Originally posted by Tymoris

I find it fascinating that some people care so much which holes 2+ people use for sex that they feel obligated to make specific laws against them

I personally don't like poo on my dipstick.

Looks like not many here have ever talked to a Proctologist?

Originally posted by frodus

Looks like not many here have ever talked to a Proctologist?

Whats that??? Something to look foward to at 40??

Originally posted by Enkindu

Originally posted by Fishermage

But this post was about how people are democratically rejecting gay marriage, Enkindu (remember I favor gay marriage, just arguing against the point you made at the end).

 

Point taken.

I would argue that outlawing gay marriage is unconstitutional and should never show up on a ballot in the first place.

But yes, I know all too well that people can and do vote for unmitigated disaster.  Hell we had to bear the horror and embarrassment of the shrub for 8 years.

yes if I were a Supreme Court Justice I would say the 14th amendment covers gay marriage in spirit.

It is depriving them the right to contract, period.

Whether sexual preference is a choice or genetic has no bearing on this discussion. It is a question over human rights, due process and the right to contract.

Also it is a matter of freedom of religion. As a minister if I wanna sanctify the marriage of two men or two women (or a polyamorous relation), there is nothing in the constitution that stops me, and the 1st amendment combined with the 14th guarantee that I can.

ANYONE who is of age to contract is of age to contract, man, woman whatever.

But then, I believe people own themselves, and lots of folks don't. Most folks who post here don't.

Originally posted by Enkindu

I know a couple people that are too gentle and kindhearted to carry hate around toward people with prejudice like yours.

My curse is deep empathy.  I suppose I carry a lot of anger around on their behalf.  

If you really can't see how inherently hurtful your words are then I suppose there's no need to discuss it.

What is it I said in my original post...don't you think there's the slighest chance that people are capable of convincing themselves of something in order to justify it?  Hmm.

So I suppose you think your hostile attitude toward me is justifiable because yours is the noble position, whereas mine is unwarranted because it just demonstrates all-out intense illogical hatred toward my fellow man.

Originally posted by Zindaihas

Originally posted by Enkindu

I know a couple people that are too gentle and kindhearted to carry hate around toward people with prejudice like yours.

My curse is deep empathy.  I suppose I carry a lot of anger around on their behalf.  

If you really can't see how inherently hurtful your words are then I suppose there's no need to discuss it.

 

What is it I said in my original post...don't you think there's the slighest chance that people are capable of convincing themselves of something in order to justify it?  Hmm.

So I suppose you think your hostile attitude toward me is justifiable because yours is the noble position, whereas mine is unwarranted because it just demonstrates all-out intense illogical hatred toward my fellow man.

Yep.

Originally posted by gnomexxx

What is hateful is taking your religious beliefs and pushing them on another human being.  Especially when you use the government to do so.  Whether that government be a state government or a federal government.

Look, I agree with a lot of what you write when it comes to economic arguments.  I'm a very strong conservative when it comes to the the economy.  But when it comes to someone's civil rights, I will fight and die for those in a heartbeat.

This is absolutely a civil rights issue.  There are people who's religious beliefs say that they are allowed to marry same sex couples.  These same people are being told by the government that their religious beliefs and practices are not valid.  Whether you agree with their religious beliefs or not is a mute point.  The fact of the matter is plain and clear.

Think about that.  They go to their church and they believe that they have a valid marriage before their God.  Then our government is saying that they are wrong.  Our government is saying that they're religion is invalid.  That is what you want going on in America????  Seriously?

You know, the thing is that it's not so much that I am against gay marraige.  Perhaps in principal I am not when it comes to the government saying who can and cannot marry.  It's more the reality that our society has devolved (yes, devolved) to the point that the people even have to consider the issue.  It's an ominous sign for the future of our country.  As recently as two decades ago if anyone of note had publicly proclaimed support for gay marraige, that person would have been regarded as a loon and relegated to the fringe of society.  Government didn't have to consider the matter because no more than a handful of individuals even thought it was a tenable position.  Today it's an issue that is splitting the country.

