Well I'd thought I'd ask people what their ideal Death Penalty in a mmorpg would be. I've made a small poll (like I do every thread) to show general options about it.  

But I want people to post what they think would be best. I hope I didn't leave any obvious one out of the poll

Mine would be either a Character deletion if the system was made so people can't just go arround killing everyone easily.
 

Or a Heaven system where's players go to a heavenly or Hell like place(depends on mechanics or lore religion or whatever) then there could be ways to be brought back to life. From a quest, to something like players having to gain ingredients for a body and resurrect soul.(Or for cash shop games, buy quick easy way out)

Simple: I can't imagine a better Death Penalty than Full Loot Drop. Why? Its kind of realistic, I think. You die, people take your stuff -> just like in RL ;)

I do not like these abstract ideas like skill loss, less experience etc. And I really hate the Wowish-games, where there is hardly any penalty to death. Imho, you can not win, if you are not able to lose sth.

 Full loot obviously, it's probably the best way to have a healthy economy in a game and make crafter usefull.

I think that char deletion is too hardcore for a MMO, you don't spend 500+ hours on a char to lose it because you sucks/have lag etc....

The Heaven/Hell could be fun but if you have to do the same quest again and again each time you die it could be boring on the long run.

Originally posted by Kalvasflamm

And I really hate the Wowish-games, where there is hardly any penalty to death. Imho, you can not win, if you are not able to lose sth.

In fact the death penalty in WoW is rather annoying. When you're full epic the repair costs rise very fast and a full evening raid

can costs you 300 gold in repair.

Corpse run naked with no maps no coords no nothing, only your friends to help you. This makes you respect the environment, respect others, help others, which means not being an asshole in game.

Originally posted by altairzq

Corpse run naked with no maps no coords no nothing, only your friends to help you. This makes you respect the environment, respect others, help others, which means not being an asshole in game.

I voted "other" because of ^^^.  EQ1 had the death penalty perfect in my opinion.  It encouraged the community to work together, increase the risk keeping me emotionally involved, and the real life time I had to spend retrieving my stuff made me think twice about just doing whatever I wanted to do.  

I did some permadeath when playing DDO just for kicks but I wouldn't want to see it implemented into a game unless it's on its own separate server. 

Originally posted by altairzq

Corpse run naked with no maps no coords no nothing, only your friends to help you. This makes you respect the environment, respect others, help others, which means not being an asshole in game.

Like this idea

Where's the option for "This Thread"?

I hate the corpse runs they were frustrating and not fun so why have them in?

The best Death Penalty I found was Star Wars Galaxies Pre CU.

Loved the Wounds when you died so you then needed to go to a Cantina to rest and Medical centre for a Doctor or needed to be a TKM. I loved the Battle Fatigue over time in combat so that you needed to go rest every once in awhile. I loved Decay which meant you had to create bonds with crafters or be a crafter yourself. It was just a very social death penalty and item decay was parma because while you could repair it, it wouldn't go back to the full condition so you did eventually have to go back to the crafter or make it yourself.

It didn't feel like a death penalty but just part of the game and it was so well made into the game where all the professions needed eachother unless they were broken lol. These were parts of the game I loved to play because it was so social and the whole server felt like one tight friendly community. So many nice people I remember and you just don't get that from games today, everyones off soloing because the game is flawed and doesn't allow easy grouping. You go into a WoW today and all you want to do is get to end level so you can PVP because it's so unbalanced through the levels. It's just no fun having to grind away to get to the fun part so everyone ignores eachother. SWG on the otherhand you just met people straight away and played with them without needed to grind away for a month,

Another thing I loved was Jedi Permadeath because it worked with an Alpha class and it was something unique and special the game had which no other game was doing. Most importantly you wern't forced onto the Jedi class and it was something that was meant to be special and you'd see once in a blue moon because of the timeline. However they ruined it all because the whiners complained about dying and well you get your Jedi slot after you die, you just lose all your stuff so whats to complain about?

Loved SWG mechanics, the game was buggy as hell and you just wish'd SOE would have polished it over the years but it wasn't to be and we'll never see another game like it which is a shame.

Originally posted by Kalvasflamm

Simple: I can't imagine a better Death Penalty than Full Loot Drop. Why? Its kind of realistic, I think. You die, people take your stuff -> just like in RL ;)

I do not like these abstract ideas like skill loss, less experience etc. And I really hate the Wowish-games, where there is hardly any penalty to death. Imho, you can not win, if you are not able to lose sth.

