Originally posted by Doosharm

Note to the OP: Is this what you were hoping for, to bring the CO battle to the homefront for a closer look? Well I would love to see a follow up article where you explore the issues a little more in-depth and let us know who you feel is right or wrong. Are the supporters wrong for not demanding more out of the developers or are the haters wrong for expecting too much out of a two month old game? I would love to hear what somebody involved in the industry has to say on those points.

 

Character Slots

Why would anybody need more than 8 character slots (12 of you buy the extra 4 from the CO store) in CO? Has anybody filled all 8 slots with level 40s and needs more to continue playing the game? I think 8 character slots is enough... for now.  Once more and more people start to actually USE their 8 slots for gameplay and not just making new costumes then we will probably see some more from Cryptic. I don't think there is a legitimate demand for them just two months in.

For all of those who want more just because CO puts so much of an emphasis on character creation are just being greedy. Each character gets up to 4 costume slots (6 if you buy them from the CO store). Not to mention the fact that you can create and then save as many costumes as you wish. So if you're just into making costumes you can have up to 72 (6 per toon x 12 toons) on one account (plus any saved and not used).

 

Retcons

This is, perhaps, the worst argument from the haters. The retcons are available in a number of different ways to meets the needs of the entire user base. The buyable retcons are not, in my opinion, there for people with money to blow. They are there for people who don't have enough time in-game to meet the requirements to obtain one there. That means for the casual player... not the rich player. The cost is set high initially because retcons, whether obtained in-game or through the store are supposed to be challenging to obtain to prevent people from totally changing their character any time changes are made in-game. Basically to prevent people from retconning every time a new exploit or power buff is discovered.

People need to figure out what their preferred method of obtaining a retcon is. If your method is currently implemented in-game, then I think you need to stay quiet. There is no need to complain about other methods that you never intend to use just to prevent others from being able to use them. For some people, buying a retcon from the CO store is the only way they'll ever be able to get one.

 

My biggest complaint with the CO community is that the people complaining rarely do it in a constructive way. I can't even count the number of times in any given thread somebody has claimed to have cancelled their sub or promised to do so. When I hear something like that, the author tends to loose al credibility in my eyes. I think 'This isn't someone trying to make things better, this is someone who just wants to complain and get a reaction.' And they typically do get a reaction from other members of the community and an argument ensues which completely undermines any positive suggestions thay may have otherwise come out of the discussion. The truth of the matter is that this game does have some flaws that are cause for concern. I think most people will agree to that. If people would stop complaining about the little things that don't matter in the grand scheme of things we might be able to come together as a cumminity and push for the changes that do matter.

 

Im a customer its not my job to make things better, that's the job of the publisher and the developers to reach out to their client base and ask them (me or you) what we would like to see. especially when we (me) ask for our money back. That would have been a very good time to ask me what would have kept me paying to play.
 

When somethig crappy comes on TV I dont want to watch I dont call up the cable company and tell them I like to watch old reruns of Three's Company and that if they want to keep my cash they part start playing them lol.

Besides I have offered up suggestions on the CO site in the forums as to what Id like to see in the game so I have contributed.

When I don't like the TV show Im watching I change the channel. when I dont like the MMO Im playing I switch to another MMO. It's a paid entertainment service just like cable. I never could understand all you do gooders offering up "constructive advice" on a thread like this partcular one, where it will make no difference anyways. Go to the CO site and tell them how great they are over there and tell them all yer big ideas. It may make a difference to say it directly to the devs. They don;t follow our threads on here like you might think. In fact I bet they go home at night and try to forget about all us geeks> Contrary to popular belief it's real live work for them, and most people don;t go home at night and look for public forum posts about how well they did that day at work. 

I simply stated that I had issues with the game and left as many others did. I continue to report this as I feel other consumers would like to know that I had a bad customer service experience with Cryptic/ Atari. So I'm not a troll or a flamer or any of the other geeky terms used to describe people who say negative things about these games. I'm simply a dissatisfied customer who is a little PO'd and would like to let other consumers know about my experience.

I'm a long time city of hero player so when i found out about co i was very intrested the graphics are nice but the game is just lots of fluff doesn't nothing to keep me playing doesn't have the depth or feeling that coh has so i never continued playing after my first month and went back to city of hero's it might not be as pretty as CO but it has the content and the hero feeling.

