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Originally posted by Jairoe03
I don't think MMORPGs reward players who play more. P2P games reward everyone the same. If you play one hour, you get the xp and gear you can make in one hour. If you play 1,000 hours, you get the xp and gear you can earn in 1,000 hours. The person that plays 1,000 hours earns xp and gear at exactly the same rate as the person that plays one hour. They are not rewarded any more or any less. Everyone earns roughly the same thing per hour played. It's like, I work an hour, I make 10 dollars. I work 1,000 hours, I make 10,000 dollars. Still 10 dollars an hour. No overtime is given in an MMORPG.
I want to point out the most significant flaws in any job to MMORPG/game comparison, I am not getting paid to play and in fact I am actually paying to play for a duration of time. Part of it also includes adding value. Sure I do agree I shouldn't be anywhere near the level of anyone that has put forth 10x more hours as me, but I should have ways of keeping up with friends/family that can put in a little more time. Luckily, EVE allows this and as someone said before, skill isn't everything in this game, its also what you do with it and your ships, the way you design. Again, its a much slower paced game and I like it for the fact that its a great environment to hang out with people, talk and meet others. The community is great and helpful for the most part and its more international than most games since the universe consists of 1 "shard". Half of MMORPGs to me is the social aspect and being able to join a corp, meet new friends and do ops together on a casual level (rather than schedule it out on a calendar or force your best to go just so you can see if you can clear the latest raid). EVE allows people to do it and allows people to do it that much better with its systems set up. Especially with the potential in the future with the sovereignty system, its going to open up much more dynamics within the game and many more features that EVE is looking to add. And what other MMO is actually trying to mesh console gamers and PC gamers into one universe. That'll be epic if pulled off right.
EDIT: Never compare games to work unless you work in the industry or something. Its got to be one of inappropriate comparisons. Gaming shouldn't feel like working but many come off like it does and I find it odd and funny.
I think that is ridiculous. It's the best comparison there is. The biggest mistake you are making here is not realizing that the "job" is not MY job, not ME, the real person sitting at the computer. It's the job of my CHARACTER. The CHARACTER is making the xp and gear, and going up in levels. I'm not gaining levels, HE (or SHE) is, and he does that with his JOB which is to kill Mobs and do quests. You play an MMORPG for an hour, and you make a "wage" in gear and xp. It correlates very well to work. Some people get paid to photograph naked models, or to taste wine. Do you think they feel like they are doing a boring repetitive task? Just because your work may be boring or repetitive doesn't mean that is the case for everyone. Some people have jobs that are so much fun they'd do it for free, but they are lucky enough to get paid to do it. Do you really think being a rock star is boring and repetitive? Yet you get paid for the hours you play on stage, and quite a bit. So "fun" doesn't have to be only related to games, people can have fun doing their jobs as well. And games aren't always fun, sometimes they are very boing. Pay to Play MMORPGs and work correlate very well, because you get compensated by the hour (although other compensations exist) in both. In a job you get dollars per hour. In an MMORPG you get xp and gear per hour. The task you do to get dollars or xp and gear can both be either fun or boring. However, in a Pay to Play MMORPG, everyone is compensated equally, unlike the real world job. I make xp per hour the exact same as you do. No matter how much I play, I won't make more xp per hour (roughly) than you do. Whereas a Rock Star makes much more per hour than a McDonald's worker. What I find odd and funny is that you can't see how easy it is to compare games and work, when you are rewarded in a game like an MMORPG per hour played. You did know that game gold can be sold for real money, and for some people farming gold actually is their job, right?
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Originally posted by comerb
That's your problem. If you think that running missions is playing Eve your sorely mistaken.
