entrance, IMO.

So the next best option is to set up a solo option.  And it's the easiest way to go, development-wise.

Originally posted by Mrbloodworth

Originally posted by dhayes68

Originally posted by Mrbloodworth

Originally posted by dhayes68

Originally posted by Mrbloodworth

Originally posted by dhayes68

You have to wonder what they were thinking when they made an MMO that is so story-centric and story-driven (especially given the wide familiarity of the story) combined with having parts of the map delivered over time and restricted to the highest levels.  It leads to a very linear progression that stratifies the playerbase.

I wonder if this solution will accomplish what it is intended too, or will it further dilute the 'community'.

 

Every book is self contained and optional, you can leave this "path" and skip, complete, rejoin any time you want. You do not, and never have had to do them in order, ever.

And they were thinking they were going to make an awesome PVE MMO that was story based and episodic. They were right. 

 

Read my post more clearly and you'll see I'm specifically talking about the story-driven dynamic COMBINED with the parcelling out of the map over time. A strange dynamic I think specific to LoTRO in that they didn't give a whole map, then added to it, but gave only part of a whole map that many are familiar with. And also my point was that the combination of the two would lead to a stratified playerbase.

I'm not knocking your precioussss game. I was addressing the problem that the devs, obviously, in introucing the proposed solution in the article are aware of as well.

 

 

Middle earth is a big place, they are simply working their way west.... How else would they do it?

 

They could do it in a way that doesn't force players into stratified level bands across the game world. So far new lands have been for the highest level players only.  If this trend continues then as the game progresses, some of the parts of the map which should be the most dynamic (like Gondor for example) will be only for the very highest levels.  And by tying the story line to the rollout of new lands it also means as time goes on more and more players will be playing much different parts of the story at the same time which also in a way helps disjoint the player community.

 Not all of the new zones have been only for high level. Infact most of the new content in SOM is for 30 - 65.

So FAR all the new zones have been for high level. SOM hasn't launched yet. And while I'm sure there is new content across the board, the new zones themselves are for high-levels, since low-levels can't get through Moria, no?

Originally posted by Elikal

This decision is both logical and regrettable. it is regrettable, because experiencing a story in a group is way more fun and excitement than alone. What is the heroic, triumph, what is the tragedy worth, when no one is there to share the moment with you?

Maybe but not all the time.

I remember so many times in Guild Wars when the group wanted to skip the cut scenes. I also remember in DDO when going through a dungeon or quest was essentially blazing through it because the participants had already done it. Leaving me to just tag along at their fast clip.

And in LOTRO when I as still reading the last npc's quest text and everyone had already clicked and left the instance.\

I think it takes a group of like minded people to experience quests in a group and to fully take advantage of that.

This change in LOTRO will actually enable me to experience the rest of the main quest. Actually, most of it.

It's not within my personality to shout for groups. If asked I will go and will most likely enjoy it on some level depending on the group, but in the end, if there is no group available I always find something else to do with my time.

Now, this is not to say that I think all group content should be made soloable to bow to my whim. On the contrary, my attitude has always been that I will go without because that is the price I pay for not being proactive about grouping.

My thought is that this is a good thing for my playstyle but they really should enable different and interesting rewards for players who do want to group in order to encourage grouping.

It's funny that this is happening because along with the other voices on forums that asked for this, I had come out and blatantly stated that this was something that I would have liked when I spoke with Steefel at Pax.

It actually gives me a reason to subscribe which of course is probably a huge plus for Turbine as they are probably counting on people who never did the group main quests to actually join for the chance to experience the game. Still, I can't help feel that something was lost with this.

Grouping or soloing should be a decision not something that another has to endure because there is no other way.

They are revamping the older content as well. So in effect it is new content for the lower levels. All the starting areas have been redone, except the Shire I think. Lonelands is getting a revamp soon I believe. But the older content in LOTRO, for the most part, is really good I thought.  North Downs and Trollshaws are freakin awesome, Forochel is badass too. Wait till you see those mammoths.

Originally posted by Thillian

Originally posted by astrob0y

Originally posted by Elikal 

I don't want to overly dramatize it, but if there are crucial moments in which developments at large are changing, it is this. Sorta like D-Day for Europe, this is a bit of a water margin for MMOs. Why? Simple: we have seen a huge rise in Soloability, and story is still a relatively fresh and new element in MMOs, and - at least until SWTOR hits - something not yet fully developed. An element in its infancy.

........

For good or ill, I think this is the margin of a paradigm change.

 

I liked your post. I wish I could express myself as good as you, but my english is not near as good.

And Ive to say that I agree with what you wrote. I believe it was the last words that caught me-  paradigm change is not something you read to often in this dark corner of the internet :) 

 

Yeh I agree with Elikal's post as well. Shame it's gonna be buried soon by tons of mindless posts including this one.