A subscription fee is fine, a cash shop can work if done well. But I refuse to play a game with both, cosmetic changes or not.

and i was correct to effectivly quit beta after hearing RMT's were in.

I don't even think imma 2nd look at STO, its going to be just more of the same.

Originally posted by Babylon9000

Im a customer its not my job to make things better, that's the job of the publisher and the developers to reach out to their client base and ask them (me or you) what we would like to see. especially when we (me) ask for our money back. That would have been a very good time to ask me what would have kept me paying to play.
 

When somethig crappy comes on TV I dont want to watch I dont call up the cable company and tell them I like to watch old reruns of Three's Company and that if they want to keep my cash they part start playing them lol.

Besides I have offered up suggestions on the CO site in the forums as to what Id like to see in the game so I have contributed.

When I don't like the TV show Im watching I change the channel. when I dont like the MMO Im playing I switch to another MMO. It's a paid entertainment service just like cable. I never could understand all you do gooders offering up "constructive advice" on a thread like this partcular one, where it will make no difference anyways. Go to the CO site and tell them how great they are over there and tell them all yer big ideas. It may make a difference to say it directly to the devs. They don;t follow our threads on here like you might think. In fact I bet they go home at night and try to forget about all us geeks> Contrary to popular belief it's real live work for them, and most people don;t go home at night and look for public forum posts about how well they did that day at work. 

I simply stated that I had issues with the game and left as many others did. I continue to report this as I feel other consumers would like to know that I had a bad customer service experience with Cryptic/ Atari. So I'm not a troll or a flamer or any of the other geeky terms used to describe people who say negative things about these games. I'm simply a dissatisfied customer who is a little PO'd and would like to let other consumers know about my experience.

I'm not sure if your comments were directed at me but since you quoted me I'll respond to you.

In no way am I suggesting that THIS is the place to either complain or offer constructive criticism for the CO devs. I was just speaking to the CO community here about the issues because it was relevant to the OP. I fully agree that it is the responsibility of the devs to reach out to the customer base for feedback, which I think the forums do.

If you made your voice heard and made a decision to leave the game, thats your deal. I have no problems with that. I also think it is important to let others know how you feel, especially because it keeps the issues that you had in the public eye and hopefully its something that will be addressed by the devs and fixed.

My main issue is that anytime we get a dissatisfied customer they feel the need to bring up any problem that has ever existed in the game, whether it has been fixed or not, and then move on to call anybody who doesn't feel the same way a fool. In no way is that helpful to anybody. But I'm not only against haters here, I have also publicly spoken out against the blind supporters who think Cryptic can do no wrong. There ARE problems with the game. And people who ignore that fact and cheer for Crytpic every time they do something right are contributing to the problem just as much by giving the devs a false sense of accomplishment.

As paying customers we all have the power to help shape the future of the game. If we all stand up and demand improvements chances are that we'll get them, maybe not immediately, but eventually. But all of the bickering and arguing amongst the community certainly doesn't help.

I bought the 6 month sub so I'll be around for at least that long. If they have ignored the major demands of the customers by that time I'll know that our voices aren't being heard and that its best to take my money elsewhere. But I feel that there is a lot of work already taking place to improve upon the game and I'm willing to wait around for them to be implemented.

In any MMO there can be a argument for a full recon, partial recon or no recon. The reasons range from allowing players to keep up with design changes to stopping players from modding their character on the fly for each mission.

But there is only one reason to allow a full recon to cost money and that reason is KERCHING! Let the £$ roll in! I can remember people saying how all the cash shop could buy you were fluff pets. This is a sign of things to come guys wake up.

Originally posted by Doosharm

I bought the 6 month sub so I'll be around for at least that long. If they have ignored the major demands of the customers by that time I'll know that our voices aren't being heard and that its best to take my money elsewhere. But I feel that there is a lot of work already taking place to improve upon the game and I'm willing to wait around for them to be implemented.

Cryptic's already bitten you for a box + 6 months. That's probably more than an average player will be spending on this game (unless he burns cash in the shop), so they're probably just fine with you quitting after all that.

Not much of negative message you're sending them. They'll get rich if you are typical.