I think he eats his pizza with a fork TBH : 0 I am really curious about one thing, has an EVE player ever gone to the PUB or another forum and started a thread that said this game or that game sux??? |
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Originally posted by hfztt
Your link is one of the reasons why EVE is such a bad game... Click on this link: http://eveboard.com/pilot/Qual Now look at the amount of Level 5 skills, each one takes.. a couple weeks? And there are what, like 50-100 level 5 skills that you have? How is it fair that someone who sits on their ass but keeps a subscription deserves to have such highly ranked skills? That part makes no sense, and its too bad you EVE fanboys don't know how to respond to that argument. Do you really think your offline time should count for ANYTHING at all? If I ever played EVE I would feel that my character is garbage compared to complete newbies who have maintained a subscription longer, because they will obviously have higher level skills because they've maintained a subscription longer. You guys complain that I said EVE sucks, are you really going to argue that it does not suck? When its skill system is obviously there just for subscription money? When you don't even have to invest any real time into an MMORPG to gain advancements? EVE isn't unpopular because it is difficult, or hard to understand.. Most people probably quit because they see the idiotic skill system that favors people who have maintained accounts for very long periods of time. The sad thing is you don't even need to play EVE at all to have a really good character. Your skills can be maxxed and you don't have to do anything, as long as you buy the required skills and maintain a subscription long enough, your character can be good without even playing it. Tell me why anyone should play a game that favors people who just sit on their ass and maintain subscriptions? At least EQ and WoW and almost every other MMORPG allows people to catch up and play on a level playing field. EVE is just carebear bullshit that favors people who stay subscribed longer... If you didn't start EVE in the first few months, then there seems like there would not be a point in playing it at all, because other people automatically have better characters (through no effort of their own.) Seems a bit artificial that they put such long real life limits on those skills as well. Then they allow offline time? Is the scam not obvious to you EVE players? Maybe you've invested so much time (or maintained an account for so long) that you're in denial at this point. If CCP abandoned their idiotic time-based skill system I think their game would be a bit more popular and would be taken seriously as an MMORPG. But for now I consider it in the same class of games as mybrute or travian (wait x units of real life time before you can have this.)
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Originally posted by Kyleran
Oh hey, thanks for another short one, and segues right into one of the OP's main complaints. See, I take a totally different viewpoint, I think MMORPG's greatest failing as a genre is the design that rewards players who play more than others. I think time subscribed is an excellent way to level the playing field and EVE's system does exactly that. Sure, the OP doesn't care for it, he sounds like a Lineage 2 player btw, and some of those folks had no problem playing 12-14 hours a day to get to the top. I'm afraid my lifestyle doesn't pemrit that sort of time committment and I'm sure glad there's a game that doesn't relegate me to 2nd class citizenship simply because I can't play it all the time. I can understand why you and the OP wouldn't care for that design, that's fine, its just a different philosphy and while a valid reason not to like playing EVE, it doesn't translate to... EVE sucks!!! Leveling your skills isn't a core focus of EVE, earning the ISK to pay for ships that you will eventually have blown out from under you is the design focus, and while its possible to avoid PVP for the most part, the world is entirely designed to support the model. But that will be discussed in another post.
Yeah, your brilliant solution is, instead of letting players influence how fast their character progresses, lets FORCE how long they progress. That way, the people who bought the game on day 1 will always be on top. People who bought EVE after that have characters that simply aren't as good, there is no way to have as many skills as the original players. So it levels the playing field by making it so that people who bought it in 2003 will always be 6 years ahead of players who bought it in 2009. That is great. 12-14 hours a day? Let me tell you about my level of skill. In my 1 hour of an MMORPG I get as much done as most people do in 4 hours. I'm not a newbie who just can invest a lot of time into a game, nice try though..Not everyone who complains about a horrible time-based system aren't in that category either. It's the fact that they can't influence the progression of their own character in any way.
Other MMORPGS -> Invest time -> Advance your character EVE -> Longer Subscription Time -> More Advancements Yeah, leveling your skills isn't the main focus, sure. Oh wait, you need skills to fly those ships you are going to spend your ISK on. Want a nice ship? Wait a couple years, until you have all the pre-requisites. You're always going to be upgrading something so that you can eventually buy something with that ISK. When I played EVE, the garbage skill system couldn't keep up with my ISK collection. Sorry I don't want to have to play several years to have a decent character (and still be behind people who bought EVE in 2003.) Btw, I guarantee that those lineage players, or WoW, or EQ players that you EVE people bash are a lot more skilled than the people who whine about time-investment affecting the progression of their characters. Any skilled person isn't going to be thrilled with a game that puts real-life time limits on skill training, because they think they are better than most people, and wouldn't want to progress at the same rate. EVE only attracts the lazy player who can't invest any time into their character. You act like MMORPGs require some sort of time investment to get to the top, that is wrong. Sure, there are initial grinds in EQ, and WoW. But once you are at the end, you don't spend 12-14 hours a day raiding. Sorry EVE players don't want to play MMORPGs that require investing more than 5 minutes a week. Anything more than 5 minutes a week of time investment is unreasonable for an MMORPG.