And you don't just have to look at that issue to support my position that morally, America is in big trouble.  Many of our parents love to talk about how when they were kids, they didn't even have to lock their doors because there was no need to feel unsafe in their own house or their own neighborhood.  Today we've got 15-year old girls being gang raped in public and crowds of people looking on without doing anything.

So perhaps, it's not whether the government has a right to say who should be allowed to get married; perhaps the issue is whether or not America's future looks promising.  You can take all the factors, add them up and say, "I'm not so sure."  You and I may agree that we are destroying our country economically, but we may differ on whether or not we are falling apart morally.  And I would venture to guess that the difference stems from the difference in our faiths.

If you believe that God at some time in the past destroyed the earth by a flood because of mankind's behavior (which I do) and you believe God destroyed a couple of cities in the past named Sodom and Gomorrah because of mankind's behavior (which I do), then why must I and others like me be vilified for seeing signs we find troubling and worrying that it's possible that our country could find itself in similiar dire circumstances at some point in the future if this country continues on the road that it's on?

Is it really hateful to be concerned about the well-being of our country when we see signs, both morally and economically, which may point to its eventual demise, and would likewise, be willing to give up our lives to not see that happen?

Originally posted by Zindaihas
 

You know, the thing is that it's not so much that I am against gay marraige.  Perhaps in principal I am not when it comes to the government saying who can and cannot marry.  It's more the reality that our society has devolved (yes, devolved) to the point that the people even have to consider the issue.  It's an ominous sign for the future of our country.  As recently as two decades ago if anyone of note had publicly proclaimed support for gay marraige, that person would have been regarded as a loon and relegated to the fringe of society.  Government didn't have to consider the matter because no more than a handful of individuals even thought it was a tenable position.  Today it's an issue that is splitting the country.

And you don't just have to look at that issue to support my position that morally, America is in big trouble.  Many of our parents love to talk about how when they were kids, they didn't even have to lock their doors because there was no need to feel unsafe in their own house or their own neighborhood.  Today we've got 15-year old girls being gang raped in public and crowds of people looking on without doing anything.

So perhaps, it's not whether the government has a right to say who should be allowed to get married; perhaps the issue is whether or not America's future looks promising.  You can take all the factors, add them up and say, "I'm not so sure."  You and I may agree that we are destroying our country economically, but we may differ on whether or not we are falling apart morally.  And I would venture to guess that the difference stems from the difference in our faiths.

If you believe that God at some time in the past destroyed the earth by a flood because of mankind's behavior (which I do) and you believe God destroyed a couple of cities in the past named Sodom and Gomorrah because of mankind's behavior (which I do), then why must I and others like me be vilified for seeing signs we find troubling and worrying that it's possible that our country could find itself in similiar dire circumstances at some point in the future if this country continues on the road that it's on?

Is it really hateful to be concerned about the well-being of our country when we see signs, both morally and economically, which may point to its eventual demise, and would likewise, be willing to give up our lives to not see that happen?

Ah, the true colors come out.  Lay some of that Christian brotherly love and tolerance on me.... if you have time in between blaming the evil homosexuals for random crimes and natural disasters.

Im wondering wy the US have the  balls too call them the land off the free! what a bunch off ....! And even proclaims it to the world "We are the best country too live in! live as u like, but remember!!!! i have the right too decide how u should live your life!!!"

Originally posted by Zindaihas

Originally posted by gnomexxx

What is hateful is taking your religious beliefs and pushing them on another human being.  Especially when you use the government to do so.  Whether that government be a state government or a federal government.

Look, I agree with a lot of what you write when it comes to economic arguments.  I'm a very strong conservative when it comes to the the economy.  But when it comes to someone's civil rights, I will fight and die for those in a heartbeat.

This is absolutely a civil rights issue.  There are people who's religious beliefs say that they are allowed to marry same sex couples.  These same people are being told by the government that their religious beliefs and practices are not valid.  Whether you agree with their religious beliefs or not is a mute point.  The fact of the matter is plain and clear.

