I've noticed how much faster recent f2p mmos expand than p2p games as well.  Let's look at RoM.  Started out with 1 playable race and rather limited content.  Now?  They've included elves added many new areas and numerous instances not even mentioning expanding the level limit from 50 to 55.  Considering it hadn't even released till may(if you don't count the betas).  That's pretty impressive.

And of course DDO is another good example.  It already had the content but it was struggling as far as players.  It goes f2p and suddenly it's increased it's subs by 40% not even mentioning the micro transations adding to the revenue stream.   AAA companies are realizing the possabilities of the f2p market.  Look at Allods online coming out at the end of the year.  Yeah I hear it has issues but few mmos don't out the gate.

I have to say until recently I agree'd with the p2p will always win over f2p games.  Yet there is truth about the fact that the mmo market is increasingly cut throat as time goes on.  I don't think they are anywhere near the p2p market right at the moment but they are steadily improving.  Imagine a f2p game that is in most ways at least on par with the AAA p2p games vs a similar p2p game.  Who wins?  I think once that happens we may see a shift in the market. 

This article shows again that people won't "bite the hand that feeds" them, but in between the lines you can read as in all previous articles why the f2p approach sucks so much. On the other hand, this article is informative in many ways. Perhaps even more informative than was intended. I did like reading it.

I believe that the confirmation about the target audience of f2p games is spot on.

Personally I believe that the f2p business model is a problematic one in that it is very hard (or challenging) to make a profit from it, and this article seems to confirm that too.

  I expect THQ*ICE to drop their f2p project very soon, and hopfully sell it to a more capable company.

  I've played their game during the entire month of october, got very involved with the forum community, and have only seen one bad decision after another take place during that short time. Which caused a lot of players to be disatisfied and angry. Some left the game entirely, most of which were the players who have been there the longest.

 This company has no apparent grasp on how to opperate an mmo, they introduce items/features with no forethought on how it will affect the games mechanics/players/economy, and are constantly needing to readjust things after they are released. Even when hosting events they couldn't get it right and had to go back and change things during the event periods.

 THQ*ICE is also extremly understaffed, their support for tickets consists of copy/paste replies days later with a tacked on irrelevant description of your problem. The forums contain 2 active moderators(Scapes/Fallcore) and only one of them acts human, the other is some copy/paste bot as far as he/it is concerned.

 With the lack of common sense from both community and company, this game is currently destined to be a failure on the NA market. What I mentioned above are only a few of the reasons why I say this, I could litterally type for hours about the subject..

  So this guy behind THQ*ICE best start putting his "vast knowledge of mmo's" to good use, and very soon. Otherwise he won't have his demoted job at all anymore.

Originally posted by bobfish

You're making a bold assumption there that DDO is doing well or that it is a good example of a free to play game.

As for the article, this Chris guy clearly never played a free to play MMO before he took the job, its not rocket science and anyone who has worked with free to play games or played them for any serious length of time will know they are drastically different to subcription MMOs.

 

It scares me sometimes how narrow minded and blind people within the industry are.

All-Seeing-Eye says what?

This article is totally true.

if it looks like a crappy grind-tastic game, if it quacks like a content light power-for-sale game then it must be yet another shit F2P game.

To encapsulate this article a developer who was employed on subscription games is now on F2P games. He has now decied that F2P is a fresh, innovative format with a lot going for it. Lucky for him, as that is where he is now working. I wonder what his bosses would have had to say if he had described F2P as a stale, money raking, vapour ware format? I think his comments were rather constrained by his new job.

So the need to deliver new content faster makes it somehow better? I doubt it.

"There isn't the nagging feeling of wasting a month that's already been paid for" – has anyone reading this ever had this feeling when playing a subscription game, because he seems to have just conjured that from no where?

I wish the F2P lovers who publish this article would surf our forums and see the number of threads from people who have been burnt by F2P games, losing loads of money to these MMO cash cows. Check that out and then tell me how wonderful the so called free to play format is.

Originally posted by AnvilMAn

if it looks like a crappy grind-tastic game, if it quacks like a content light power-for-sale game then it must be yet another shit F2P game.

This comment purely tells us all that you have yet to truly explore the F2P market recently.  Things are improving massively.  DDO is enjoying a new lease of life by making itself F2P, WAR will too.  I like P2P games when they are value for money, however F2P are FREE and some are consistantly delivering excellent content to its users.  Look at Runes Of Magic and MegaTen which seem to be going from strength to strength.

