For a failed mmo? I dont mean old mmorpgs like EQ or less successful ones like EQ2, I mean failed hard mmos like Age of Conan. Why put your resources money and time into it if your a company? Move on, and add your resources etc into trying to make a better mmo.

SOE learned their lesson, thats why you see no expansions for mmos like Vanturd and PotBS.

You need to define failure.

Before World of Warcraft incredible subscriptions, 300K customer was pretty good. I still think that when an MMO gets around 300K+ users, it's still a fairly decent success.

With that in mind, how many users does AOC has?

Originally posted by Ponico

You need to define failure.

 

Before World of Warcraft incredible subscriptions, 300K customer was pretty good. I still think that when an MMO gets around 300K+ users, it's still a fairly decent success.

With that in mind, how many users does AOC has?

You also have to understand that technology and gaming is always changing, we can agree that it cost less money to make a super nintendo game of the same genre than it would to make a PS3 game of the same genre. So if you do not get that cash flow that keeps up with technology and what is required to make the game etc than you have failed hard. 300k sub base is not bad but AOC is not even producing this number, are they even at a 100k sub base today?

Originally posted by ChrisChan

So if you do not get that cash flow that keeps up with technology and what is required to make the game etc than you have failed hard. 300k sub base is not bad but AOC is not even producing this number, are they even at a 100k sub base today?

According to who?

The only people who know work at funcom.  Beyond that its some BS about Xfire or some other random crap.. that is a "guess".

There hasn't been any indication of sub numbers from Funcom...

As far as it goes... guess what?  Every MMO that has hit 100,000 subs.. is still open... 

Actually what it comes down to is operating cost (which can include development and launch cost as ongoing) being less than you are "making".  Since we don't know what the operation cost is.. versus the "income"...

The company is obviously still around... still running Anarchy Online and working on The Secret World (and who knows what else).

They are apparantly making an expansion because they can 'afford to', want to retain their current player base or perhaps even expand it..

I'm not sure how this is a mystery?

They obviously aren't existing on "non existent funding" or "not paying their staff".. so you can't pay bills with your non existent pay check.

So beyond that I guess I'm lost... on the subject.

Originally posted by ChrisChan

Originally posted by Ponico

You need to define failure.

 

Before World of Warcraft incredible subscriptions, 300K customer was pretty good. I still think that when an MMO gets around 300K+ users, it's still a fairly decent success.

With that in mind, how many users does AOC has?

 

You also have to understand that technology and gaming is always changing, we can agree that it cost less money to make a super nintendo game of the same genre than it would to make a PS3 game of the same genre. So if you do not get that cash flow that keeps up with technology and what is required to make the game etc than you have failed hard. 300k sub base is not bad but AOC is not even producing this number, are they even at a 100k sub base today?

It's no easier or cheaper to make a UO today then it did when UO was in development. MMOs are extremely time consuming to create. It's cheaper to make an expansion than to make a different game, that expansion could possibly bring more subs to the game.

Does it bother you that much that the AoC people are making an expansion that much? (I assume they are? I don't follow it) I don't know what it cost to make AoC, but 100k subs really isn't all that bad. 100k * $15 = $150,000/mo gross. I don't think AoC was an extremely high budget game (like $10mil or something?), so they've probably beaten their profit mark already and from there on it only matters about keeping people paid, keeping servers running, and keeping the profit growing. If there are people playing the game and having fun in the game, then they should keep the servers alive and the game growing if it keeps those people happy. Again, 100k is quite a bit of people.

Where as you mentioned SOE. SOE are abunch of money grubbing whores. They would not only sell their grandma for a penny, if they had to cut her up and sell her in pieces to pay for what food she ate, they would do that too.

Originally posted by TheHatter 

I don't know what it cost to make AoC, but 100k subs really isn't all that bad. 100k * $15 = $150,000/mo gross.

It's $1.5m/month, not 150k.

I don't think AoC was an extremely high budget game (like $10mil or something?), so they've probably beaten their profit mark already and from there on it only matters about keeping people paid, keeping servers running, and keeping the profit growing. If there are people playing the game and having fun in the game, then they should keep the servers alive and the game growing if it keeps those people happy. Again, 100k is quite a bit of people.

I read somewhere that AoC cost $40m to develop. I'd estimate the running costs at $10m/year.

They sold 750k boxes, so at an estimated $30/box profit, that's ~$22.5m. Add in a years worth of dwindling subscriptions and they'll be well into the black in regards to recouperating their development costs.

I wouldn't consider 100k subscriptions to be a significant success, but it's definately still a viable MMO providing that the subscriptions don't keep decreasing. New content is key to player retention.

Originally posted by ChrisChan

Originally posted by Ponico

You need to define failure.