Think about that.  They go to their church and they believe that they have a valid marriage before their God.  Then our government is saying that they are wrong.  Our government is saying that they're religion is invalid.  That is what you want going on in America????  Seriously?

 

You know, the thing is that it's not so much that I am against gay marraige.  Perhaps in principal I am not when it comes to the government saying who can and cannot marry.  It's more the reality that our society has devolved (yes, devolved) to the point that the people even have to consider the issue.  It's an ominous sign for the future of our country.  As recently as two decades ago if anyone of note had publicly proclaimed support for gay marraige, that person would have been regarded as a loon and relegated to the fringe of society.  Government didn't have to consider the matter because no more than a handful of individuals even thought it was a tenable position.  Today it's an issue that is splitting the country.

And you don't just have to look at that issue to support my position that morally, America is in big trouble.  Many of our parents love to talk about how when they were kids, they didn't even have to lock their doors because there was no need to feel unsafe in their own house or their own neighborhood.  Today we've got 15-year old girls being gang raped in public and crowds of people looking on without doing anything.

So perhaps, it's not whether the government has a right to say who should be allowed to get married; perhaps the issue is whether or not America's future looks promising.  You can take all the factors, add them up and say, "I'm not so sure."  You and I may agree that we are destroying our country economically, but we may differ on whether or not we are falling apart morally.  And I would venture to guess that the difference stems from the difference in our faiths.

If you believe that God at some time in the past destroyed the earth by a flood because of mankind's behavior (which I do) and you believe God destroyed a couple of cities in the past named Sodom and Gomorrah because of mankind's behavior (which I do), then why must I and others like me be vilified for seeing signs we find troubling and worrying that it's possible that our country could find itself in similiar dire circumstances at some point in the future if this country continues on the road that it's on?

Is it really hateful to be concerned about the well-being of our country when we see signs, both morally and economically, which may point to its eventual demise, and would likewise, be willing to give up our lives to not see that happen?

When the f... did the US or other countries for that mather have moral???? the moral is only placed by those who think they one on the right side! who are "We" too say what moral or not???? I think , these guardians off moral, is a bucnh off biggots, who should take a looke on their own lives and how they live it and so on, instead off making a law on how gay people should live! havent the people off the US learned from their own history, what did your forefaders fight for???

Originally posted by Enkindu

Ah, the true colors come out.  Lay some of that Christian brotherly love and tolerance on me.... if you have time in between blaming the evil homosexuals for random crimes and natural disasters.

Dude, please don't mischaracterize me by putting words in my mouth.  Nowhere did I call homosexuals evil.  They are sinners, just as I am a sinner.  We are all sinners.  If you're a human being, then you are a sinner.  And I would challenge you to tell me that you are not.  Sin is a very destructive condition.  It can destroy lives, it can destroy relationships and it can even destroy societies.  In fact there is only one thing that can overcome the destructive power of mankind's sin and that is God's grace.  Because of our condition there is only two directions in which we can move, either towards God's grace or towards our sinful destruction.  And from what I see, we appear to be heading toward our destruction.

And as I previously said, the issue of gay marraige is just a tiny portion of what's happening.  The government is destroying our economy.  And I would argue that it is mankind's condition that is playing the largest part in that.  Our politicians are destroying our country through their spending.  Why are they spending so much when I would wager just about every one on them realizes that they are contributing to our country's economic downfall?  Because they are corrupted by the power that spending outrageous amounts of money gives them.  They are able to manipulate their electorate by spending money on them.  They all want to spend more and more money and are unwilling to cut spending because they fear it might lead to the diminishment of their power.

Originally posted by torerik5

Im wondering wy the US have the  balls too call them the land off the free! what a bunch off ....! And even proclaims it to the world "We are the best country too live in! live as u like, but remember!!!! i have the right too decide how u should live your life!!!"

Well hold on just a second.

We ARE the land of the free.

The religious loonies have the right to their beliefs as well.  Free speech and freedom of religion have to apply to everyone.

And in 5 states we are just as open-minded here as you are in Norway:

* In Massachusetts, Connecticut, Iowa, and Vermont, marriages for same sex couples are legal and currently performed.
* In New Hampshire, same-sex marriages will begin on January 1, 2010.