LOL

Thanks again MMORPG for ....reporting......lol......................promotiong junk games.

You got that pay check for your site.

Can we please get a person on this site that is willing to write for the readers not the Devs?

Y'know... I see a lot of bashing of Free To Play games on here. Some do abuse their cash shop, and yes, some are really cruddy, but let's face it: It's a free game. While you're tossing cash at the developers every month saying "Can I please keep playing for the game I paid $50 for the CD for?", Free to Players are getting their games for free, and a lot are starting to catch up in content to the Paid guys. Some paid games, like RF Online, DDO, and Sword of the New World went Free to Play and have since become even more successful. Just because we aren't paying for our latest crack fix doesn't make our games junk.

I'm seriously sick of this. Sub-based gamers will say anything just to valiantly defend their MMOs when the rest of the world knows exactly what it is: You're begging the devs to play your game again, just like when a crack head needs his fix, otherwise you can never log in and play your game again. All your time and work and effort lost until you spend the cash. Every. Single. Effing. MMORPG. I HAVE EVER PLAYED. Has been a grindfest. World of Warcraft is adding level 85, and nixing, AGAIN, all the raid gear you fought so hard for, bringing new skills, more races, and more importantly, MORE IMBALANCES, and leaving the past content almost barren since no one's playing it anymore.

To state a P2P MMO is any less of a grind is utter nonsense. I grind less in Runes of Magic than I ever did in World of Warcraft. I'm leveling faster, enjoying more, and I don't have to pay for anything. Some of us choose to support the devs, some just play for free. The only MMO I've met yet that you pay for and have actually gotten my money worths forth Guild Wars, and it had no subscription based content. Each expansion pack, save Eye of the North, was stand-alone. They updated the game continually, with game balances and tweaks rather than lumping in new skills and new classes to further imbalance the game.

That's my experience with this industry. I refuse to play "Pay to Play" games. I paid $50 for that game CD, and now you tell me I have no right to play the game? The devs can shove it up their rear then. The sad thing is, most Free to Play games change up the formula more than subscription MMOs, they tend to add something new and unique you'll never find in a subscription MMO. Dragonica, for instance, is an arcade-style action MMO. I don't see many of those in the Pay To Play sector. Heck, I FIRMLY believe that if Tabula Rasa had gone Free to Play with a cash shop, it'd still be alive today, and that game was more fun than half of these point-and-click armchair-general games that are flooding the market nowadays.

Originally posted by RagnarokWar

Y'know... I see a lot of bashing of Free To Play games on here. Some do abuse their cash shop, and yes, some are really cruddy, but let's face it: It's a free game. While you're tossing cash at the developers every month saying "Can I please keep playing for the game I paid $50 for the CD for?", Free to Players are getting their games for free, and a lot are starting to catch up in content to the Paid guys. Some paid games, like RF Online, DDO, and Sword of the New World went Free to Play and have since become even more successful. Just because we aren't paying for our latest crack fix doesn't make our games junk.

I'm seriously sick of this. Sub-based gamers will say anything just to valiantly defend their MMOs when the rest of the world knows exactly what it is: You're begging the devs to play your game again, just like when a crack head needs his fix, otherwise you can never log in and play your game again. All your time and work and effort lost until you spend the cash. Every. Single. Effing. MMORPG. I HAVE EVER PLAYED. Has been a grindfest. World of Warcraft is adding level 85, and nixing, AGAIN, all the raid gear you fought so hard for, bringing new skills, more races, and more importantly, MORE IMBALANCES, and leaving the past content almost barren since no one's playing it anymore.

To state a P2P MMO is any less of a grind is utter nonsense. I grind less in Runes of Magic than I ever did in World of Warcraft. I'm leveling faster, enjoying more, and I don't have to pay for anything. Some of us choose to support the devs, some just play for free. The only MMO I've met yet that you pay for and have actually gotten my money worths forth Guild Wars, and it had no subscription based content. Each expansion pack, save Eye of the North, was stand-alone. They updated the game continually, with game balances and tweaks rather than lumping in new skills and new classes to further imbalance the game.

That's my experience with this industry. I refuse to play "Pay to Play" games. I paid $50 for that game CD, and now you tell me I have no right to play the game? The devs can shove it up their rear then. The sad thing is, most Free to Play games change up the formula more than subscription MMOs, they tend to add something new and unique you'll never find in a subscription MMO. Dragonica, for instance, is an arcade-style action MMO. I don't see many of those in the Pay To Play sector. Heck, I FIRMLY believe that if Tabula Rasa had gone Free to Play with a cash shop, it'd still be alive today, and that game was more fun than half of these point-and-click armchair-general games that are flooding the market nowadays.