 

Before World of Warcraft incredible subscriptions, 300K customer was pretty good. I still think that when an MMO gets around 300K+ users, it's still a fairly decent success.

With that in mind, how many users does AOC has?

 

You also have to understand that technology and gaming is always changing, we can agree that it cost less money to make a super nintendo game of the same genre than it would to make a PS3 game of the same genre. So if you do not get that cash flow that keeps up with technology and what is required to make the game etc than you have failed hard. 300k sub base is not bad but AOC is not even producing this number, are they even at a 100k sub base today?

Trust me mate :)

I perfectly understand Technology and the ever changing world it is into. It is thanks to this very industry I can eat and sleep under a roof.

making an expansion is a good way to boost up some profit and extend the life of a game. Every product that comes out generates a hype. Which means, the AOC expansion might actually bring in many more players.

Also... you are GREATLY mistaken on how much it cost in game production.

SNES games were pretty complicated to code and of course, yes PS3 is also pretty nuts... However, I've made huge maps on unreal Tournament 99 engine and with today's unreal 3 editor, I can do 500 times more things in only a fraction of a time. I run a small Recording studio here where I live, it's a hobby and I sometimes get to make a few theme songs for indie games. Making a theme song for a game back in 1998 was a lot more complicated then today. Back then, I had to record all my sounds, sample them properly into various hardware and etc... Today, I load up a bunch of VSTI and Pro-Tools, I plug in my favorite midi keyboard and in less then 1 hour, I've made 4 songs (conceptual version of course).

www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm

Check out Symphony of One Night that was made back in early 2000. That song took me weeks to perfect and that's only the "demo" version. Now check the next under it known as "unique"... that version took me a few hours to build and I am actually playing every instruments live on that one.

Basically, everything is scaling... it cost more to make games today but everything is more expensive... however, today you can do much more within the same time frame of the 90s.

100K subs is good too btw. :)

Originally posted by ChrisChan

Originally posted by Ponico

You need to define failure.

 

Before World of Warcraft incredible subscriptions, 300K customer was pretty good. I still think that when an MMO gets around 300K+ users, it's still a fairly decent success.

With that in mind, how many users does AOC has?

 

You also have to understand that technology and gaming is always changing, we can agree that it cost less money to make a super nintendo game of the same genre than it would to make a PS3 game of the same genre. So if you do not get that cash flow that keeps up with technology and what is required to make the game etc than you have failed hard. 300k sub base is not bad but AOC is not even producing this number, are they even at a 100k sub base today?

You must also take into consideration the fact you can use a language such as c++ to write game for a PS3 while you had to write instructions for the Ricoh 5A22 CPU manually (assembler) on SNES. 1 hour of work in c++ would probably estimate around 1 day of work in assembler.

Vanguard had an expansion a few months ago (i think, i remember there being new content added and max level went up to 55) and potbs have one in the making, in the end those games still have a market and the company must provide to that market otherwise those people will get bored and move on.

You also have to take into account that an expansion builds off a game that already exists. Therefore they can reuse art assets and other systems as well as adding new systems and new art.

Most times the stuff that is crammed into the expansion is something like 40% new game and 60% optimizations that were worked on at the same time as the expansion and probably deemed too heavy to add to a patch. So instead of throwing out multiple weeks worth of patches they instead do it all in one shot.

Most MMO expansions dont even equal more than 20% of the already established game world and are usually in concept phase along with the game itself, worked on after launch by a smaller portion of the overall dev team and released when they feel its ready and/or the game needs it. Because what fun is an MMO when you have the same content/story lines/characters for the entire life of the game? Sure they can add free content updates to prolong the life of the game, but expansions usually add much more than just content.

Business 101:  It is easier to retain your current customers than it is to attract new customers.

On top of that an expansion can be made in around a years time and sell for as much as the original box.  Plus it helps retain players and attract back former players. 

An mmo that doesn't evolve and expand is an mmo with an expiration date. 

Over expansion can be just as deadly to a game as not expanding. 

Success or failure is completely and totally subjective in this business. Everyone needs to get out of the ridiculous mind set that an MMOG needs a certain number of box sales, subscriptions, or be under a certain amount of issues at launch to be considered a success. The only entity that can measure the success of a venture is the person that profits from that venture (I mean like financially). For any given company that might be 10,000 box sales and subscribers or it could be 1 million... Anyone here plugging a number into the slot is just them trying to bolster their point with "facts & figures" that are meaningless.

Originally posted by Darkholme

Success or failure is completely and totally subjective in this business. Everyone needs to get out of the ridiculous mind set that an MMOG needs a certain number of box sales, subscriptions, or be under a certain amount of issues at launch to be considered a success. The only entity that can measure the success of a venture is the person that profits from that venture (I mean like financially). For any given company that might be 10,000 box sales and subscribers or it could be 1 million... Anyone here plugging a number into the slot is just them trying to bolster their point with "facts & figures" that are meaningless.