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NovaKayne
Hard Core Member
Joined: 3/04/04
That is just my opion and we all know what THAT is good for! |
says you. I do not think it would make it more/less popular.
I log on now in the middle of the week and there are 50k plus users logged in on the one server. Where is your game? I mean with the obvious insder knowledge you have I would assume you are going to be the next Raph. Say hello, To the things you've left behind. They are more a part of your life now that you can't touch them. |
Originally posted by Ginkeq
Your link is one of the reasons why EVE is such a bad game... Click on this link: http://eveboard.com/pilot/Qual Now look at the amount of Level 5 skills, each one takes.. a couple weeks? And there are what, like 50-100 level 5 skills that you have? How is it fair that someone who sits on their ass but keeps a subscription deserves to have such highly ranked skills? That part makes no sense, and its too bad you EVE fanboys don't know how to respond to that argument. Do you really think your offline time should count for ANYTHING at all? If I ever played EVE I would feel that my character is garbage compared to complete newbies who have maintained a subscription longer, because they will obviously have higher level skills because they've maintained a subscription longer. You guys complain that I said EVE sucks, are you really going to argue that it does not suck? When its skill system is obviously there just for subscription money? When you don't even have to invest any real time into an MMORPG to gain advancements? EVE isn't unpopular because it is difficult, or hard to understand.. Most people probably quit because they see the idiotic skill system that favors people who have maintained accounts for very long periods of time. The sad thing is you don't even need to play EVE at all to have a really good character. Your skills can be maxxed and you don't have to do anything, as long as you buy the required skills and maintain a subscription long enough, your character can be good without even playing it. Tell me why anyone should play a game that favors people who just sit on their ass and maintain subscriptions? At least EQ and WoW and almost every other MMORPG allows people to catch up and play on a level playing field. EVE is just carebear bullshit that favors people who stay subscribed longer... If you didn't start EVE in the first few months, then there seems like there would not be a point in playing it at all, because other people automatically have better characters (through no effort of their own.) Seems a bit artificial that they put such long real life limits on those skills as well. Then they allow offline time? Is the scam not obvious to you EVE players? Maybe you've invested so much time (or maintained an account for so long) that you're in denial at this point. If CCP abandoned their idiotic time-based skill system I think their game would be a bit more popular and would be taken seriously as an MMORPG. But for now I consider it in the same class of games as mybrute or travian (wait x units of real life time before you can have this.)