This is the best comment I've read in these forums.

Originally posted by Slampig

Originally posted by bobfish

You're making a bold assumption there that DDO is doing well or that it is a good example of a free to play game.

As for the article, this Chris guy clearly never played a free to play MMO before he took the job, its not rocket science and anyone who has worked with free to play games or played them for any serious length of time will know they are drastically different to subcription MMOs.

 

It scares me sometimes how narrow minded and blind people within the industry are.

All-Seeing-Eye says what?

The All Seeing Eye of Smed? Sorry, but as much as I think SOE is the Evil Empire, I can't see Smed as being up to the role of Sauron

DDO's current activities are an example of Turbines desperation to salvage the millions and millions they have sunk into to the game. Its an interesting experiment, and while Turbine is not one of my favorite companies(after they suckered us all into buying an expansion pack for Ashrons Call 2, and then closed the game) I wish them all the best. I'd be willing to give the new version of DDO a try(I was in at the original launch and played to level cap),but I keep getting a BSOD error 166 from the current game. Its a conflict with one of Nvidia's sub driver modules(which seems to impact quite a number of people). This has been going on for months and months now, and LOTRO and DDO are the only games that cause that. Oh well, perhaps some day they will fix it.
 

Originally posted by LordDmaster

LOL

Thanks again MMORPG for ....reporting......lol......................promotiong junk games.

You got that pay check for your site.

Can we please get a person on this site that is willing to write for the readers not the Devs?

I find your tag line seriously ironic, given your above... I've found most of the writers here to be interesting, giving different perspectives on the various aspects of MMO's.  Not to mention, the readers are more than capable of speaking for themselves, as the tens of thousands of posts on the forums demonstrate.

Originally posted by RagnarokWar

Y'know... I see a lot of bashing of Free To Play games on here. Some do abuse their cash shop, and yes, some are really cruddy, but let's face it: It's a free game. While you're tossing cash at the developers every month saying "Can I please keep playing for the game I paid $50 for the CD for?", Free to Players are getting their games for free, and a lot are starting to catch up in content to the Paid guys. Some paid games, like RF Online, DDO, and Sword of the New World went Free to Play and have since become even more successful. Just because we aren't paying for our latest crack fix doesn't make our games junk.

I'm seriously sick of this. Sub-based gamers will say anything just to valiantly defend their MMOs when the rest of the world knows exactly what it is: You're begging the devs to play your game again, just like when a crack head needs his fix, otherwise you can never log in and play your game again. All your time and work and effort lost until you spend the cash. Every. Single. Effing. MMORPG. I HAVE EVER PLAYED. Has been a grindfest. World of Warcraft is adding level 85, and nixing, AGAIN, all the raid gear you fought so hard for, bringing new skills, more races, and more importantly, MORE IMBALANCES, and leaving the past content almost barren since no one's playing it anymore.

To state a P2P MMO is any less of a grind is utter nonsense. I grind less in Runes of Magic than I ever did in World of Warcraft. I'm leveling faster, enjoying more, and I don't have to pay for anything. Some of us choose to support the devs, some just play for free. The only MMO I've met yet that you pay for and have actually gotten my money worths forth Guild Wars, and it had no subscription based content. Each expansion pack, save Eye of the North, was stand-alone. They updated the game continually, with game balances and tweaks rather than lumping in new skills and new classes to further imbalance the game.

That's my experience with this industry. I refuse to play "Pay to Play" games. I paid $50 for that game CD, and now you tell me I have no right to play the game? The devs can shove it up their rear then. The sad thing is, most Free to Play games change up the formula more than subscription MMOs, they tend to add something new and unique you'll never find in a subscription MMO. Dragonica, for instance, is an arcade-style action MMO. I don't see many of those in the Pay To Play sector. Heck, I FIRMLY believe that if Tabula Rasa had gone Free to Play with a cash shop, it'd still be alive today, and that game was more fun than half of these point-and-click armchair-general games that are flooding the market nowadays.

I miss TR as well. I leveled to cap in sniper and spy. But once one is at cap, there was damn little to do. It could have been a VERY fun game, but it misssed its window, and never recovered.  I doubt we will ever see it again, as NCsoft is infamous for sitting on IP's, even if they receive no benefit there from.