I agree too, as far as other MMOs go, but Lotro is a different kind of MMO. First of all, it has alot of themepark tendancies, but not so much that you are streamlined, you can go off and explore stuff and the RPG potential is the best of any game out there, but for the most part it is about the story. The gameplay/combat is good, but the quest, story and amazing graphics are what really make this game top notch.
 

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Elikal

This decision is both logical and regrettable. it is regrettable, because experiencing a story in a group is way more fun and excitement than alone. What is the heroic, triumph, what is the tragedy worth, when no one is there to share the moment with you?

 

Maybe but not all the time.

I remember so many times in Guild Wars when the group wanted to skip the cut scenes. I also remember in DDO when going through a dungeon or quest was essentially blazing through it because the participants had already done it. Leaving me to just tag along at their fast clip.

And in LOTRO when I as still reading the last npc's quest text and everyone had already clicked and left the instance.\

I think it takes a group of like minded people to experience quests in a group and to fully take advantage of that.

This change in LOTRO will actually enable me to experience the rest of the main quest. Actually, most of it.

It's not within my personality to shout for groups. If asked I will go and will most likely enjoy it on some level depending on the group, but in the end, if there is no group available I always find something else to do with my time.

Now, this is not to say that I think all group content should be made soloable to bow to my whim. On the contrary, my attitude has always been that I will go without because that is the price I pay for not being proactive about grouping.

My thought is that this is a good thing for my playstyle but they really should enable different and interesting rewards for players who do want to group in order to encourage grouping.

It's funny that this is happening because along with the other voices on forums that asked for this, I had come out and blatantly stated that this was something that I would have liked when I spoke with Steefel at Pax.

It actually gives me a reason to subscribe which of course is probably a huge plus for Turbine as they are probably counting on people who never did the group main quests to actually join for the chance to experience the game. Still, I can't help feel that something was lost with this.

Grouping or soloing should be a decision not something that another has to endure because there is no other way.

Awesome reply and it's often the way I think I have done two raids in LOTRO and honestly those two I had to get drug kicking and screaming.  For me it is more a point of not wanting to feel so "important" to what others in game are trying to accomplish and also the fact that for some reason the mental timer in my head immediately kicks in when in an instance/raid group so much so that the content feels most like a chore and less like fun even with the radiant carrot dangled at the end.  I find myself wanting nothing more than to not be playing the minute I get in an instance/raid but I don't feel I am entitled to that content on the contrary I think since raiders and such go through something I find so excruciating they deserve that extra carrot.

And lastly you are right to group or solo should be a choice made by that indivudual player.  I don't begrudge those who feel no need to play an mmo solo and would hope in time that the sentiment that seems to exist the other way would change.

Thank God ( or Iluvatar anyway.)! As a Hunter there'ld be days I'd spend teleporting all over Middle Earth trying to find groups  to do various open Books ( granted I'm on Firefoot). I imagine for a non-Hunter it would be incredibly difficult.

I'm very hopeful about this. It took me weeks to find a group to finish 1.15.12 (and I'm currently experiencing the same problem with 2.8.3). Not many players are interested in completeing the book quests anymore. It's all about rad gear and legendary items now. When the level cap was 50, the rewards given out for completeing the epic quests were quite desirable. But with level caps approching 65, legendary items and radiance gear, the general consensus is that the epic book group quests are just not worth the time and effort for the outdated rewards offered.  However, for those players who still want to complete the epic quest arc (like me), any option that allows me to work on those quests at MY convenience (and no longer have to hope and pray I can find 5 other players who are also looking for a fellowship) is a big plus.

I'm going to give you Lord of the Rings to read.  Except, before I give it to you I'm going to rip out Chapter 12 "Flight to the Fords" in Book 1; and I'm going to rip out Chapter 5 "The Ride of the Rohirrim" in Book 5.   The only way you can read these chapters I've torn out is too gather 5 friends and read it together.  But as an added challenge, they have to be the right types of friends, and I'll be the judge of that. You can't all be of the same Class of readers -- you can't all be Tolkien Loremasters. You'll need at least one Louis Lamour Tank, and a Rober E. Howard Champion, and perhaps a Harlequin Romance Author Minstrel (doesn't matter who, we just need ONE!)...but I'll not allow any Tom Clancy Hunters into the group because their pages per second (PPS) sucks these days......

So yeah, I think Orion's solution for LoTRO's Epic line can work to solve these bottlenecks.  Still PLENTY of group content. Plenty. Not only PLENTY, but the group content remains the best in the game by far.

As a final observation, I find it fascinating that those who most ardently support forced grouping are the very people with whom I'd least like to group.