So did someone from CCP Impregnate you mother.......Just curious! Why rant on about something you don't know any thing about. I would honestly answer your question but you just seem like a jerk from you post TBO! |
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Originally posted by Ihmotepp
I'm not here to argue whats fun and what isn't, that was never part of the point as to the fact you are actually trying to compare something in the real world to something that doesn't even follow real world rules. The day we can start making these analogies are the days we should stop playing MMORPG's and go back for more work if they are truly so similar. The reward behind an MMORPG isn't solely exp/gold for time here and it isn't exactly equal. If you take two people with different game playing and the same exact amount of time do not get rewarded equally but yet they both pay the same amount of money. This can be attributed to a lot of things, the amount of exp AV was rewarding recently is a prime example, if one leveled AV and another leveled traditionally PvE quest, there would be a significant difference so the rules of the game influence how well you are rewarded. Last time I checked, I don't think there were cries for nerfing particular jobs because they were too powerful or else I would of nerfed Britney Spears a long time ago =x So there is some amount of control over the environment involved in the game not available in the work field unless you want to start comparing developers to your boss too -_- Last time I checked, customers are generally heard as long as they scream loud enough. Ultimately, I pay an MMORPG to burn time on with a job I sell my time in exchange for currency. I think you should really redefine your definition of reward in MMORPG if all it is to you is just gold, gear and character development. Sounds like you could do that in a single player for a fraction of the cost, Dragon Age anyone? |
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Originally posted by Ginkeq
How many of those level 5 skill pertain to any single ship? Only a handful. The only thing excessive amounts of skillpoints provide is versatility. That's the genius of the system, and its what you don't understand. The longer you play the game, the more versatile your character becomes. You don't continually become a better and better cruiser pilot. That's not how it works. That's why the skill training system isn't a problem the way it is. There are only so many skillpoints that pertain to any particular task or ship. Lets say there are 20 skill that directly affect your combat prowess in a cruiser. Now, pushing those all those skill to level 5 will take several months... possibly even years. And what benefit do you get from it? Perhaps a 10% increase in capability... for a year of training. And eventually, it caps out. A 100m pilot doesn't have 100m SP in cruiser related skills, the total skillpoints you can apply for cruiser related skills is only a fraction of that. It's small potatoes, in 90% of the cases taking a skill to level 5 isn't even worth it unless that skill is a prerequisite to open up other skill training paths. I'm not really sure what is hard to understand about this. A 10m skillpoint pilot can fly a couple of ships very well. A 100m skillpoint pilot can fly a several ships very well, and probably is fairly good at a handful of other things. But when they are both sitting out there in opposing fleets, both of them are only using the skillpoints that are associated directly with the ship they are flying at that time. All those millions of skillpoints in trading, cap ships, production, corp relations, marketing, anchoring stealth bombers, frigates, cruisers, industrials, etc... those are all worthless when your sitting in a battleship. Because the game is designed in a way that all ship classes are important and counterbalance each other, this design works perfectly. There are very few things a new player can't do as well as a 7 year player within 3 months of starting. Most of them revolve around flying very large ships which have extended training periods (and thats as it should be). A new player just needs to focus their training and soon they will be 95% as effective in a particular ship class as anyone in the game. Conversely, in other games it takes much longer than that to level to cap and obtain gear that allows you to even begin to compete with veteran players.
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Confirming that my 5 year old jack-of-all-trades character has has his ass handed to him by highly-talented, highly-specialized 6 month old characters on multiple occasions. |
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I tyried eve, and really could not get in to it. the same with wow... Playing daoc and loving it totally.. |
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Originally posted by comerb
How many of those level 5 skill pertain to any single ship? Only a handful. The only thing excessive amounts of skillpoints provide is versatility. That's the genius of the system, and its what you don't understand. The longer you play the game, the more versatile your character becomes. You don't continually become a better and better cruiser pilot. That's not how it works. That's why the skill training system isn't a problem the way it is. There are only so many skillpoints that pertain to any particular task or ship. Lets say there are 20 skill that directly affect your combat prowess in a cruiser. Now, pushing those all those skill to level 5 will take several months... possibly even years. And what benefit do you get from it? Perhaps a 10% increase in capability... for a year of training. And eventually, it caps out. A 100m pilot doesn't have 100m SP in cruiser related skills, the total skillpoints you can apply for cruiser related skills is only a fraction of that. It's small potatoes, in 90% of the cases taking a skill to level 5 isn't even worth it unless that skill is a prerequisite to open up other skill training paths. I'm not really sure what is hard to understand about this. A 10m skillpoint pilot can fly a couple of ships very well. A 100m skillpoint pilot can fly a several ships very well, and probably is fairly good at a handful of other things. But when they are both sitting out there in opposing fleets, both of them are only using the skillpoints that are associated directly with the ship they are flying at that time. All those millions of skillpoints in trading, cap ships, production, corp relations, marketing, anchoring stealth bombers, frigates, cruisers, industrials, etc... those are all worthless when your sitting in a battleship. Because the game isn't designed in a way that all ship classes are important and counterbalance each other, this design works perfectly. There are very few things a new player can't do as well as a 7 year player within 3 months of starting. Most of them revolve around flying very large ships which have extended training periods (and thats as it should be). A new player just needs to focus their training and soon they will be 95% as effective in a particular ship class as anyone in the game. Conversely, in other games it takes much longer than that to level to cap and obtain gear that allows you to even begin to compete with veteran players.