Originally posted by mightyikari

This is the best comment I've read in these forums.

Richard? Hm, too much whining to be him. Well worded though, I agree.

Originally posted by mightyikari

Originally posted by AnvilMAn

if it looks like a crappy grind-tastic game, if it quacks like a content light power-for-sale game then it must be yet another shit F2P game.

 

This comment purely tells us all that you have yet to truly explore the F2P market recently.  Things are improving massively.  DDO is enjoying a new lease of life by making itself F2P, WAR will too.  I like P2P games when they are value for money, however F2P are FREE and some are consistantly delivering excellent content to its users.  Look at Runes Of Magic and MegaTen which seem to be going from strength to strength.

i dont need to explore anything, see unlike F2P players i have balls and i dont need to rely on my CC to be good at whatever game i play.

Originally posted by AnvilMAn

Originally posted by mightyikari

Originally posted by AnvilMAn

if it looks like a crappy grind-tastic game, if it quacks like a content light power-for-sale game then it must be yet another shit F2P game.

 

This comment purely tells us all that you have yet to truly explore the F2P market recently.  Things are improving massively.  DDO is enjoying a new lease of life by making itself F2P, WAR will too.  I like P2P games when they are value for money, however F2P are FREE and some are consistantly delivering excellent content to its users.  Look at Runes Of Magic and MegaTen which seem to be going from strength to strength.

 

i dont need to explore anything, see unlike F2P players i have balls and i dont need to rely on my CC to be good at whatever game i play.

Ah, one of the HardCore 133t heard from...<rolls eyes> If you think that buy the win is typical of all cashshop games, then you've obviously not played many of them.  Its possible in some, but far from all of them.  I hope you and your "balls" are playing Darkfall... ^^

As I have heard elsewhwere the like of Perfect World was once a decent cash shop game, now it is cash cow for its owners. So enjoy your F2P game while you can, sooner or later the owners will care a little to much for the £$.

Originally posted by bobfish

Something that many people miss is that 99.99% of free to play MMOs are designed around a Korean or Chinese audience, which is much more tolerant of slow and repetative gameplay than the western audiences. Even Runes of Magic, a Taiwanese game suffers from this in some respect, but is arguably the best free to play MMO to be exported from Asia to date.

I think you will find, once western developers start releasing free to play MMOs that the standards will go up drastically. After all, it isn't the payment model that is the problem, in almost all cases it is design decisions that are the problem and none of these design decisions are tied to money, they just happen to be how they make games out there.

Err... how much have you read the forums here and elsewhere? Time and time and time and again, people state that they do not like RMT in any form (cash shops, gold buying, etc) because they don't believe that your character's progress should be tied to how much money you spend in an item shop; that your character's progress should be based on playing the game itself, not how often you can pull out your credit card.  That is a major turn-off to many people. You can't just dismiss it as "it isn't the payment model", when there's a sea of evidence out there that, to many, the payment model is one of the *key* problems. 

The design decisions are poor because they make a MMO that's mostly otherwise bland and uninspired and that encourages people to get "the good stuff" in the cash shop. Or, to get things that help players get to "the good stuff" or do better at "the good stuff" (e.g. end game, PvP, etc) by using the cash shop.

Look to Earth Eternal, possibly the first real free to play game from a US developer, it incorporates a lot of good design decisions and very few bad ones, if you look past the somewhat child-like art style they've chosen.

That's your opinion, though. Not everyone feels that way and it's not necessarily an argument for a RMT model.

Also, I'd wager that if they implemented a Cash Shop model into the game, it would turn many people away. Again, just look at reactions to similar situations out there... people will say "It looks like a fun game, but no way will I play a MMO with an item mall".

Everyone needs to stop judging games based on the payment model, Aioshi included, and start judging them on their gameplay!

It's not that simple.

Originally posted by Scot

To encapsulate this article a developer who was employed on subscription games is now on F2P games. He has now decied that F2P is a fresh, innovative format with a lot going for it. Lucky for him, as that is where he is now working. I wonder what his bosses would have had to say if he had described F2P as a stale, money raking, vapour ware format? I think his comments were rather constrained by his new job.

So the need to deliver new content faster makes it somehow better? I doubt it.

"There isn't the nagging feeling of wasting a month that's already been paid for" – has anyone reading this ever had this feeling when playing a subscription game, because he seems to have just conjured that from no where?