You have to realize we are a melting pot here of religions and cultures from all over the world, and some people will take time to evolve past their ignorance.

I'm pretty sure everyone thinks Northern Europe or New Zealand are supposed to be the best place to live...

Originally posted by Zindaihas 

You know, the thing is that it's not so much that I am against gay marraige.  Perhaps in principal I am not when it comes to the government saying who can and cannot marry.  It's more the reality that our society has devolved (yes, devolved) to the point that the people even have to consider the issue.  It's an ominous sign for the future of our country.  As recently as two decades ago if anyone of note had publicly proclaimed support for gay marraige, that person would have been regarded as a loon and relegated to the fringe of society.  Government didn't have to consider the matter because no more than a handful of individuals even thought it was a tenable position.  Today it's an issue that is splitting the country.

And you don't just have to look at that issue to support my position that morally, America is in big trouble.  Many of our parents love to talk about how when they were kids, they didn't even have to lock their doors because there was no need to feel unsafe in their own house or their own neighborhood.  Today we've got 15-year old girls being gang raped in public and crowds of people looking on without doing anything.

So perhaps, it's not whether the government has a right to say who should be allowed to get married; perhaps the issue is whether or not America's future looks promising.  You can take all the factors, add them up and say, "I'm not so sure."  You and I may agree that we are destroying our country economically, but we may differ on whether or not we are falling apart morally.  And I would venture to guess that the difference stems from the difference in our faiths.

If you believe that God at some time in the past destroyed the earth by a flood because of mankind's behavior (which I do) and you believe God destroyed a couple of cities in the past named Sodom and Gomorrah because of mankind's behavior (which I do), then why must I and others like me be vilified for seeing signs we find troubling and worrying that it's possible that our country could find itself in similiar dire circumstances at some point in the future if this country continues on the road that it's on?

Is it really hateful to be concerned about the well-being of our country when we see signs, both morally and economically, which may point to its eventual demise, and would likewise, be willing to give up our lives to not see that happen?

Your words, not mine amigo.

Originally posted by torerik5

Originally posted by Zindaihas

You know, the thing is that it's not so much that I am against gay marraige.  Perhaps in principal I am not when it comes to the government saying who can and cannot marry.  It's more the reality that our society has devolved (yes, devolved) to the point that the people even have to consider the issue.  It's an ominous sign for the future of our country.  As recently as two decades ago if anyone of note had publicly proclaimed support for gay marraige, that person would have been regarded as a loon and relegated to the fringe of society.  Government didn't have to consider the matter because no more than a handful of individuals even thought it was a tenable position.  Today it's an issue that is splitting the country.

And you don't just have to look at that issue to support my position that morally, America is in big trouble.  Many of our parents love to talk about how when they were kids, they didn't even have to lock their doors because there was no need to feel unsafe in their own house or their own neighborhood.  Today we've got 15-year old girls being gang raped in public and crowds of people looking on without doing anything.

So perhaps, it's not whether the government has a right to say who should be allowed to get married; perhaps the issue is whether or not America's future looks promising.  You can take all the factors, add them up and say, "I'm not so sure."  You and I may agree that we are destroying our country economically, but we may differ on whether or not we are falling apart morally.  And I would venture to guess that the difference stems from the difference in our faiths.

If you believe that God at some time in the past destroyed the earth by a flood because of mankind's behavior (which I do) and you believe God destroyed a couple of cities in the past named Sodom and Gomorrah because of mankind's behavior (which I do), then why must I and others like me be vilified for seeing signs we find troubling and worrying that it's possible that our country could find itself in similiar dire circumstances at some point in the future if this country continues on the road that it's on?

Is it really hateful to be concerned about the well-being of our country when we see signs, both morally and economically, which may point to its eventual demise, and would likewise, be willing to give up our lives to not see that happen?