What happens when you specialize in something and realize that you made the wrong choice? Waste of several months or possibly years? Just because you had a subscription longer? The thing that doesn't make sense about EVE is basing everything off of subscription time. Why couldn't they allow skill progression on something other than real life time? You're not sure what's hard to understand about what? Me not liking the idiotic progression system? The game gives certain players advantages and others never have the possibility of catching up regardless of how hard they try. As I said, EVE is just a game for lazy players who don't even like traditional concepts of MMOS like time investment. They're probably in the same class of people who buy characters/money or buy powerlevels, clearly investing time into your character is a waste of time. There are very few things a new player can't do as well as a 7 year player within 3 months of starting. Most of them revolve around flying very large ships which have extended training periods (and thats as it should be). Lol? As it should be? Why? They gave more money to a worthless company that scams people? Wait x years and you get this huge ship, what a joke EVE is, and what's worse is the people who play EVE and can't even see things as obvious as this. I could play EVE for 5 minutes a week, 53 weeks... That is 265 minutes. Tell me why someone who plays 265 minutes over a year deserves to have an advantage over someone who plays 265 minutes in 1 day? EVE had the potential to be a decent game, that is the only reason I am specifically complaining about it. It's too bad the only space MMORPG had to be developed by such a lousy company like CCP. Any company that sells their game as an MMORPG and does not allow character progression based on effort is a lousy company. Just imagine what EVE could have been like, had they made it more like Everquest or WoW. Pick a ship to start, level up (put some actual effort into your character), then raid or PvP or whatever.. But no, their model is -> keep an account 50 years then you magically are skilled enough to pilot a huge ship
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What happens when you hate your class in WoW? Oh yeah, your ass rerolls from scratch. In Eve you just alter your training regimen. You lose nothing. As I said before, it only takes a couple of months to become proficient at flying almost any ship in the game. It takes less than that when you already have many of the core skills trained because you had picked them up training for a different ship type. As an example, my current character is specialized in cruiser class combat ships. I don't have any training that is specific to battleships. It would take me about 2-3 months to train my battleships to the point of being within 90% effectiveness of every other battleship pilot in the game... Now if I wanted to reroll a rogue in WoW, not only would I have to start entirely from scratch... but it would take me a couple months of playing to hit cap(sorry, I don't play 14hrs a day), it then it would take me a couple more months of grinding BGs and Arena to put myself in gear that would make it competitive... and what happens to my level 80 shaman that entire time... well it collects dust. My Eve pilot in the meantime can now fly Battleship and Cruisers, and I don't have to start over from nothing to accomplish it. What are you trying to catch up to? A skill point total? How pointless is that? Make a choice as to what you want to do, train for it, and in a couple months you'll be damn near as good at it as anyone in the game. You don't want everyone in the game flying Titans/Caps/etc because it would trivialize those ships. The same reason you don't hand out Legendary weapons in WoW like they are hot-cakes. In 265 minutes worth of play you wouldn't have the income to support flying the ships your skill-points would allow you to fly. You wouldn't have the practical experience to use those skill-points to their potential(your ass would be in a pod so fast you'd ragequit over how "stupid" the combat system is; then we'd have to read another retarded post), and you wouldn't have the personal relationships with individuals to put yourself in a position where you could accomplish anything of note in the game. Do you think your personally going to raise the income to fly a Titan? Heh, good luck. Do you think a corporation is going to hand you the keys to a Titan just because you "have the skillpoints?" Yeah... good luck with that too. They won't even hand you the keys to a dreadnaught unless you prove your not a mouth breathing moron... and with 265 minutes worth of play, you would be. Skill points aren't nearly as important as you seem to think they are. Real practical in- game experience is the trump card in this game. The game you describe as "think what Eve would be if it was like EQ" makes me sick to my stomach. |
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Originally posted by Ginkeq
Look dude, I'm sorry if this is HARSH but for the LOVE OF GOD QUIT WHINING AND LET IT GO!!!! We don't all need to like the same things. In fact it's a good thing that we DON'T... life would get boring quick..... |
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anyway, your excuses are lame.