If you're pushing the realism angle, why not just delete the character on death?

Also: Winning feels like winning in TF2, Starcraft, DOTA, Street Fighter, racing games, and countless other games.  Yet in none of these games is the death penalty excessive. The feeling of winning is completely relative to the challenge of the task (and to some degree, the duration it took to complete the task.)  Completing an easy game with perma-death would not feel like winning.  Completing a hard game with the bare minimum death penalty would feel like winning.

I'm not convinced there's one "best" death penalty, but the majority of good ones are summed up as "time" (which is the most important resource to players.)  You're probably going to lose time one way or another, the question is what form will it take:

• money?
• XP?
• item loss?
• respawn at start of the dungeon?

Personally I'm eager for more instance-heavy MMORPGs so they can try the last one (which isn't really viable in open world gameplay.)  It tends to get you right back into the action faster, and with less sensation of loss, even though you might be losing the exact same amount of time as the money or XP cost.

COH's take on XP loss I rather liked.  Effectively it's XP loss, but the mechanic is actually presented in a way where you don't lose XP you simply progress at half rate for a while.  It's definitely one of those "it's all in the presentation" sort of things.

 No penalty at all.

 I tend to stay away from PvP because of how it makes others behave like 10 year olds (even when they are 20+).. and it is not usually worth the risks involved. I work hard for my gear and exp so why should I risk losing those for wanting to just have fun messing around aggaints other people?

 If there were no death penalties I think it would make PvP much more wide-spread, casual, and overall more enjoyable. Would help bring back "games are for fun", and also render the whole "i'm uber, you suck for being an ill-equipt lower lvl" griefing aspect pointless.

There is no "ideal death penalty" it depends on the structure of the game.Obviously if  it takes 3 weeks to gain 1 level,then 1 death you lose a level,that is not going to fly.However if in that same game the reward for that fight that caused the death was so great,it may be worth the risk of a 3 week loss in playtime,then it could work.

I think the simplest way to implement a death penalty is by giving players a "CHOICE".This way players cannot complain,they know the choice and penalty before they engage,there is no one to blame but themselves.Example for PVP....you know going in that if you lose to a player 5+ levels lower than yourself,you will drop an item,maybe 1+ every level above the 5.

Or the game could use a ranking system,you cannot kill anyone say 50 rank lower than yourself,if you do ,then again the penalty is more severe.

For PVE it as simple as level spread versus reward.So you design the game with a higher % to top end loot depending on the level spread.Example ...you fight a mob 8 levels higher,the chance at the top end loot is say 40%,a good risk to take,however if you lose that fight the penalty is severe.If it say 5 levels above then you only get a 25% chance but the risk is less severe maybe only 20% weapon degradation and maybe 3% of your total xp for that level.Even match mobs offer a small penalty but also low chance at top end loot like maybe 1-3%,and death is only the equivalent of 3 kills to get it back.

So there is no one choice ,Scaling and player choice is the way to go.Scaling can also mean you make the choice of difficulty before entering an instance.This is also the only time instances make sense.

If you're pushing the realism angle, why not just delete the character on death?

I agree with someone above, that it would be too hard. It sure would be the most realistic, but still, companies want to earn money, and not even I would play a game with permadeath. At least not when it still takes weeks, if not months to skill out your char. And cutting the time to skill out char is not an option too, imho.

And in most games you can simply die too quick due to lags, due to cheaters using speedhacks etc.

With "winning" I mean, that I can not play a game, where death has hardly no consequence. Why?  Because I could not get ANY thrill out of it. I love the idea, that whatever I do, there could always someone behind the next corner, kill me, and take all my things. "Winning" is the thrill I get out of game. Jesus, in UO I shit in my pants every time some red pops out, while I am hunting, fishing, Idocing, etc.

For me, instances are responsible for the loss of lots of atmosphere in a game. I can't spend hours in an instance, knowing that the worst thing that can happen to me, is to get killed by some monster. Drop the instance and WoW-System and suddenly, while my guild could be doing a PvE boss, the worst thing that could happen, is to get raided by some "Red" guild while loosing all your stuff. I get bored in games like WoW, War, LotRO etc, because I can not expect any emotion besides pure boredom.