Bingo. That's exactly what I touched on in an earlier post. They're placing F2P MMOs as the "solution" to a "problem" that they just dreamed up.

They do it all the time for products on TV... imply that you might have "x" problem, but lucky for you... they have this great product to help!

I wish the F2P lovers who publish this article would surf our forums and see the number of threads from people who have been burnt by F2P games, losing loads of money to these MMO cash cows. Check that out and then tell me how wonderful the so called free to play format is.

Yep... again... It's *not* a very well received payment model here, for a number of reasons. Myriad people have made that clear for a long time now. This article, and several posts in this thread (and in others) seem to completely ignore that fact. The arguments they put forth, like "people play P2P longer because they have to justify the money they're spending" or "the payment model isn't the problem, it's the game design" are red herrings, plain and simple.

The "problem" is that cash shops change the gameplay in a MMO in a very fundamental way. Also, they're marketed dishonestly - sure you can *play* for free... but how competitive do you expect to be at end-game?

These people know how competitive people are and how important it is for many to have all the best of everything... They know that many people will spend far more on RMT (buying gold, items, characters, etc) in a P2P MMO than the subscription fee alone. Time and again it's been described, by even people who like Cash Shops, that having and being the best in any F2P MMO = spending a lot of money in the cash shop. 

Originally posted by Scot

As I have heard elsewhwere the like of Perfect World was once a decent cash shop game, now it is cash cow for its owners. So enjoy your F2P game while you can, sooner or later the owners will care a little to much for the £$.

Funny... every time those who don't like cash shops explain how that will happen - albeit gradually - and that players will find themselves having to spend more and more to "keep up", they're told they don't know what they're talking about. And yet, there's a perfect example (no pun intended).

The concept of "F2P" is disingenuous marketing spin, and little more. You don't pay to buy the game and there's no set monthly fee, but the developers fully intend that their average target player is going to spend *far* more than a box purchase and sub fee in the long run. And they fully intend to make sure it happens. Remember... F2P developers are just as interested in making money as P2P developers. Their approaches are different, but their goals are the same.

I realize there are people who don't mind paying for the cash shops... and that's fine, but it's also not a strong "rebuttal". There's been people for *years* now who've spent thousands of dollars eBaying items, gold and characters in MMOs where it wasn't allowed... so it's not a surprise. The companies have simply found a way to tap into that "secondary market" and keep more for themselves... erego "F2P" MMOs with Item Malls.

Originally posted by RagnarokWar

Y'know... I see a lot of bashing of Free To Play games on here. Some do abuse their cash shop, and yes, some are really cruddy, but let's face it: It's a free game. While you're tossing cash at the developers every month saying "Can I please keep playing for the game I paid $50 for the CD for?", Free to Players are getting their games for free, and a lot are starting to catch up in content to the Paid guys. Some paid games, like RF Online, DDO, and Sword of the New World went Free to Play and have since become even more successful. Just because we aren't paying for our latest crack fix doesn't make our games junk.

Wow... talk about pure, unmitigated spin. That argument of, "I already paid for the box, why should I have to pay every month to play?" went out with the dinosaurs.

Similar to AOL, MMOs are as much "online services" as they are "games". Your monthly sub goes toward the maintenance and upkeep of said service so you can enjoy the content you paid that $50 for. You know... there *are* people there who have to keep the servers running, people who have to consistently create patches and fixes and then successfully implement and test them, etc. etc. etc. There are bandwidth costs the companies have to pay. The power being used by all those server clusters costs money.

You fail to mention, also, that most MMOs continually add new content during the life of the game without charging an additional fee above the subscription. Lineage 2 has never charged for a single update since it came out. You buy the game and every update - increasing the game to over twice its original size by now - is included, as is every future expansion. LoTRO adds entire new regions and other content without charging for a full expansion.

Seriously... that argument is so out-dated and demonstrably false that it actually surprised me to see it being made again.

I'm seriously sick of this. Sub-based gamers will say anything just to valiantly defend their MMOs when the rest of the world knows exactly what it is: You're begging the devs to play your game again, just like when a crack head needs his fix, otherwise you can never log in and play your game again. All your time and work and effort lost until you spend the cash. Every. Single. Effing. MMORPG. I HAVE EVER PLAYED. Has been a grindfest. World of Warcraft is adding level 85, and nixing, AGAIN, all the raid gear you fought so hard for, bringing new skills, more races, and more importantly, MORE IMBALANCES, and leaving the past content almost barren since no one's playing it anymore.