Originally posted by Trogdorn

There are so many weaknesses in this game that it is hard to generalize which is more significant. I don't believe the retcon issue is enough to sink it on it's own but is a part of a much larger discontent. So rather than waiting for improvements, most folks, like me, vote with their feet and leave. The game could be an altaholics dream but lack of content, repetitive quests, total lack of immersiveness (not sure that is actually a word) and the worst thing of all in my opinion, being a super-hero that is far from super makes it simply not fun. Maybe the devs will listen but their track record to date is not good.

Very well put. CO has much bigger problems than this stunt they are trying to pull.

 Retcons is the least of CO's problems. 

 
Originally posted by Babylon9000

Im a customer its not my job to make things better, that's the job of the publisher and the developers to reach out to their client base and ask them (me or you) what we would like to see. especially when we (me) ask for our money back. That would have been a very good time to ask me what would have kept me paying to play.
 

When something crappy comes on TV I dont want to watch I dont call up the cable company and tell them I like to watch old reruns of Three's Company and that if they want to keep my cash they part start playing them lol.

Besides I have offered up suggestions on the CO site in the forums as to what Id like to see in the game so I have contributed.

When I don't like the TV show Im watching I change the channel. when I dont like the MMO Im playing I switch to another MMO. It's a paid entertainment service just like cable. I never could understand all you do gooders offering up "constructive advice" on a thread like this partcular one, where it will make no difference anyways. Go to the CO site and tell them how great they are over there and tell them all yer big ideas. It may make a difference to say it directly to the devs. They don;t follow our threads on here like you might think. In fact I bet they go home at night and try to forget about all us geeks> Contrary to popular belief it's real live work for them, and most people don;t go home at night and look for public forum posts about how well they did that day at work.

I simply stated that I had issues with the game and left as many others did. I continue to report this as I feel other consumers would like to know that I had a bad customer service experience with Cryptic/ Atari. So I'm not a troll or a flamer or any of the other geeky terms used to describe people who say negative things about these games. I'm simply a dissatisfied customer who is a little PO'd and would like to let other consumers know about my experience.

Originally posted by Doosharm

I'm not sure if your comments were directed at me but since you quoted me I'll respond to you.

In no way am I suggesting that THIS is the place to either complain or offer constructive criticism for the CO devs. I was just speaking to the CO community here about the issues because it was relevant to the OP. I fully agree that it is the responsibility of the devs to reach out to the customer base for feedback, which I think the forums do.

If you made your voice heard and made a decision to leave the game, thats your deal. I have no problems with that. I also think it is important to let others know how you feel, especially because it keeps the issues that you had in the public eye and hopefully its something that will be addressed by the devs and fixed.

My main issue is that anytime we get a dissatisfied customer they feel the need to bring up any problem that has ever existed in the game, whether it has been fixed or not, and then move on to call anybody who doesn't feel the same way a fool. In no way is that helpful to anybody. But I'm not only against haters here, I have also publicly spoken out against the blind supporters who think Cryptic can do no wrong. There ARE problems with the game. And people who ignore that fact and cheer for Crytpic every time they do something right are contributing to the problem just as much by giving the devs a false sense of accomplishment.

As paying customers we all have the power to help shape the future of the game. If we all stand up and demand improvements chances are that we'll get them, maybe not immediately, but eventually. But all of the bickering and arguing amongst the community certainly doesn't help.

I bought the 6 month sub so I'll be around for at least that long. If they have ignored the major demands of the customers by that time I'll know that our voices aren't being heard and that its best to take my money elsewhere. But I feel that there is a lot of work already taking place to improve upon the game and I'm willing to wait around for them to be implemented.
 

I agree with most of what you're saying.
 

I guess if you didn't get your money back on your 6mo sub so you have a vested interest in the game.

I got my cash back so I don't have the same investment as you do.

My big issue is simply that these compaines need to understand that MMOs are a form of entertainment and that we are customers. I don't feel as though I get treated as such. This is why I gave the anology of  TV shows vs MMOs. We have many choices out there now and one can switch MMOs almost as easily as switching channels. This is the best way to send these publishers the message that if they don't listen to their customers, the customers will give their money to a company that will.

Originally posted by Babylon9000

 

Im a customer its not my job to make things better, that's the job of the publisher and the developers to reach out to their client base and ask them (me or you) what we would like to see. especially when we (me) ask for our money back. That would have been a very good time to ask me what would have kept me paying to play.