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Originally posted by decoy26517 My own advice? You bet. When I start whining incessantly because the opinions of others upset me I will tell myself to shut up. Edit- Look, seriously feel free to look up my other eve related posts. I'm laid back and I respect that not everyone likes the same things. But the OP here was just being disrespectful for no reason. People shared some different viewpoints with him and he was rude. No call for that. |
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Galaxo
 Advanced Member
Joined: 3/08/08
Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind. |
Originally posted by Illyssia
A screensaver that uses too much of your brain!
:)
Thank you! :) 
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Originally posted by Ginkeq
Of all the harebrained things I have read in this thread this is by far the worst, and again it shows how little you understand. Players from these games play the content that is created for them and there is nothing wrong with that. EVE players create the content for other players to interact in. Just the fact that something in the industry is different and comes at the idea of game play from a different perspective is obviously a positive thing. If CCP had followed your advice they would be broke and probably out of business right now.....Bottom line! |
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Originally posted by Ginkeq
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There are no boring games, only boring players. |
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Originally posted by Ginkeq
What you fail to consider is that the skills have deminishing returns compared in the time/bonus ratio. Each level of the skills give the same bonus, but each level takes about x6 more time to train. Put in simple terms that means that a character that have played 1 year could have 80% of what i have after 6 years. Also teh the skill tree depth is so low that you could can match any old char in skills in a specific area in a few months to. What the old char have is bredth of skills not depth. If WoW was like EvE, level 10 characters would be owning level 80 characters all the time and raid groups would have characters of all levels in them,. In eve the distance between teh new guy and the old guy never is too large to prevent them to play together or against each other. In other mmo's you would create a new character to try something new, in eve you just train that on the same character. As to offline training, that caters to a different audience. I dont have a lot of time to play, which is why all the grind based MMO's fails for me. EvE is not grind based for skills (though it is for income). Offline training means that when I play I can go do the stuff I like to do in EvE not go grind for XP. EvE is not about charactert progress. Its not about collecting loot. That is why EvE player shake thier heads at statements like that. EvE is about living an alternate life in a living virtual unvierse where you can impact history if you want to. If that is what you want in your game, EvE is the palce to be. If not, be somewhere else, but dont bash the game for not beeing what YOU think it should be. |
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If you don't like a game, don't play it. There is absolutely no need for you to come on the forums, compose a retarded thread with retarded posts moaning about EVE, insulting the players and then acting like your opinions about EVE should be the only correct opinion about this game. Did it ever occur to you that not ALL people want to spend 1 year doing skill grinding just to reach a certain level to be able to adequately do things like PVP? That is the reason why the skill system is the way it is. The game automatically trains the skill that we Que up while we go about our business learning about how to actually PLAY the game...you know...the activities you do that doesn't involve you making your fingers bloody from grinding the same damn skill over and over again. If you don't like this game, alright, fine. That's your opinion and your free to hate the game all you want. But seriously, why do WE have to be punished by reading your retarded rants just because you think that MMOs should continue to exist in their current state and not be allowed room to change and be DIFFERENT. Now, I will end my post with a final and wise sentence If you don't like a game, don't play it, don't make noise about it, and move on. |
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I think at this point we can definitely say that the OP is simply unable to process the concept of an MMO that is not based around grinding XP. Anyone who thinks that they can "win EvE" by doing nothing more than logging in to top up their skillqueue truly does deserve the "you dont get EvE" reply. Actually, come to think about it, he deserves the "piss off, you stupid troll" reply. He's had the explainations and he's ignoring them and just reposting the same whines. Enjoy your second job grinding Korean hamster-wheel MMOs. Give me liberty or give me lasers |
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Originally posted by decoy26517
OK cool, you tried a good range of things and didn't like it. That's fine; play something else. No game can appeal to everyone. Give me liberty or give me lasers |
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the training system is there like that, because really... if you could get skills as fast as you want you would: 1. lack the money to buy the skills themselves. 2. lack the money to buy the equipment and ships you got skills for. however it could have been done in 2x less time spent in skilltraining... :] still the time is needed i think and its quite justified by every other mechanic in the game. |
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