Originally posted by Elikal

I don't want to overly dramatize it, but if there are crucial moments in which developments at large are changing, it is this. Sorta like D-Day for Europe, this is a bit of a water margin for MMOs. Why? Simple: we have seen a huge rise in Soloability, and story is still a relatively fresh and new element in MMOs, and - at least until SWTOR hits - something not yet fully developed. An element in its infancy.

Now what we see is, by and large that more and more people want to decide by themselves whether they want to solo or group in a MMO, something that so far was pre-set by the quests and mobs. This might be a turning point. A first step, in which at the end MMOs generally leave the choice in quests. This is so vital, because story will be the mayor innovative factor in MMOs in the coming decade. The one thing which differs old gen MMOs of "kill 20 of X" from really Role Playing MMOs.

This decision is both logical and regrettable. it is regrettable, because experiencing a story in a group is way more fun and excitement than alone. What is the heroic, triumph, what is the tragedy worth, when no one is there to share the moment with you? I think it cheapens those moments, when you have no one to remember it together. On the other hand, it is logical. I have tried to play the stories VERY meticiously in LOTRO, for one because I liked them a lot, and they are what makes LOTRO other than so many MMOs. The book quests. Its what attaches me to my char, and why in LOTRO unlike other MMOs I have only one really played out char. I am one hero in Middle Earth, feeling connected by the book stories. However, in the later days I too had GREAT difficulties to find people for the book quests, especially the more difficult and demanding ones, those which take a long time and much work. So I came to a point in Book 2 where I was forced to wait or skip. So it is, alas, a necessity, which will make it even more difficult to find people for book quests, because as experience shows, what CAN be soloed WILL be soloed by most. Its a bad circle.

 

For good or ill, I think this is the margin of a paradigm change.

Well thought out post. But I think you are being a bit over dramatic. This one change isn't spelling the doom of grouping for the entire industry.  Yes, SWTOR might be that paradigm shift, but not this change to a line of quests that reside in Volume 1. 

I will also nit-pick with your assertion that experiencing the story in a group is way more fun and exciting than alone.  This assertion is not universal. While I have had some fun times with my Kinsman, I have also been frustrated in other grouping situations where everyone is running through the quest so fast that I don't have time to read the NPC dialogues, or fully take in the graphical content. Everyone rushes through it.  An even more frustrating thing is going into a quest fresh with people who've done it a dozen or even a few times and so they KNOW every little thing that must be done -- there's no sense of adventure in that for the newbie going through. That for me is a huge turnoff when experiencing new content.

Originally posted by dhayes68

Originally posted by Mrbloodworth

Originally posted by dhayes68

Originally posted by Mrbloodworth

Originally posted by dhayes68

Originally posted by Mrbloodworth

Originally posted by dhayes68

You have to wonder what they were thinking when they made an MMO that is so story-centric and story-driven (especially given the wide familiarity of the story) combined with having parts of the map delivered over time and restricted to the highest levels.  It leads to a very linear progression that stratifies the playerbase.

I wonder if this solution will accomplish what it is intended too, or will it further dilute the 'community'.

 

Every book is self contained and optional, you can leave this "path" and skip, complete, rejoin any time you want. You do not, and never have had to do them in order, ever.

And they were thinking they were going to make an awesome PVE MMO that was story based and episodic. They were right. 

 

Read my post more clearly and you'll see I'm specifically talking about the story-driven dynamic COMBINED with the parcelling out of the map over time. A strange dynamic I think specific to LoTRO in that they didn't give a whole map, then added to it, but gave only part of a whole map that many are familiar with. And also my point was that the combination of the two would lead to a stratified playerbase.

I'm not knocking your precioussss game. I was addressing the problem that the devs, obviously, in introucing the proposed solution in the article are aware of as well.

 

 

Middle earth is a big place, they are simply working their way west.... How else would they do it?

 

They could do it in a way that doesn't force players into stratified level bands across the game world. So far new lands have been for the highest level players only.  If this trend continues then as the game progresses, some of the parts of the map which should be the most dynamic (like Gondor for example) will be only for the very highest levels.  And by tying the story line to the rollout of new lands it also means as time goes on more and more players will be playing much different parts of the story at the same time which also in a way helps disjoint the player community.

 Not all of the new zones have been only for high level. Infact most of the new content in SOM is for 30 - 65.

So FAR all the new zones have been for high level. SOM hasn't launched yet. And while I'm sure there is new content across the board, the new zones themselves are for high-levels, since low-levels can't get through Moria, no?

 

If you get right down to it. The books themselves were written with levels. They start out with the hobbits as simple folk that never do anything but live their daily lives. You then start to progress with the ring leaving the shire and the encounters getting more and more difficult as you move further away from the shire and get closer to mordor. You see this with the Lotro leveling maps.