More spin, colored with personal bias. "Valiantly defending P2P"? Hardly... Some of us are able to see the bigger picture and aren't charmed over by the word "Free".  If anything, F2P MMOs are potentially getting *more* money out of a typical player than a P2P with a monthly sub is.

If you were talking to people with no brains, incapable of thinking and looking at things critically and who took everything at surface value.... then your bold declarations might be more persuasive. For some of us, at least, they aren't.

To state a P2P MMO is any less of a grind is utter nonsense. I grind less in Runes of Magic than I ever did in World of Warcraft. I'm leveling faster, enjoying more, and I don't have to pay for anything. Some of us choose to support the devs, some just play for free. The only MMO I've met yet that you pay for and have actually gotten my money worths forth Guild Wars, and it had no subscription based content. Each expansion pack, save Eye of the North, was stand-alone. They updated the game continually, with game balances and tweaks rather than lumping in new skills and new classes to further imbalance the game.

Yes... well that supports your point-of-view quite consistently. The only MMO worth playing for you is one that doesn't charge a monthly sub. You established that in the first paragraph.

That's my experience with this industry. I refuse to play "Pay to Play" games. I paid $50 for that game CD, and now you tell me I have no right to play the game? The devs can shove it up their rear then. The sad thing is, most Free to Play games change up the formula more than subscription MMOs, they tend to add something new and unique you'll never find in a subscription MMO. Dragonica, for instance, is an arcade-style action MMO. I don't see many of those in the Pay To Play sector. Heck, I FIRMLY believe that if Tabula Rasa had gone Free to Play with a cash shop, it'd still be alive today, and that game was more fun than half of these point-and-click armchair-general games that are flooding the market nowadays.

Wow... you're really pushing that mantra aren't you. Perhaps you think you're on to something profound and are pushing it for all its worth? Unfortunately, it's not profound at all. It's completely disingenuous and anyone who takes enough time and effort to look at the situation *rationally* instead of *emotionally* (such as yourself) can understand the difference. 

Also, again... many of us *have* played F2P MMOs.. I've played close to 10, if not that many myself. I know what the differences are between the two.

Originally posted by WSIMike

Originally posted by Scot

As I have heard elsewhwere the like of Perfect World was once a decent cash shop game, now it is cash cow for its owners. So enjoy your F2P game while you can, sooner or later the owners will care a little to much for the £$.

Funny... every time those who don't like cash shops explain how that will happen - albeit gradually - and that players will find themselves having to spend more and more to "keep up", they're told they don't know what they're talking about. And yet, there's a perfect example (no pun intended).

The concept of "F2P" is a sham... you don't pay to buy the game and there's no set monthly fee, but the developers fully intend that their average target player is going to spend *far* more than a box purchase and sub fee in the long run. And they fully intend to make sure it happens.

I realize there are people who don't mind paying for the cash shops... and that's fine, but it's also not a strong "rebuttal". There's been people for *years* now who've spent thousands of dollars eBaying items, gold and characters in MMOs where it wasn't allowed... so it's not a surprise. The companies have simply found a way to tap into that "secondary market" and keep more for themselves... erego "F2P" MMOs with Item Malls.

 

I am just curious, how does this vary from P2P?

In P2P they put in artificial constructs to get more money out of the player. This is why it is P2P... They charge you up front, and then find ways to keep charging you (expansions, etc). The less they can give you, and the more that they can sell you, the more they make...

So, how are the two different (P2P is Pay up front, F2P is Pay as you go)? In both you end up paying (that was the plan).

Originally posted by Superman0X

Originally posted by WSIMike

Originally posted by Scot

As I have heard elsewhwere the like of Perfect World was once a decent cash shop game, now it is cash cow for its owners. So enjoy your F2P game while you can, sooner or later the owners will care a little to much for the £$.

Funny... every time those who don't like cash shops explain how that will happen - albeit gradually - and that players will find themselves having to spend more and more to "keep up", they're told they don't know what they're talking about. And yet, there's a perfect example (no pun intended).

The concept of "F2P" is a sham... you don't pay to buy the game and there's no set monthly fee, but the developers fully intend that their average target player is going to spend *far* more than a box purchase and sub fee in the long run. And they fully intend to make sure it happens.