I find it hard to describe (especially in English while coming from Germany ;) and perhaps its a bit OT too. Everyone has a own opinion. And tbh: I kind of envy you. If you love instanced based games, you sure have a lot more games too chose from than I do :(

The ideal death penalty is something that complements other aspects and features of the game. That said, there is no one death penalty that fits all or is the best. This kind of thinking is very naive imo, no offence.

i voted for half drop loot, i agree also with full loot but full loot comes with crappy looking/stats items and i like some shinies, so half loot, with a chance to drop the good stuff.

<OFF TOPIC> 

STILL a game shouldn´t have ONLY a death penalty but also other "HARSH" mecanics to promote better behave and meaning on character/comunity.

Before you play the game, you must deposit 20 bucks into an account.

When you die, you lose your character, you lose the 20 bucks, and someone comes to your house and hits you in the head with your keyboard.

Or, to play the game electrodes must be hooked to your nipples and to a USB port, and when you die you an electric shock is delivered, not enough to kill you, but enough to make you cry.

Personally I like AC's version of a death penalty.  You lost experience, but could recover it through fighting and it did not change what you gained from normal experience.  You also lost items on death, but could cover your important items by carrying expensive items that were not useful to you.

Probably the best design I have seen to date.

I like experience loss in most current-style games, but I would prefer a game with full on corpse runs and items that are less ridiculously powerful. If the items double or triple your effective power, that is a real slap in the face to lose, and that too harsh for most people. But if you have a system in which all decent items are crafted and are not overly powerful, I think full item drop or deletion would be fine, if not much better. What better way to keep the economy going?

I find no point to any death penalty, although I have no problem with having to sit around for a couple of minutes recovering afterwards to give you a chance to think about what went wrong and how to fix it the next time through.  I'd never play in any severe death penalty game, I'm there to have fun, not to get punished for either making mistakes or for lag.

Originally posted by Kalvasflamm 

With "winning" I mean, that I can not play a game, where death has hardly no consequence. Why?  Because I could not get ANY thrill out of it. I love the idea, that whatever I do, there could always someone behind the next corner, kill me, and take all my things. "Winning" is the thrill I get out of game. Jesus, in UO I shit in my pants every time some red pops out, while I am hunting, fishing, Idocing, etc.

This is the real 'great divide' in this debate.  To someone like me what you described sounds weird and borders on a mental problem.   You seem unable to derive pleasure from basic game features without adding a masochistic element to it.  Rather than getting enjoyment from the challenge you enjoy the artificial fear that is generated.  It reminds me very much of the college kids who seem unable to have 'fun' without getting blind drunk.

IDeal death penalty- where you lose certain gained bonuses which were accrued while you were alive and xping. So maybe a 5% chance of heal crit is added while you're xping for a while, then the second you're dead you lose that.

Darkfall and soon to be Mortal Online have it right.  FFA full loot PVP.  Dieing has consequences, as it should be.

Full loot will never be anything more than a niche. I like xp loss with a chance to drop a few items. That alone makes for a stiff enough death penalty.And ill also stick with my animal reincarnation suggestion from the indian MMO thread, great comedic effect without breaking immersion and can be worked into a lot of quests...

When I die in game, the majority of the time it isn't due to my own mistakes.  It's because some idiot trained a bunch of mobs on me when I was already in a fight, or I get an unfortunate respawn while fighting a mob.  I play safe, I don't like getting into situations I can't handle because it wastes my time and money. 

It sounds like cruel and unusual punishment to lose gaming progress in the form of a permanently deleted character.  You guys can be as hardcore as you want, but I don't fork over fifteen dollars a month just so I can be subject to punishment due to the idiotic choices of other players. Plus I generally like to have fun when I game, and that just doesn't sound like a whole lot of fun, especially when I'm paying for it.

However, I do think it fair that some sort of death penalty exists.  I think the most effective and fair method of death penalty I have come across is in AO.  You save your experience, and if you die, you lose all of the experience gained since your last save.  If you gain a level, it is an automatic save.  Save points are only in major cities.

This made me think hard about what I was really risking every time I took on a mob or went into a dungeon.  I also think experience debts are fair.  I don't mind being forced to pay back a certain amount of experience before continuing to gain my level.  Both of these methods force people to think about what they are doing.

I predict that the next MMO phenomenon will be the one that embraces permadeath.