The fact that the game is a leveling game requires the new areas to be for higher level players. That is what a leveling game is all about. This is not a sandbox game obviously. This type of leveling is not for everyone, but this game is what it is. They try to add to all levels with free content and expansions. But what will keep the game going is a new high level area with each new expansion. Always moving closer to Mordor and the end of the books.

As far as the changes with the book content. I think it is a great idea. I have played off and on starting with open beta. I still have not completed all the books with any of my characters. I get stuck with 8+ do to my play times and never getting a full group. I don't care about the rewards or xp. I would just like to see the epic book stories as the dev's have written them. It is one of the best parts of the game. I don't want a SPG MMO, but following the story in a story driven game is important to me. The OPTION to solo if I can't get a group will be nice.

Well Orion has been on a personal I got to fix the lone lands for the past 6 month.  He saw the content he so loving designed and most folks bypassed it due to how hard it was.  He is redesigning the entire area hopeing folks will run the content.

The problem is most folks are not going to rerun level 30 content,  they tried to make folks do that about a year back with triumph marks, the went over like a lead balloon when the marks got you junk rewards.

So now they are going to try it again in a different way.

The problem is the book content is level spacific, most folks hated it,  They did it on one toon then found out hey I don't kneed to books to level.  That is the real problem. Nobody likes running content that is so hard you have multi wipes durring it, and nobody like crappy quest reward that just get sold for vender trash.

I don't see this changing how book content is run,  most of your level 60's are either casuall and book content dont matter, or they are hard core raiders, and that will not entice them either.

Your still going to have the problem.  Book content is just not run, not now and not after this.  Most folks will bypass what they do not need.

I'm sorry but for most of you Turbine can do no wrong. Giving people options isn't always a good idea. LOTRO may as well be a single player game with some online capabilities because that is all it will be if they allow players to solo through most of it.

They may as well admit defeat and say they have no solution to these problems. Who's going to bother looking for a group when you can just do it on your own?

Originally posted by pb1285n

I'm sorry but for most of you Turbine can do no wrong. Giving people options isn't always a good idea. LOTRO may as well be a single player game with some online capabilities because that is all it will be if they allow players to solo through most of it.

They may as well admit defeat and say they have no solution to these problems. Who's going to bother looking for a group when you can just do it on your own?

And it was such a financially disastrous decision for Blizzard to allow players to solo most of the way through WoW.   Sorry, I group because I enjoy the people I selectively group with, not because a game forces me to.  There's still plenty of content in LoTRO that requires grouping, and as I said, it is the best content in the game. Allow the early epic lines to be solo'd isn't going to destroy the game.

Originally posted by pb1285n

They may as well admit defeat and say they have no solution to these problems.

Au contraire.

Here's a solution - update the rewards and make them worthy of the quest. If it 's an epic arc, make the loot epic as well. Offer a class-specific First-Age Legendary Item or a radiance gear coin for completing all the quests in all the books. You might be amazed how quickly players will group to do book quests again.

Grab us by the loot and our hearts and minds will follow.  ;)

Originally posted by TarotMage

Originally posted by pb1285n

They may as well admit defeat and say they have no solution to these problems.

Au contraire.

Here's a solution - update the rewards and make them worthy of the quest. If it 's an epic arc, make the loot epic as well. Offer a class-specific First-Age Legendary Item or a radiance gear coin for completing all the quests in all the books. You might be amazed how quickly players will group to do book quests again.

Grab us by the loot and our hearts and minds will follow.  ;)

With SOM all instances now have secondary (random and some class based) objectives that grant rewards. And there are rewards for doing all the books int he deeds. ALSO, scurmish points can be traided for class quest items ( Skirmishes start at 30)

This is the feature I have been waiting for. I left LOTRO a few months ago because I could not complete the epic quest line by myself. Its not that I don't like grouping, I do, but night after night I'd try and get a group to do some of the epic content to no avail. I was stuck. Yeah, I could do side quests and move ahead, and I did that sometimes, but I didn't want to.

I can only play a few mights a week for maybe an hour at a time. So while my kinnies are raiding in Moria, I'm still running around the North Downs. It was frustrating. This change can get me to come back.

Where did you get that screenshot  MR  Bloodsworth!!  I have not seen that in live.

Originally posted by Thillian

 You've got mages riding goats all over the Middle Earth?
 

I get the impression that you find it absurd that a mage would ride a goat. This has me curious - for the sake of understanding your reality - what do mages ride in your world? The reason I ask is because if I saw a mage riding past me on the street I probably wouldn't be saying, "That's odd. That mage was on a goat," I'd be saying "Holy shit, I just saw a fucking wizard!"