I realize there are people who don't mind paying for the cash shops... and that's fine, but it's also not a strong "rebuttal". There's been people for *years* now who've spent thousands of dollars eBaying items, gold and characters in MMOs where it wasn't allowed... so it's not a surprise. The companies have simply found a way to tap into that "secondary market" and keep more for themselves... erego "F2P" MMOs with Item Malls.

 

 

I am just curious, how does this vary from P2P?

In P2P they put in artificial constructs to get more money out of the player. This is why it is P2P... They charge you up front, and then find ways to keep charging you (expansions, etc). The less they can give you, and the more that they can sell you, the more they make...

Well, first of all, your first sentence is spin, pure and simple. The "artificial constructs" you refer to is called *content*... things to do to keep the player interested and playing so they'll continue to subscribe. Without new content, or at least without *good* new content, the game becomes stale and the players move on to something else.

The difference is that in a P2P MMO you *know* what you're getting for that $15 a month. You *know* what you're getting for that $40 expansion, and you *know* that everything available in the game is available to you purely through playing the game, as it is equally available to everyone else in the game, for the same flat rate. You *know* that a given piece of gear is available through entirely in-game means... be it by defeating the creature that drops it, completing the quest that rewards it, or earning the money in-game to buy it from another player or NPC. You're not going to have to pull out your credit card to obtain it (RMT notwithstanding). 

And really... it goes beyond even that example...

In Perfect World, you have to purchase tokens that allow you to use the global chat - that means either spending a lot of in-game money and buying it that way, or pulling out the credit card and paying to buy some from the company. Is that something players should have to pay extra for in a genre that is social by nature? I wouldn't say so.

The devs of Perfect World know MMOs are social games and thus, people are going to want to talk to each other across large areas. They're cashing in on it by making players pay for the "privilege". That is something you will *never* have to pay extra for in a P2P MMO, because it's all included as part of the base subscription, along with all the content, items, potions, trinkets, pets, mounts, etc. etc.. Those are all things available for a flat monthly sub in a P2P that are, in my experience, often only available through item malls in F2P, and for much more than $14 or $15 a month. 

... and that's just one example of how so-called "F2P" MMOs differ drastically in how they make money from P2P.  I could write entire paragraphs of examples.

Here's one more...
In a P2P MMO, where all the content is available to you for the box price and a $15 or so monthly sub, a player needs only their own time and effort to obtain the best gear to compete at the high end game, and then their own time and effort to remain there - in other words... they need only play the game and pay that flat monthly sub.

Conversely... It's been noted and demonstrated, time and again, in thread after thread, by even those who *like* the F2P model,  that in order to do the same in a typical F2P MMO that the player will not only require the time and effort involved to get there, but will very likely end up spending *far* more than $15 a month... not only to *become* competitive... but to remain competitive. I have yet to see anyone among even the strongest proponents of F2P claim that they were able to compete at the top level of the game against others without having to use item malls to do so.

It's been argued that  "not everyone wants to be that competitive, so that doesn't matter"... except that it does. The same holds true in P2P MMOs... Some people are more competitive and want to be the best. Others aren't as competitive and play casually. The difference is, the more competitive players in a P2P still pay no more a month than the less competitive ones to do so.

Again... there are myriad examples of how the F2P model differs from P2P and that, when broken down point-for-point across the board, considering all players and play styles, is not nearly as "free" as its description implies. The contrary, they can - and do - end up costing players far more than a comparable P2P MMO would... and that's exactly what the developers count on.


So, how are the two different (P2P is Pay up front, F2P is Pay as you go)? In both you end up paying (that was the plan).

Your argument has been made, and that same question has been asked and answered many times in the past, by myself and others. The differences between P2P and F2P are quite obvious to those willing to look past the "Free" part and see how the developers have actually set the games up. 

 

The proof is on the pudding, I advice anyone to try a F2p game then play a comparable P2P game.

In my opinion, the devs take more of a long term look into making a P2P. While F2P takes a close look at short term 2-3 months.

All F2P games I have played have ok/good conent tell the first class change then goes down hill. They are intended to squezze cash out of you as fast as they can becuase the simple game play gets bring after a lil bit. When you switch to P2P they wave that prized endgame to keep you developing your charecter, the conent is in more of waves, the excitment as well. In most P2P games yo will have allot of new stuff then in will get boring until you hit the next wave and then repeats.

F2P is a model I dont see working, if anything a combo might come to the west like pay per day or something.

In the end better games are still P2p and I dont see that changing.