When the f... did the US or other countries for that mather have moral???? the moral is only placed by those who think they one on the right side! who are "We" too say what moral or not???? I think , these guardians off moral, is a bucnh off biggots, who should take a looke on their own lives and how they live it and so on, instead off making a law on how gay people should live! havent the people off the US learned from their own history, what did your forefaders fight for???

Again, more mischaracterization.  Nowhere did I say that I or "we" decide what is right and what is wrong.  I do say that God decides those things.  And who are we to say otherwise?  I didn't make up what is written in the Bible, it was around long before you or I were ever here.

And looking at examples from the Bible, there is precedent for destruction based on behavior.

Genesis 6:5-6: "The Lord saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time.  The Lord was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain."

Why is such a large portion of man's history filled with wars?  Why are our prisons filled to overflowing?  Why is there so much corruption in government and on Wall Street and just about everywhere else you can think of.  I'm not making this stuff up, it's right in front of your eyes.  Just open them.

Originally posted by Zindaihas

And as I previously said, the issue of gay marraige is just a tiny portion of what's happening.  The government is destroying our economy.  And I would argue that it is mankind's condition that is playing the largest part in that.  Our politicians are destroying our country through their spending.  Why are they spending so much when I would wager just about every one on them realizes that they are contributing to our country's economic downfall?

Got news for you amigo.. this country was gutted back when George W. Christian Bush decided to start a holy war with no exit strategy and failed to catch or punish anyone in the financial industry while they looted the wealth of a nation.

Obama may not be doing much better, but let's remember who gleefully blew through the nest egg working his own agenda.

Edit- sorry Zin, this is mean spirited and unproductive.  We'll just have to agree to disagree on this.  My God is compassionate and forgiving.  You seem so willing to judge, but I won't do that.  I can't reconcile a God that preaches love and demands hate.

from here
http://www.religiondispatches.org/blog/sexandgender/755/

Originally posted by Enkindu

Originally posted by Zindaihas

And as I previously said, the issue of gay marraige is just a tiny portion of what's happening.  The government is destroying our economy.  And I would argue that it is mankind's condition that is playing the largest part in that.  Our politicians are destroying our country through their spending.  Why are they spending so much when I would wager just about every one on them realizes that they are contributing to our country's economic downfall?

Got news for you amigo.. this country was gutted back when George W. Christian Bush decided to start a holy war with no exit strategy and failed to catch or punish anyone in the financial industry while they looted the wealth of a nation.

Obama may not be doing much better, but let's remember who gleefully blew through the nest egg working his own agenda.

Edit- sorry Zin, this is mean spirited and unproductive.  We'll just have to agree to disagree on this.  My God is compassionate and forgiving.  You seem so willing to judge, but I won't do that.  I can't reconcile a God that preaches love and demands hate.

The Holy War was started against us in 1979 (well way before that, but that was it's official start in most recent years). Any wars we have been involved in a reaction to that war. Now, one can argue whether or not these actions were wise or handled properly, but we didn't start this in any way, shape or form.

Now as to what caused the economic meltdown or spending, it had little to do with any war. It had to do with domestic and monetary policy over the past few decades. It is entitlement programs that are bankrupting us, and monetary policy that is creating booms and busts, as well as destroying the dollar.

I agree with you about God though, and disagree with Zind. His selective Christ died for some sins and not others, or so it seems.

The US had its fingers in Iran long before 1979... but this of course has nothing to do with gay marriage.

Originally posted by Fishermage

The Holy War was started against us in 1979 (well way before that, but that was it's official start in most recent years). Any wars we have been involved in a reaction to that war. Now, one can argue whether or not these actions were wise or handled properly, but we didn't start this in any way, shape or form.

Now as to what caused the economic meltdown or spending, it had little to do with any war. It had to do with domestic and monetary policy over the past few decades. It is entitlement programs that are bankrupting us, and monetary policy that is creating booms and busts, as well as destroying the dollar.

I agree with you about God though, and disagree with Zind. His selective Christ died for some sins and not others, or so it seems.

Fisher, I'll defer to you on the economics voodoo.  To be honest I think they make the shit up as they go along.  But I do ask with complete sincerity if you really do not believe that the sub-prime garbage and the decision to invade/ occupy Iraq had nothing to do with our current economic difficulties?