That having been said, as for the answer to the OPs question for the thread, I think Daffid011 pretty much nailed it... and yes, it's just that simple.

8)

Originally posted by ChrisChan

For a failed mmo? I dont mean old mmorpgs like EQ or less successful ones like EQ2, I mean failed hard mmos like Age of Conan. Why put your resources money and time into it if your a company? Move on, and add your resources etc into trying to make a better mmo.

SOE learned their lesson, thats why you see no expansions for mmos like Vanturd and PotBS.

Several reasons.

One, just because a game like AoC didn't do well as expected doesn't mean that they throw the baby out with the bathwater. They have a lot invested in the game. If they can boost subs and sales to an acceptable rate then they owe it to themselves to do so.

Secondly they owe it to their investors. You don't just say "hey, we messed up, oh well, what else can we do". Investors expect returns. If investors feel that a company hasn't used their money wisely, hasn't done all that they can to capitalize on their investment then the company can be taken to court. It's not a game and it certainly goes beyond a hobby.

Remember, they don't just make games for fickle players. They make games because its their job and because others are investing in them. They need to eat, pay bills, invest for the future and prodcue acceptable returns to their investors.

Successful is not what players say, successful is what they can show at the end of a quarter or even fiscal year that indicates significant profit has been made so that they can keep their jobs and continue.

Originally posted by Yohanu

Originally posted by ChrisChan

Originally posted by Ponico

You need to define failure.

 

Before World of Warcraft incredible subscriptions, 300K customer was pretty good. I still think that when an MMO gets around 300K+ users, it's still a fairly decent success.

With that in mind, how many users does AOC has?

 

You also have to understand that technology and gaming is always changing, we can agree that it cost less money to make a super nintendo game of the same genre than it would to make a PS3 game of the same genre. So if you do not get that cash flow that keeps up with technology and what is required to make the game etc than you have failed hard. 300k sub base is not bad but AOC is not even producing this number, are they even at a 100k sub base today?

You must also take into consideration the fact you can use a language such as c++ to write game for a PS3 while you had to write instructions for the Ricoh 5A22 CPU manually (assembler) on SNES. 1 hour of work in c++ would probably estimate around 1 day of work in assembler.

 

Heh, I didn't know that.

int x=5, y=10, z;

z=x+y;

--------

.data

x SWORD 5

y SWORD 10

z SWORD ?

.code

mov eax, x

add eax,y

mov z,eax

lol he's not lying about the 1hr C++ = 1day ASM.

Originally posted by TheHatter

Originally posted by Yohanu

Originally posted by ChrisChan

Originally posted by Ponico

You need to define failure.

 

Before World of Warcraft incredible subscriptions, 300K customer was pretty good. I still think that when an MMO gets around 300K+ users, it's still a fairly decent success.

With that in mind, how many users does AOC has?

 

You also have to understand that technology and gaming is always changing, we can agree that it cost less money to make a super nintendo game of the same genre than it would to make a PS3 game of the same genre. So if you do not get that cash flow that keeps up with technology and what is required to make the game etc than you have failed hard. 300k sub base is not bad but AOC is not even producing this number, are they even at a 100k sub base today?

You must also take into consideration the fact you can use a language such as c++ to write game for a PS3 while you had to write instructions for the Ricoh 5A22 CPU manually (assembler) on SNES. 1 hour of work in c++ would probably estimate around 1 day of work in assembler.

 

 

Heh, I didn't know that.

 

 

int x=5, y=10, z;

z=x+y;

--------

.data

x SWORD 5

y SWORD 10

z SWORD ?

.code

mov eax, x

add eax,y

mov z,eax

 

lol he's not lying about the 1hr C++ = 1day ASM.

 

I think that's conservative... Given the debugging options with ASM vs C++ as well as the IDE features you have now.
A bug that could take 1 hour to spot and fix with profiling and visual debugging would probably be a week long endevour back in the day, that is if they could even figure it out.

Because expansions cost less money and takes a smaller team to do.  For a game that didn't do very well initially, the company may not have the funding to create a brand new game which would cost $30+ mil and a large development team.  You can settle for less by creating an expansion and hopefully to regain some interest, and get some subscribers back.  All for a much smaller price tag and a much smaller dev team.

You think all companies got millions to spend at their disposal?  Try courting for investors when your first game didn't end up well, it isn't easy heh.  Although AoC actually sold plenty of copies so without knowing how much it cost them to make the game, it's hard to say if they broke even and are making a profit right now even with a smaller population base.  If they're out of the red, I can totally see justification to make an expansion for the game.