 

You mean like DEMANDING for the c-Store to sell Retcon.

Good lord people Cryptic can't win.

"Retcons are too expensive in game!"

Rep: We have adjustied the economy to make retcons cheeper

"we need a way, some sort of mission for retcons!"

Dev: Working on it boss!

"Damn it let me buy a retcon!"

Dev: We have updated the C-Store with buyable Retcon

God Lord people the devs are LITTERLY GIVING YOU EVERYTHING YOU ASK FOR

And it's not good enough.

I honestly cannot fathom how anyone can defend Cryptic on how they are running Champions into the ground.

Originally posted by Danubus

I honestly cannot fathom how anyone can defend Cryptic on how they are running Champions into the ground.

"Earn money by surfing the internet"

Originally posted by nekollx

Originally posted by junzo316

Originally posted by nekollx

oh then what are the numbers. No MMO i've played gives more then 8 character slots without some special hoops to jump through.

 

just checked

Lotro gives 5

+2 when then added 2 new classes

+2 if you take the siege of mirkwook offer.

 

So its base slots is 5

CO... 8

 

City of heroes gives you 8

+4 with city of villians

+1 as a vertran reward per year

Base 8

 

looking into WoW now..seems wow Now gives you 10, can't find the early days...i dont remember having 10 when made my night elf hunter...

 

I think your numbers are a wee bit off....

 

LotRO

5 character slots X 12 servers = 60 character slots

 

CoH

8 character slots X 12 servers = 96 character slots

 

CO

8 character slots = measly

 

I'm sure WoW launched with even more servers.  So, each game offered a lot more character slots than CO did, and they were not about the character creator. 

this is where we differ then, i don't count extra servers on the totoal because i don't, and i imagine most players are the same, don't hope from server to server. we pick one we like and stay there.

At no time did you mention not counting extra servers, you just mentioned character slots.  CO is definitely lacking those compared to other games.  I, for one, had characters on multiple servers in CoX.  I started out on one server. went to another with a friend, and finally settled on Freedom, but I went back and played my other toons.  I had a massive amount of toonage on CoX (afterall its meant for altaholics). 

I know of several people that play on different servers on LotRO.  My kin has a sister kin on Landroval where many from Brandywine make alts to play. 

If you are going to count character slots, then I think you need to count all character slots that are available to the player.  This is another issue in where CO is lacking.

This was a very enjoyable read on a topic of interest to me.  This whole business of introducing RMT fees later on in development is very troubling.

Why can't companies let us know up front what the costs are going to be?  Why draw people into something first and then begin introducing additional fees after they're invested?  It just doesn't make me want to play these games.  It feels like plans are being made behind my back to manipulate me out of my cash, instead of just telling me up front how much I'll have to pay for an entertainment service.

I was all gung-ho about this game until I heard about the RMT shop, and that some of the items would impact game play.  Paying extra cash for a respec (retcon), and being told late in the development process that this is the way its going to be makes me glad I avoided this game.

I think MMO decision-makers need to stop attending conferences about incredible, new (i.e. sleazy) business models, and maybe go to some about how to make a great game.

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

This was a very enjoyable read on a topic of interest to me.  This whole business of introducing RMT fees later on in development is very troubling.

Why can't companies let us know up front what the costs are going to be?  Why draw people into something first and then begin introducing additional fees after they're invested?  It just doesn't make me want to play these games.  It feels like plans are being made behind my back to manipulate me out of my cash, instead of just telling me up front how much I'll have to pay for an entertainment service.

I was all gung-ho about this game until I heard about the RMT shop, and that some of the items would impact game play.  Paying extra cash for a respec (retcon), and being told late in the development process that this is the way its going to be makes me glad I avoided this game.

I think MMO decision-makers need to stop attending conferences about incredible, new (i.e. sleazy) business models, and maybe go to some about how to make a great game.

ARRRRG

Soooooo the fact their are 3 in gamrs way to get retcons and the players demanded paid-cons has no baring for you?

In response to this:

"Damn it let me buy a retcon!"

Dev: We have updated the C-Store with buyable Retcon"

Comments like this make it seem like players are begging for RMT items like respecs.  I don't believe that's true.  I played City of Heroes for nearly 3 years.  I never asked for the ability to buy a respec.  I never heard or saw anyone on the forums ever ask for respecs via RMT, not once.