Because last I checked wars and occupations are expensive and bad debt is... well.. bad.

On another note, I don't really understand how a post can be off topic if it grows naturally and logically from a preceding post.  For instance i know this might be considered off topic, but it has relevance through continuity of ideas. 

If I were to post giant bluefin tuna migration patterns as the latest evidence for global warming in this thread, that would be clearly non sequitur .

Originally posted by Enkindu

Originally posted by Zindaihas

And as I previously said, the issue of gay marraige is just a tiny portion of what's happening.  The government is destroying our economy.  And I would argue that it is mankind's condition that is playing the largest part in that.  Our politicians are destroying our country through their spending.  Why are they spending so much when I would wager just about every one on them realizes that they are contributing to our country's economic downfall?

Got news for you amigo.. this country was gutted back when George W. Christian Bush decided to start a holy war with no exit strategy and failed to catch or punish anyone in the financial industry while they looted the wealth of a nation.

Obama may not be doing much better, but let's remember who gleefully blew through the nest egg working his own agenda.

Edit- sorry Zin, this is mean spirited and unproductive.  We'll just have to agree to disagree on this.  My God is compassionate and forgiving.  You seem so willing to judge, but I won't do that.  I can't reconcile a God that preaches love and demands hate.

Let me respond this way.  I think you said in one of your posts that you are engaged to be married.  Congratulations.  I don't know if you plan to have children or not, but let's say that you do.

Let's say that you have a son.  And as he becomes a kid of about seven or eight years, he starts playing outside unsupervised on a regular basis.  And let's say that you live near a road that experiences a moderate amount of traffic.  Suppose your son, unaware of what happens when a car strikes a person discovers that playing on the road is fun.  Now, if one day you see your son playing on the road, do you continue to let him do so?

Let's, for argument sake, say that you are the world's most irresponsible parent and you see your son playing on the road and let him continue to do so.  He loves playing on that road.  Nothing brings him as much joy as playing on the road.  You reason, "Hey, if that's what he enjoys doing, who am I to stop him?"

Now let's say that I am your neighbor and while I'm out doing yardwork, I see your son playing on the road.  I become alarmed at such a sight and I run out and grab him and bring him back into your yard.  And while I'm doing this, you watch the whole thing.  Just as I am alarmed at seeing your son on the road, you become alarmed at the sight of me running out grabbing him and pulling him off the road.  You run outside and say to me, "Just what do you think you're doing?"

I say, "Your son was playing on the road."

And you respond, "I know, he likes playing on the road."

"Yeah, but..."

"How can you be such a hateful person?  My son loves more than anything else to play on the road and you stopped him from doing what he loves to do most."

Am I really such a hateful person for not wanting your son to play on the road?

Just an quick interjection here.

Research indicates that the rate of molestation at the hands of homosexuals is higher than among heterosexuals.

Now, you wonder why Gay marriage keeps being shot down.  Adoption of a child by a Gay couple?

Originally posted by outfctrl

Just an quick interjection here.

Research indicates that the rate of molestation at the hands of homosexuals is higher than among heterosexuals.

Now, you wonder why Gay marriage keeps being shot down.  Adoption of a child by a Gay couple?

 

On the same grounds they should shoot down straight couple from adopting since heteros molest also. I didn't find anywhere in the biased article that hetero molestation rate is 0% hence the argument is irrelevant.

Originally posted by Zindaihas

Let me respond this way.  I think you said in one of your posts that you are engaged to be married.  Congratulations.  I don't know if you plan to have children or not, but let's say that you do.

Let's say that you have a son.  And as he becomes a kid of about seven or eight years, he starts playing outside unsupervised on a regular basis.  And let's say that you live near a road that experiences a moderate amount of traffic.  Suppose your son, unaware of what happens when a car strikes a person discovers that playing on the road is fun.  Now, if one day you see your son playing on the road, do you continue to let him do so?