There were an incredible number of ingame ways to get respecs.  My favourite option was the extremely well-done, enjoyable respec task-forces that allowed you to earn them via very exciting missions that were all part of an excellent story.  Respecs were also given as veteran rewards, which was a nice way to reward people for their loyalty to the game.  Later, when the auction house (all in-game currency, NO RMT) was introduced, you could also purchase (from another player) a respec.  You could also loot recipes and ingredients to craft your own respecs to use for yourself, or sell at the auction house.

You can give people respecs outright, you can let them unlock them via enjoyable content, you can allow them to loot respecs, you can allow them to purchase them for ingame cash.  You never need to introduce them as an extra charge via RMT, and if they are available to players via the more desirable avenues, you will never (no not ever) have players demanding to spend extra cash at an RMT shop for one. 

The only way I can see a player demanding to pay RMT for a respec is if they have been manuevered (i.e. manipulated) into this situation by a company that has not made them reasonably, and enjoyably available in-game.  Two thumbs down.

Bottom line: CO lacks content, and what there is could be better. The only good things are the costume editor and the graphics (though i would say the faces and animations could use some work).

And on a sidenote: What's up with comparing CO to EVE? That's almost like comparing Duke Nukem to Total Annihilation.

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

In response to this:

"Damn it let me buy a retcon!"

Dev: We have updated the C-Store with buyable Retcon"

Comments like this make it seem like players are begging for RMT items like respecs.  I don't believe that's true.  I played City of Heroes for nearly 3 years.  I never asked for the ability to buy a respec.  I never heard or saw anyone on the forums ever ask for respecs via RMT, not once.

There were an incredible number of ingame ways to get respecs.  My favourite option was the extremely well-done, enjoyable respec task-forces that allowed you to earn them via very exciting missions that were all part of an excellent story.  Respecs were also given as veteran rewards, which was a nice way to reward people for their loyalty to the game.  Later, when the auction house (all in-game currency, NO RMT) was introduced, you could also purchase (from another player) a respec.  You could also loot recipes and ingredients to craft your own respecs to use for yourself, or sell at the auction house.

You can give people respecs outright, you can let them unlock them via enjoyable content, you can allow them to loot respecs, you can allow them to purchase them for ingame cash.  You never need to introduce them as an extra charge via RMT, and if they are available to players via the more desirable avenues, you will never (no not ever) have players demanding to spend extra cash at an RMT shop for one. 

The only way I can see a player demanding to pay RMT for a respec is if they have been manuevered (i.e. manipulated) into this situation by a company that has not made them reasonably, and enjoyably available in-game.  Two thumbs down.

and yet they did demand it in the forums, and even your venerable City of Heroes offers Respec via Hero - Store.

and please dont bring up the vetran system, i swear. CO hastn even been out long enough for the first 3 month vet. CoH took years to introduce vet, don't expects EVERYTHING in 2 months.

We need more content more then we need vet reward, retcon missions, or a level cap bump.

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

Comments like this make it seem like players are begging for RMT items like respecs.  I don't believe that's true.  I played City of Heroes for nearly 3 years.  I never asked for the ability to buy a respec.  I never heard or saw anyone on the forums ever ask for respecs via RMT, not once.

At launch, CoH had no ability to respec characters. Respecs came out about six months post-launch and not being able to respec your character was a big thing. And then (as now, I believe) each of those respec trials only works once in granting the respec. Over time other methods of getting respecs - the dev-granted freespecs, ultra-expensive rare respec recipes, vet rewards, an RMT respec - were introduced so that respecing in CoH/V isn't much of an issue.

In part, you should be aware that before admonishing Cryptic for having an RMT respec available, Paragon Studios introduced it to CoH/V post-NCsoft take-over. It's $10 vs ChampO's $12.50 and is arguably less flexible than what ChampO offers.

The other part is that providing options for players is a good thing. Thus far Cryptic have been pretty good with offering free respecs to players (and we can see if that continues). But there will always be players who want different options. Some will earn enough in-game currency to spend on full respecs. Others will wait for the freespecs. And then there will be those who are happy to pay directly to get them.

I've always felt that if player attitudes about RMT on forums reflected their attitude in-game, then all gold farmer organisations would be out of business in about a fortnight. That gold farming is a multi-million dollar business indicates to me there are a lot of players out there happy to pay for in-game rewards / currency.

There are a lot of people who do a lot of things, buying gold is one of them. But that does not make it right, or mean that we secretly all want to have RMT’s in our MMO. Without gold farmers players could not amass wealth ridiculous amounts of wealth and push auction house prices through the roof.

Players pay money to distort the gameplay of the MMO. But it stops there, because MMO’s do nothing to distort the game in the same way. Then you bring in RMT’s and players have a new way to be better than the next player that has nothing to do with achievement.

If you want MMO’s to become like a funfair where your enjoyment of the game depends on how many rides you can pay for, then RMT’s are the way to go. Remember you paid your entrance fee, but there is no such thing as paying too much as far as game companies are concerned.

Originally posted by UnSub

In part, you should be aware that before admonishing Cryptic for having an RMT respec available, Paragon Studios introduced it to CoH/V post-NCsoft take-over. It's $10 vs ChampO's $12.50 and is arguably less flexible than what ChampO offers.

no argribly about it

in CO a fire/em blaster respecing is still a fire/em blaster

in CO a Fire/EM blaster can become a cold/celestial healer

Originally posted by UnSub

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

Comments like this make it seem like players are begging for RMT items like respecs.  I don't believe that's true.  I played City of Heroes for nearly 3 years.  I never asked for the ability to buy a respec.  I never heard or saw anyone on the forums ever ask for respecs via RMT, not once.

At launch, CoH had no ability to respec characters. Respecs came out about six months post-launch and not being able to respec your character was a big thing. And then (as now, I believe) each of those respec trials only works once in granting the respec. Over time other methods of getting respecs - the dev-granted freespecs, ultra-expensive rare respec recipes, vet rewards, an RMT respec - were introduced so that respecing in CoH/V isn't much of an issue.

In part, you should be aware that before admonishing Cryptic for having an RMT respec available, Paragon Studios introduced it to CoH/V post-NCsoft take-over. It's $10 vs ChampO's $12.50 and is arguably less flexible than what ChampO offers.

The other part is that providing options for players is a good thing. Thus far Cryptic have been pretty good with offering free respecs to players (and we can see if that continues). But there will always be players who want different options. Some will earn enough in-game currency to spend on full respecs. Others will wait for the freespecs. And then there will be those who are happy to pay directly to get them.

I've always felt that if player attitudes about RMT on forums reflected their attitude in-game, then all gold farmer organisations would be out of business in about a fortnight. That gold farming is a multi-million dollar business indicates to me there are a lot of players out there happy to pay for in-game rewards / currency.

The respec trials can be completed multiple times each in CoH, just so you know, and there are multiple task-forces available.  Likewise a number of other ingame options are available to get respecs (loot, rewards, auction house).

What I'm saying is that if a game has enough enjoyable ingame options to obtain a respec, respec via RMT becomes unnecessary.

P.S. I didn't like the way NCsoft began handling the game from Issue 13 until the present.  They began making unwanted revamps to core systems and just started introducing RMT for actual super-powers.  Up until this point, RMT was for costumes (and the like) only.  Now they have RMT respecs also?  Interesting.  I started to see a shift in philosophy around Issue 13, and opted out.  Many others did likewise at the same time.

I used the pre-Issue 13 model of respecs in CoH as an example of the way I like to see them done.  People were very happy with the situation during my time in the game Issue 6 to Issue 13, in my experience.   I always had a respec available when I felt I needed one, thanks to the numerous (and enjoyable) in-game options.

i'm gonna go ahead and say it. they should have just made city of heroes part 2. not make it exactly like it, but at least build on it. 

In response to the following comment:

"If you want MMO’s to become like a funfair where your enjoyment of the game depends on how many rides you can pay for, then RMT’s are the way to go. Remember you paid your entrance fee, but there is no such thing as paying too much as far as game companies are concerned."

/QFE

It's a shift in philosophy, imo, that has customers paying more for what used to be included in a monthly subscription fee.  I just don't play games based on that philosophy.  It puts you in a situation where you really don't know up front how much you're going to have to pay to enjoy yourself or be competitive.  No thanks, I want to pay a predictable fee for an entertainment service that I understand up front.  No extra fees and unpleasant surprises please.