Let's, for argument sake, say that you are the world's most irresponsible parent and you see your son playing on the road and let him continue to do so.  He loves playing on that road.  Nothing brings him as much joy as playing on the road.  You reason, "Hey, if that's what he enjoys doing, who am I to stop him?"

Now let's say that I am your neighbor and while I'm out doing yardwork, I see your son playing on the road.  I become alarmed at such a sight and I run out and grab him and bring him back into your yard.  And while I'm doing this, you watch the whole thing.  Just as I am alarmed at seeing your son on the road, you become alarmed at the sight of me running out grabbing him and pulling him off the road.  You run outside and say to me, "Just what do you think you're doing?"

I say, "Your son was playing on the road."

And you respond, "I know, he likes playing on the road."

"Yeah, but..."

"How can you be such a hateful person?  My son loves more than anything else to play on the road and you stopped him from doing what he loves to do most."

Am I really such a hateful person for not wanting your son to play on the road?

From my point of view your example attempts to compare two things that are completely different.

I think that any reasonable person understands the dangers that a busy road presents to children.

The child, because of lack of life experience and understanding of consequences, needs to be protected from the road.

I'm assuming that your analog to playing in the street is "sinful homosexual behavior" and that the world needs to be protected from the wrath of god that will be delivered as punishment for this sin.

Here's my problem:

It is very clear to ME that God CREATES people as homosexuals, and fully expects them to seek spiritual, emotional, and physical fulfillment with a partner.  I believe 100% that God is just as willfully present in a same-sex marriage as he is in a heterosexual marriage.

If i felt that i had the right to IMPOSE my beliefs on others (which I do not) I might suggest that the prejudice and willful malice demonstrated by many religious and cultural groups is a cancer that threatens humanity.  Because I respect your right to hold your own beliefs, I can't make the same analogy you used with keeping the child from the road.

You believe in the Bible.  That is great.  Many people believe in the Koran, or any number of sacred texts in uncountable versions, revisions, and translations across the globe.  Many people believe in NOTHING at all, and think that life ends with death.  I personally believe in patience, simplicity, compassion, and love.  I do not trust ANY written word to be free from human alteration or intent.  I DO know that I have directly experienced what i would call "the grace of God" and that for me personally it has happened in unspoiled, wild places.. most often climbing in the high mountains or far out at sea.

So here's the rub:

You think the Bible is True.  Period.  And I know that drives most of your intent with regard to this particular issue.  The trouble is, as SURE as you are that the Bible is true, you can NOT impose your beliefs derived therein on others.  EVER.

To your thinking you are "testifying" or "spreading the word" or "offering salvation."  To me, you are doing nothing more than attempting to impose a belief system on ME that contains elements that I find INCREDIBLY OFFENSIVE.  Imagine if someone were telling you that you HAD to become homosexual to submit to the will of God.  I'm pretty sure you would be horrified and angry.  

Well, that is EXACTLY what fundamentalist Christian doctrine and other homophobic religions and cultural traditions do to gay people.  It is EQUALLY offensive to them, because it conflicts with their very NATURE which I believe 100% to be God given.

You may or may not know that I had one grandfather who was a Baptist minister and one grandfather who was a Methodist minister.  I was kicked out of Sunday school when I was 7 or 8 because I told the teacher that the creation myth didn't make any sense.  I do NOT believe that "Buddha nature" or "Christ nature" requires ANY particular organized religion religion to achieve.  I was engaged to a Catholic woman when I was 25 and we split up because I flatly refused to promise in pre-cana classes to raise any children in the Catholic faith.

I guess the point of that detour is to try to demonstrate that I have DEEPLY examined my own faith, I know EXACTLY why I believe what I believe, and that my faith and worldview is as valid as any found in the pages of the Bible, Koran, or Tao te Ching.

Originally posted by outfctrl

Just an quick interjection here.

Research indicates that the rate of molestation at the hands of homosexuals is higher than among heterosexuals.

Now, you wonder why Gay marriage keeps being shot down.  Adoption of a child by a Gay couple?

 

I'm 1000% against homosexual child adoption, even more so after reading this article ^^